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Single bus bar

pitterpat

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I think I already know the answer to this question but I will ask it anyway. In the picture you will see that there is only a single bus bar in the subpanel in my Gar 2. I was getting ready to wire my other breakers when I realized this and I have 4 more breakers to put in (3- single pole & 1 double pole), but there are not enough open spaces on the bus bar to put all the neutrals and grounds. Here's the question and don't kill me, I will do it right: Can I double up anything on the bus bar.....if not can I add a bus bar? Or is there anything else that I can do to rectify this other than changing out that breaker box?
Sorry for the crappy pictures, they are from my iphone.
 

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pitterpat

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I think I have my answer....if I wire nut some of the neutrals together or some of the grounds together respectively, then pigtail them to the bus bar that will be ok. Correct?
 

jkeyser14

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Two things:

1) Is this garage attached or detached? If it's attached, the sub panel is supposed to have the ground and neutral wired to separate bus bars. If detached and your garage has its own grounding rod then the current wiring is ok.

2) To answer your question, yes. If you go to your big box store or electrical distributor you can buy an add on bus bar for under $10.
 

jkeyser14

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I think I have my answer....if I wire nut some of the neutrals together or some of the grounds together respectively, then pigtail them to the bus bar that will be ok. Correct?

You cannot pigtail the neutrals like you are describing because they are current carrying conductors. I'm not sure what code says about the grounds though, maybe someone else could chime in about that.
 

Speedy Petey

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Ground of the same size you can double or even triple up on the bar, or pigtail them. This is NOT ok for neutrals, and ESPECIALLY do not do pigtail them!
 

Speedy Petey

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1) Is this garage attached or detached? If it's attached, the sub panel is supposed to have the ground and neutral wired to separate bus bars. If detached and your garage has its own grounding rod then the current wiring is ok.
For a detached sub-panel a ground rod is/was always required. What determined if the neutral bar is bonded or not is what kind of feeder was run. Meaning was a dedicated equipment ground run. The ground rod has NOTHING to do with this.
 

Charles (in GA)

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The decal or placard that is on the inside of the cover will tell you how many wires are allowed under one screw on the ground/neutral bar. Look where the torque specs are and it will have a box for the ground bar. It will have something like (1 or 2) 14 or 12 meaning that you can have one or two wires of 14 or 12 gauge. It probably will only allow one neutral wire under a screw and one or two ground wires under a screw.

As noted, you can add a ground bar on the other side of the panel, the panel is pre punched with holes for the screws to thread into. Run your grounds to it, and make sure your existing neutral bar on the right is insulated from the box and does not have a jumper strap to the box or a screw thru it to the box. It should be electrically insulated from the box.

Charles
 

jkeyser14

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For a detached sub-panel a ground rod is/was always required. What determined if the neutral bar is bonded or not is what kind of feeder was run. Meaning was a dedicated equipment ground run. The ground rod has NOTHING to do with this.

I think you misread what I posted... I said that if it was detached it should have a ground rod and bonded neutral/grounds.
 

brewchief

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I think you misread what I posted... I said that if it was detached it should have a ground rod and bonded neutral/grounds.

Detached should be 4 wire feeder and seperated ground and neutral.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
 

Speedy Petey

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OK, not to take this too far OT.

The ground rod is NOT the issue. All panels in detached structures require(d) a grounding electrode.

Whether a 3-wire or 4-wire feeder was run determines if the neutrals are bonded.
3-wire feeders were still legal up until recently in many areas.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I think you misread what I posted... I said that if it was detached it should have a ground rod and bonded neutral/grounds.

I think you're not understanding the proper wiring method! Ground rods have ALWAYS been required for a detached structure no matter what type of feeder was used. That is separate from the requirement to isolate the neutral and ground bus bars, which is required in all subpanels unless the feeder and wiring was done back when 3-wire feeds were still allowed!
 
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pitterpat

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Thanks! Didn't mean to open up a hornet's nest.:thumbup: 4 wire.

BTW, just looked at that picture in the thread....it's horrible!!
 

ishiboo

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I didn't see attached vs detached answered - if this is detached, he will be at 7 circuits and require a disconnect means but not have room for one.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I didn't see attached vs detached answered - if this is detached, he will be at 7 circuits and require a disconnect means but not have room for one.

No one addressed this because its not an issue in this case. He said he will be adding 3 SPs and 1 double. That's 4 disconnects and the existing DP equals 5 not 7!
 

ishiboo

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No one addressed this because its not an issue in this case. He said he will be adding 3 SPs and 1 double. That's 4 disconnects and the existing DP equals 5 not 7!

Ah sorry, you're right... it's disconnects and not circuits. I never really deal with it as I always have a local main disconnect :)
 
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pitterpat

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#4? And its THHN I assume. Why #4 on 50a? Is it a long run?


About a 100 ft total, is that what you consider a long run? 60 ft underground in conduit, 8-10 ft up the back of the garage and 22 ft from back to front of gar. to the breaker box. Also, my HVAC buddy that installed it for me is old school, rather over compensate than be sorry.
 

jkeyser14

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I think you're not understanding the proper wiring method! Ground rods have ALWAYS been required for a detached structure no matter what type of feeder was used. That is separate from the requirement to isolate the neutral and ground bus bars, which is required in all subpanels unless the feeder and wiring was done back when 3-wire feeds were still allowed!

I understand perfectly, but you guys aren't using your brains. Look at his picture. It shows one larger gauge ground wire and one larger gauge neutral wire. So what I said is correct. Assuming this is a detached structure he either has a 3 wire feeder with with bonded neutral/ground where the ground goes to the ground rod or he has a 4 wire feeder which is improperly bonded and he is missing a ground rod. Three wire feeders were and still are legal in the NEC if it existed pre-2008.
 

randomtwinkie

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From the title in the new posts section I was picturing some sort of bar in part of a school bus in a garage somewhere, serving the libations out the windows...
 

wyliesdiesels

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About a 100 ft total, is that what you consider a long run? 60 ft underground in conduit, 8-10 ft up the back of the garage and 22 ft from back to front of gar. to the breaker box. Also, my HVAC buddy that installed it for me is old school, rather over compensate than be sorry.

Well for a normal 50a branch circuit @ that distance, #6 would be more than sufficient. But this is feeding an AC, if I remember right. Without the FLC of the unit, I can't calculate the proper wire size, but your contractor probably sized it right!

@Jkeyser- I went back and looked @ the pic again and your missing something:

....It shows one larger gauge ground wire and one larger gauge neutral wire. So what I said is correct.

Yes, he already said he has a 4-wire feeder.

Assuming this is a detached structure he either has a 3 wire feeder with bonded neutral/ground where the ground goes to the ground rod

No, incorrect, the ground/egc/neutral in a 3-wire feeder always goes back to the service main or subpanel its originating from NOT the ground rods! If this wire went to the ground rods like you're suggesting INSTEAD of the neutral bar in the feeding panel, how would u have a solid neutral return path for 120v loads? A separate wire, usually bare #6 cu called the GEC goes to the ground rods. This is what you're missing and basing your incorrect statement off of! And it appears in the photo that there is a bare #6 cu in the panel.

...or he has a 4 wire feeder which is improperly bonded and he is missing a ground rod. Three wire feeders were and still are legal in the NEC if it existed pre-2008.

Yes, he has a 4-wire feeder and yes you're right about this. His neutrals need to be isolated from the ground bus bar and the panel enclosure. But how does the neutral and ground being bonded in the panel tell you that he's missing a ground rod? He could still have ground rods regardless if the panel was mis-wired! I think you're not using your brain here or u don't know, like I said above, that a separate wire, called the GEC goes to the ground rods. So he should have a green ground feeder wire AND a bare #6 cu going to the ground bus bar. If he had a 3-wire feeder, then no need for an isolated neutral bar BUT there would still be a separate GEC going from the neutral/ground bar to the ground rods!
 
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wyliesdiesels

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O my mistake. You said HVAC guy so I assumed it was feeding an A/C unit! So #6 would have been sufficient.
 
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jkeyser14

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Yes, he already said he has a 4-wire feeder.

He hadn't stated that when I first posted.

No, incorrect, the ground/egc/neutral in a 3-wire feeder always goes back to the service main or subpanel its originating from NOT the ground rods! If this wire went to the ground rods like you're suggesting INSTEAD of the neutral bar in the feeding panel, how would u have a solid neutral return path for 120v loads? A separate wire, usually bare #6 cu called the GEC goes to the ground rods. This is what you're missing and basing your incorrect statement off of! And it appears in the photo that there is a bare #6 cu in the panel.

What are you talking about? The neutral would still be going back as a return path. Also, I don't see a #6 solid bare conductor anywhere in that panel.

Yes, he has a 4-wire feeder and yes you're right about this. His neutrals need to be isolated from the ground bus bar and the panel enclosure. But how does the neutral and ground being bonded in the panel tell you that he's missing a ground rod?

Again, I'm not seeing a conductor large enough to be going to a grounding rod. Where's the #6 solid conductor in that picture?
 

wyliesdiesels

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What are you talking about? The neutral would still be going back as a return path. Also, I don't see a #6 solid bare conductor anywhere in that panel.

In your previous comment that I quoted, u said:

Assuming this is a detached structure he either has a 3 wire feeder with bonded neutral/ground where the ground goes to the ground rod...

I took the words in italics to mean that u were saying the neutral/egc in the feeder would go to the rods since u said ground aka. egc and not GEC. My mistake!

Again, I'm not seeing a conductor large enough to be going to a grounding rod. Where's the #6 solid conductor in that picture?

I'm on a cell phone so the proportions could be wrong but it looks like the bare cu going vertically and underneath the black and white wires on the breaker may be #6 cu bare. Of course, the pic is horrible...
 
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pitterpat

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In your previous comment that I quoted, u said:



I took the words in italics to mean that u were saying the neutral/egc in the feeder would go to the rods since u said ground aka. egc and not GEC. My mistake!



I'm on a cell phone so the proportions could be wrong but it looks like the bare cu going vertically and underneath the black and white wires on the breaker may be #6 cu bare. Of course, the pic is horrible...


Yeah, that is a horrible picture....too lazy to take real camera out to the garage. Sorry!

Now the next question:
I am thinking of buying a 100 amp panel that has a dedicated 100 amp disconnect and is a larger box. I bought this panel at Menards, and since I cut the box their website says it will be subject to a 25% restocking fee...that's OK since I only pad $20 so I will get $15 back to put on the new box.
 
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pitterpat

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OK, took out that box and returned it to Menard. Got a 100 amp box with the dedicated 100 amp main breaker. It is a bigger box, almost too big but it was the "value pack" so I got 100 amp box & 5 20 amp breakers for $52.00.(I would have rather had the 23' height box but it was $49.95 & did not include the 5 20 amp breakers)....I know I'll never run out of room. I also took back 4-20 amp single breakers that I had bought.

Out to get it mounted!
 
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