Is a high lift door possible for me?

TurboFan · Nov 13, 2005

Hi Guys,

I have a double car garage (door is 7' tall, made up of 4 21" high sections) with a "Overhead Door" screw drive opener. The problem is that the rails are 7' 3" high and I am wanting to put a 4 post lift in there to stack two cars. My actual ceiling is 11' high but the gotcha is that I have a support beam that runs side to side across the whole garage. Its lowest point is 9' 8" above the floor. The beam's front face (closest side to the driveway) is 7' 7.5" from the inside face of the wooden garage door frame. Because my garage is so shallow, the lift will be close to the door frame. This means that the door will have to go as straight up as possible and then back... it's not so much that it needs to hug the ceiling, I just can't have it any lower than the 9' 8" beam (including the opener, rail, etc.). 9' 8" *just* barely gives me the minimum clearance to stack my two cars with the Revolution lift.

I had the guys from "Overhead Door" come out and they said that the opener would have to hang down below the beam because of the extra segment(s) they would be adding to the door and how it would still require the door opener to be as far back as it currently is. Then he said I could do it with a manual door and no opener because that door would be able to go up more, then back, and yet not require the extra segment(s). Then after he left I spoke to him again and he mentioned some kind of "side jack" opener that would mount to the side and possibly allow the door to be up in that pocket, but he wasn't sure exactly if it would work, etc. It's been a painful week of waiting for a response and so I'm trying to do some research on my own. Given the dimensions I listed, is this situation do-able? I'm willing to get another door if that's what it takes, but I have to have an automatic opener (telling the wife that I traded her garage door opener for my lift is not going to make for a pleasant situation :evil:

)

I've attached a few pictures to help show what I'm talking about. I've seen some other high-lift discussions on here, but didn't see anybody else that had this stupid support beam in their way. *Hopefully* there is a way to make this happen!!

Thanks,
Jeff

Donzi4me · Nov 13, 2005

It looks like if you can get the high lift tracks and a torsion bar mounted opener, it may just clear. But not to many people have have good luck with those openers. I believe they are the Wayne Dalton I-Drives. Another option may be a commercial roll up door.

nova65ss · Nov 14, 2005

You can get the door up all the way to the ceiling but you will not be able to use the door opener. I have seen openers mounted on the floor running vertically along the side of the door with an arm that mounts to the bottom section. Or you can get a miracle opener,

http://miracleinstrument.com/garage.html

Jimmy

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

Jimmy, do you have any brand names or links to the side-mounted style of opener that would hook to the bottom segment? That sounds like it would be perfect for me.

Thanks!
Jeff

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

Ok, so I just got a call back from overhead door... Jimmy, I read in other posts of yours that you actually do this sort of thing for a living. Can you tell me if this deal sounds "fair" or if I'm being taken to the cleaners?

They are quoting me $3500 installed for a new double steel insulated double-wide door, with a high lift setup and a side mount screw drive opener. They said this will do everything I need and put the entire door above the 9' 8" mark. The door, rails, spring, etc. are $3000 installed and the opener is $500 installed, so obviously the door is the big chunk. It's got extra sections up top and it goes up 36" vertically higher than my current setup before turning and going back.

$3500 sounds crazy on the one hand since that's more than the lift, but considering my situation I'm wondering if it isn't my best option since they will guarantee that it works properly and deal with any headaches if they come up (I've dealt with these guys before and they do seem to have good service and support).

any thoughts?

Thanks!
Jeff

bmwpower · Nov 14, 2005

You may have read some of my posts before. I paid around $2300 for 2 - 9'x7', 2" thick insulated doors with high lift track installed. No openers yet, but I'm setup for side mount commercial operators (got the solid shaft torsion bar and wired power to the side of each door).

I think high lift is the only option for you. Just be sure all the problems I've had do not happen to you.

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

Actually I hadn't seen any of your posts. I will search for them, but is there something in particular that I should look out for? If you paid $2300 for a 9' wide door, then I guess $3000 is pretty fair for a 16' wide one?

Thanks,
Jeff

logical · Nov 14, 2005

I think he got two of them for $2300. I don't know why a 16 ft wide insulated steel door would be more than $1500 installed and the extra track and complicated opener shouldn't be more than another $1000.

I guess I'm wondering why you are getting a new door and not just new track/opener.?

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

They said I need a new door because a) I need extra sections added to the top and b) I need the stronger industrial style construction to be able to handle the extra stress of the side pull opener. Then the extra weight of this heavier duty door requires beefier tracks and a stronger spring and cabling. Plus its not anywhere close to an off the shelf item, it's a custom made special order door that will take a month to get here so I'm sure that increases the cost vs. the hundreds of standard doors that are in their warehouse here in town.

Thoughts on all of that?

And you're right, I misread his post that it was for 2 doors... But are those doors actually only 7' tall? They are telling me I have to have doors with extra sections above to make the opener work properly. They won't do any kind of side mounted (up and down) opener for liability reasons.

trovato · Nov 14, 2005

From reading these threads over the past months, I get the impression that pricing on doors and their installation varies quite a bit geographically. You may not be able to get realistic price guidance from people in other areas.

bmwpower · Nov 14, 2005

TurboFan said:
They said I need a new door because a) I need extra sections added to the top and b) I need the stronger industrial style construction to be able to handle the extra stress of the side pull opener. Then the extra weight of this heavier duty door requires beefier tracks and a stronger spring and cabling. Plus its not anywhere close to an off the shelf item, it's a custom made special order door that will take a month to get here so I'm sure that increases the cost vs. the hundreds of standard doors that are in their warehouse here in town.

Thoughts on all of that?

And you're right, I misread his post that it was for 2 doors... But are those doors actually only 7' tall? They are telling me I have to have doors with extra sections above to make the opener work properly. They won't do any kind of side mounted (up and down) opener for liability reasons.

My door is a commercial type Clopay door. It took 4-5 weeks to get everything in.

Not sure about the changing of the door, but on other aspects they are incorrect. You can have either doors with more sections (since a normal opener cannot pull the door that far up and then back) or you can have side mounted operator. I chose the side mounted commercial operator since it was a cheaper option since I can get one cheaper than they were offering and install it myself without much trouble. It actually worked out to be more for the added sections I needed for both doors. Granted I'm going up to 13' height, so I needed more sections.

The thing with commercial operators is that they do not come standard with IR sensors, etc. So if your car is under the door when you close it, the car takes a hit from the door (here's where the liability comes into play). You can get these as options without much trouble. I've seen multiple companies sell these accessories.

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

From reading these threads over the past months, I get the impression that pricing on doors and their installation varies quite a bit geographically. You may not be able to get realistic price guidance from people in other areas.

that's a valid point for sure. I just wanted to make sure somebody wasn't going to say "holy %%%%, $3500 should buy you 3 of those setups!" or something crazy like that. Even the dealer here acknowledged that it was expensive (preceeded the quote by saying "are you sitting down?"). My current double door and screw drive opener goes for about $1250 installed from these same guys. So this new setup really is expensive, even relative to other products from the same dealer.

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

bmwpower said:
Not sure about the changing of the door, but on other aspects they are incorrect. You can have either doors with more sections (since a normal opener cannot pull the door that far up and then back) or you can have side mounted operator. I chose the side mounted commercial operator since it was a cheaper option since I can get one cheaper than they were offering and install it myself without much trouble. It actually worked out to be more for the added sections I needed for both doors. Granted I'm going up to 13' height, so I needed more sections.

are you saying you can have a high lift door, that goes vertical 36" before going back, yet doesn't have any extra segments (i.e. it's only 7' tall itself) as long as you use a side mount opener? If so, has anybody here actually done this?

MyMopar · Nov 14, 2005

Someone already posted this, but curious as to why you wouldn't want to look into the roll up over head door? No tracks anywhere to worry about.

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

is there a picture of this somewhere? the way i am picturing it in my mind there would be a big "roll" in the top front corner of the garage... i need as much clearance there as possible because the car will be lifted up into that area... the regular style non-rollup door will do more of "straight up, then back" thing vs. being a big roll in one spot... But again, i've never actually seen one of these... the other concern is, could it be made to look like my other door on the outside. With the setup I was quoted, this new double door would exactly match the remaining single door so the front of my house wouldn't look ridiculous (another one of the wife's crazy requirements! :lol_hitti

)

Thanks,
jeff

nova65ss · Nov 14, 2005

You definitely don't want a roll up door, your house would look like a mini-storage unit :scared:

The only way to use an operator with one is a comm. jackshaft operator which isn't very safe and they do not warranty them for resid. use.

3500 seems pretty high but Overhead Door always is. There is no need for dummy sections if you will be using a side mounted screwdrive. The opener basically mounts to the floor and the rail and motor go up from the floor. The motor would basically be near the top corner of the door. The arm extends out to the lower section which draws the door up and from there. A Genie screwdrive shouldn't be anymore than 150 bucks at the hardware store so 500 is out of line even with the odd installation.

If it were me I would call someone else and have them just add tracks, cables, drums, and springs. There is no reason that they couldn't get that door within about 4 inches of the ceilings. From the looks of the picture you will need to have the jambs extended up for them to attach the taller tracks to. Let me know what you find out.

Jimmy

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

Jimmy, thanks for responding!

If you were doing this job, what would you guys bid it at (ballpark)? By "pretty high" are you saying that it should be more like $3000 or is this really only a $1500 job? It does sound like I would be getting a much better door out of this, but obviously at a cost. With winter coming quickly, I unfortunately don't have much time to experiment, so having them guarantee a complete, working solution does merit a little extra cost in my book.

Again, I really appreciate the feedback!

Thanks,
Jeff

nova65ss · Nov 14, 2005

For an 18 x 8 steel back insulated door with high lift installed we get about 1500 bucks. You only have a 16 x 7, I can tell because you only have 1 spring. Very rarely will any manuf. install a 1 spring setup on an 18 x 7.

Now that I look at it you already have the opener it just needs to be mounted on the side. Your door is already insulated so you won't see much gain in that regard with the double insulated.

Jimmy

bmwpower · Nov 14, 2005

Here's my doors. I wanted a lot of lift so I would have no clearance issues when the lift goes in.

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

Talking with you guys has led me to the following conclusion: "screw this" :rocker:

I'm sitting here realizing that I have thousands of dollars worth of welders, benders, cutters, and other tools right here in my garage and yet I'm thinking about paying big $$$ for what looks like it could be a weekend project. What kind of sense does that make?

BMWpower: your pics confirm my suspicion that the door tracks would have to come slightly away from the door frame in order to allow the door to lift. I'm assuming I can buy garage door rail in straights and bends at a place like Home Depot? If so, I can cut and weld to alter the radius if needed but that just leaves me with the whole spring/cable thing. I have a feeling that this part of the system isn't quite as simple as it may seem. If I'm using my same door, is there any reason why I would need a different spring and/or cables? Perhaps longer cables since the spring will be higher up? What sort of "Here lies Jeff, He Died Working on His Garage Door" issues are there in this spring? I mean, is it wound up under a ton of pressure as it sits right now on the wall? I'm assuming it would be under the least pressure when the door is up, correct?

I figure if they are going to replace my door, tracks and opener anyway, and not offer me any trade in amount, then what do i have to lose? Even if I completely screw everything up, it won't cost me any more to have them come in and do their thing down the road... and I'm guessing that I can shave 4 weeks off this project by doing this all myself!!

Someone tell me I'm crazy or I'm gonna tell OD that I pass tomorrow.

Thanks,
Jeff

Stuart in MN · Nov 14, 2005

BMWPower's high lift door above is the way to go, but here's another idea.

I have a four post hoist in my garage with one car parked above the other, and when the hoist is lifted I can't open the garage door all the way as its top edge would run into the rear window of the car on the hoist. However, I can open the door part way, and it's high enough to drive the lower car in and out without any problems. So, I simply clamped a Vise-grip on the rail to serve as an upper stop for the door so I won't accidentally open it too far. I don't have an opener on that door, but if you have one you can adjust the travel on so it will stop partway up if necessary.

I do have to duck my head to walk in and out of that garage door, but it's not a big deal.

bmwpower · Nov 14, 2005

Jeff,
You will need more than a few pieces of track. There are also different offset roller mounts that allow the door to pull away from the wall as the door goes up. The higher the door is lifted, the more power you will need to lift it, hence the bigger spring. How big? I have no idea. You will also need longer cables and probably bigger drums on the end of the torsion bar. You might be able to get away with doing the project yourself if you have a wealth of supplies on hand. All it takes is you not being able to locate one strange part that will stop the project in its tracks (no pun intended). It might not hurt to get ahold of the company that makes the door to find out what parts you need. And maybe they'll be kind enough to help you source them. That's basically what my installers had to do, since my doors were like nothing they've ever installed before.

Even though I had a hell of a time getting the installers to do the right thing, I don't know if I would ever want to tackle a job like this myself. One false move and the tension in those springs will cause some major damage to anything in their path. Each one of my springs is wound about 20 times, if I remember correctly.... and they are preloaded when the door is closed.

Gregdoo · Nov 14, 2005

I've not heard of them before, but this looks like it might help: http://www.hormann.us/us/en/press/high_lift.php

If you check out their opener, they have about the coolest exterior-mount key pad I've seen!

nova65ss · Nov 14, 2005

Not doubting your skills but you will never do this on your own with what you have. The cable drums need to be replaced the vertical tracks, cables, and spring. The spring doesn't necessarily need to be bigger it is lifting the same amount of weight but with the different drum it needs to lift at a different rate. With the extra lift, the door has more weight when it is lifting that is why the drums taper down from large to small, this acts like gears. As the door starts the turn the weight is then in the horizontal track so it doesn't take as much power to lift.

Your best bet would be to call a different company that will come out and give you an est. to raise what you have. We do it all the time, shouldn't cost more than 150 for the tracks
35 cables
40 -50 drums
175 springs
100-200 labor
650 max that is worst case. Then install the opener yourself, that's the easy part. They should be able to do it in less than a weeks time. You can't find door parts like this at home depot! We won't sell springs and torsion system parts just for liability reasons.

Jimmy

TurboFan · Nov 14, 2005

damn, first you guys talk me into doing it myself, now back out of it! :eyecrazy:

just kidding, seriously though, I do appreciate the advise/insight.

I just got back from Home Depot and noticed there were no torsion springs or tracks up there! I knew that was a bad sign for the DIYer...

I will call some other places tomorrow and also try to get Overhead Door to bid just high lifting the current door (it's one of their doors and I could swear the guy told me that this door couldn't be high lifted, yadda yadda, but I'll check again...)

i'll keep you guys posted on what I find out...

Luckydevil · Nov 15, 2005

Gregdoo said:
If you check out their opener, they have about the coolest exterior-mount key pad I've seen!

You aren't kidding man, that thing is pretty cool looking.

bimmer95 · Jan 2, 2006

You can hack a couple feet off of your horizontal track to add to the vertical. You can get the high lift drums and other supplies from http://www.americandoorsupply.com

I'm in the process of raising my ceiling height to 11' 2" from 9' and redoing my tracks for a single post lift.

gary whipple · Jan 2, 2006

Here is a pic of my high lift garage door with WD I-drive.

JohnZ · Jan 3, 2006

Here's the "high-lift" conversion on the 18' x 8' insulated sectional door in my lift bay, with the added top panel to get the initial lift geometry right for the horizontal-pull opener. The top of the door tracks are 8" from the 12' ceiling. The same guys that installed the doors originally six years ago when we built the house did the "high-lift" conversion for about $500.00. I had it done so I could open the door fully with a car at full working height on the lift or when I have two cars stacked for storage.

nova65ss · Jan 3, 2006

Hey John, you may want to have them put a strut on that glass section. The glass panels lack the strength that solid sections have. Over time it will begin to buckle, especially w/ an 18' wide door. Just an observation :thumbup:

Nice garage also, love the vette!

Jimmy

Just looked at it again, and if anything just take the one from the bottom section and put it on the glass panel. The bottom section never makes it to the horiz. position so it really isn't needed there.

sd formula · Jan 31, 2006

John Z, I like the look of your high lift door arrangement & Vette. Several years ago I moved my horizontal track & opener up approximately 2 feet to accomodate my 4 post lift. I tried to extend the (adjustable "J") lift bar, but this caused the door to jam up when lifted automatically. Since then I have been lifting the door manually and blocking it so it won't drop. I have two five section doors that measure, 16' W, by 8' H and 9' W by 8' H . The ceiling is 11' 4". The high rise is on the smaller door. If I could get the smaller door to function properly I would like to "high rise" the larger door. Have you had any side effects from the high lift arrangement? Do you know if the spring tension was changed or the verticle track moved away from the wall for clearance? Were different pulleys or cables used? Was the track radius changed? Is this a kit or are the parts available seperately? Any opinions or suggestions (from any one) greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

nova65ss · Jan 31, 2006

When changing to high lift you just use longer vertical tracks that have a cut in them about 10" below the opening. At the cut you pull it back away from the wall to keep the sections from catching on the header. The horizontal tracks are the same, no need to replace them.
The cables will need to be longer, you can probably "get by" with just adding tension to the spring, but it will most likely need to be replaced. Usually a different cable drum is used as well which changes the spring rate. If your going 2 feet it is better to add a dummy section to build the door up instead of reaching down w/ the opener arm. The longer the arm the less smooth the door will travel with an opener.
It's almost always better/ easier to just call someone to do it, just because most of these parts are not available at local hardware stores and garage door companies are sometimes leary of selling them to a consumer just for safety and liability reasons.

Jimmy

JohnZ · Feb 2, 2006

My doors are 18' x 8', 4-section, and I added a fifth top section to the "high-lift" door (not visible from the outside) to correct the geometry for the pull opener. I just called the guy who installed the doors six years ago when we built the house and had him do the conversion. He added the top panel, altered the vertical track and added a section, replaced the spring, drums and cables, and re-hung the opener and track 5" from the ceiling - cost less than $400.00 three years ago.

Jimmy is right - let a pro do it - you'll go nuts looking for the (correct) parts, and you don't want to fool with those torsion springs.

:beer:

sd formula · Feb 3, 2006

nova65ss & johnz, Thanks for the quick response.

G M · Feb 3, 2006

Here is my high lift angled track combo. The pic shown is a in progress shot, I basically had to figure it out all on my own. Even though I gave the door company the drawing of the height and angle I needed they messed it up. Took me a week of figuring to come up with the proper length of high lift track to get the door as close to the ceiling as possible, I will try and get some finished pictures.

Roadster · Feb 3, 2006

G M said:
Here is my high lift angled track combo.

GM, do you have a dummy panel for the top?

bimmer95 · Feb 4, 2006

Here's before and after pictures of my high lift conversion.....

bimmer95 · Feb 4, 2006

I've got ~$200 in parts (high lift drums, new cables, new spring, bolts, splice plates, angle iron) from American Garage Door Supply and about 4 hours in installation time. I simply cut off 32" off of the horizontal track and used the resulting pieces for the diagonal extensions. Talk to Tom at AGDS and he'll get you set up with all the parts for the conversion, including the spring(s).

It took about five tries to get the spring wound perfectly, but the door will now lift easily, close easily, stay open when opened half way and all the way. I can open the door just by grabbing the torsion bar and twising it with my bare hand, so the Liftmaster MJ jack shaft opener that I'm ordering on Monday should have no problems.

Extended track, still need to reinforce the top splice...

High lift drum (400-54)...

New extra long life torsion spring...

The reason for all the effort...

G M · Feb 4, 2006

Roadster said:
GM, do you have a dummy panel for the top?

Nope its just a standard 9x7

bimmer95 · Feb 4, 2006

FYI, you only need a dummy panel if you're planning to use a trolley type opener. Without the dummy panel, you have to use a jackshaft opener, the bonus is that the garage door doesn't extend in to the garage as far.

Is a high lift door possible for me?

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