Very Unique Ratchet ID?

SCscoutguy · Jul 7, 2013

I was looking at some pictures of the Confederate Air Forces (I refuse to call them commemorative) Dixie Wing restoration of their P-63 King Cobra and noticed that the manual landing gear lever is actually a ratchet of some kind. It looks similar to a Plomb 3/4" drive ratchet head but not exactly like one. Does anyone have any idea what company possibly made this for the war effort? In any case it is neat how they just took a ratchet mechanism and used it for this application.

devoncoolman · Jul 7, 2013

It was probably the quickest and most efficient way to do it. Function over form. Not ment to look pretty. Ive seen tarps on small dump bodys that have ratchets permanenty fixed to them. Instead of some big fancy ratcheting mechanism.

jmm · Jul 7, 2013

SCscoutguy said:
(I refuse to call them commemorative)

It's all about the money...

Chuck122 · Jul 7, 2013

SCscoutguy said:
(I refuse to call them commemorative)

Didn't get that one... Care to explain?

SCscoutguy · Jul 7, 2013

Chuck122 said:
Didn't get that one... Care to explain?

You can read about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemorative_Air_Force#Name

vssjim · Jul 7, 2013

Chuck122 said:
Didn't get that one... Care to explain?

Because in this B/S P/C world Confederate is considered a racist term for anybody that lived in that era even though most people I've met that lived in that era are dead so the ACLU and NAACP and you name it doesn't like real history only remade history for AH's. the CSA really happened and the CAF is a real group of Texas fliers.

Bellaireroad · Jul 8, 2013

vssjim said:
Because in this B/S P/C world Confederate is considered a racist term for anybody that lived in that era even though most people I've met that lived in that era are dead so the ACLU and NAACP and you name it doesn't like real history only remade history for AH's. the CSA really happened and the CAF is a real group of Texas fliers.

Pretty good guys, too. 40 years ago I was at the Marine Academy in Harlingen. It backed up to the airfield. . Me and a buddy snuck out one night about 1 AM to hook up with some girls from town. There was a 6 foot chain link fence that enclosed the airfield with tall bushes against it. The girls were supposed to meet us down there by the fence. On the other side of the fence were planes from the CAF :O

We're down there about 30 minutes and see car lights approaching. Oh boy, here they come! Only problem was, there were about 6 sets of headlights!!!

We jumped behind the bushes and remained as still as possible, scared to breathe. The CAF pilots walked up and down the fence, shining flashlights on the bushes and on us,and came within 3 feet of us several times. We were in khakis and I guess we blended in pretty well.

Needless to say, I was scared sh**less. After about 15 minutes, one of them yelled out "Here they are!" We came out of the bushes and one said "what are you boys doing down here?" We told them we were meeting some girls. They all kind of smiled, and got more relaxed They told us they had some problems with people breaking in, and not to come down by the airfield any more.

I thought we were busted for sure, but they didn't report us, and never heard about it from the DI.

I had forgotten all about this till I saw this post...Pretty good guys

SCscoutguy · Jul 8, 2013

Bellaireroad said:
Pretty good guys, too. 40 years ago I was at the Marine Academy in Harlingen. It backed up to the airfield. . Me and a buddy snuck out one night about 1 AM to hook up with some girls from town. There was a 6 foot chain link fence that enclosed the airfield with tall bushes against it. The girls were supposed to meet us down there by the fence. On the other side of the fence were planes from the CAF :O

We're down there about 30 minutes and see car lights approaching. Oh boy, here they come! Only problem was, there were about 6 sets of headlights!!!

We jumped behind the bushes and remained as still as possible, scared to breathe. The CAF pilots walked up and down the fence, shining flashlights on the bushes and on us,and came within 3 feet of us several times. We were in khakis and I guess we blended in pretty well.

Needless to say, I was scared sh**less. After about 15 minutes, one of them yelled out "Here they are!" We came out of the bushes and one said "what are you boys doing down here?" We told them we were meeting some girls. They all kind of smiled, and got more relaxed They told us they had some problems with people breaking in, and not to come down by the airfield any more.

I thought we were busted for sure, but they didn't report us, and never heard about it from the DI.

I had forgotten all about this till I saw this post...Pretty good guys

That is a really neat story. I would always read the advertisements for the Marine Academy in the back of my grandfathers old Popular Mechanics. I contacted the CAF about the ratchet and they said they are going to look into some of their paperwork to find out who supplied it. Here are a few more pictures of it. If it is made by Plomb then it would probably be one of the rarest tools a Plomb collector could find I would imagine.

rusty65 · Jul 8, 2013

It's a plumb/proto for sure my work had one in the tool room but it had a full handle but I recognize the head size and thickness from when I used it.

Bruce Lancaster · Jul 8, 2013

I think this is perhaps the 2nd time the Confederate Air Force has been deleted from history...someday I'm going to research this one:
I found this in an almanac collection of yarns and reminiscences. Apparently the fliers on Guadalcanal in the days when it was almost cut off from resupply called themselves "The Confederate Air Force"...and took to speaking in colorful simulated Civil War gibberish, like "Tonight we water our horses in the Tennessee...or in Hell!"
They were without practically everything and under steady attack by an enemy that was thoroughly superior in the area at that time, so the "Confederate" feeling of desperate and hopeless heroism fit well...
You can imagine how well that went over with the Marine and Dept of War publicity outfits...you will find them in the history books as the "Cactus Air Force", cactus being taken from a code name for the 'Canal.

Back to the topic...before and during the war, Plomb was a dominant force in aviation specific and general tools. Betcha if you popped the cover you'd see the tradition Plomb two levers clicking away...

SCscoutguy · Jul 8, 2013

Bruce Lancaster said:
I think this is perhaps the 2nd time the Confederate Air Force has been deleted from history...someday I'm going to research this one:
I found this in an almanac collection of yarns and reminiscences. Apparently the fliers on Guadalcanal in the days when it was almost cut off from resupply called themselves "The Confederate Air Force"...and took to speaking in colorful simulated Civil War gibberish, like "Tonight we water our horses in the Tennessee...or in Hell!"
They were without practically everything and under steady attack by an enemy that was thoroughly superior in the area at that time, so the "Confederate" feeling of desperate and hopeless heroism fit well...
You can imagine how well that went over with the Marine and Dept of War publicity outfits...you will find them in the history books as the "Cactus Air Force", cactus being taken from a code name for the 'Canal.

Back to the topic...before and during the war, Plomb was a dominant force in aviation specific and general tools. Betcha if you popped the cover you'd see the tradition Plomb two levers clicking away...

A very similar story to that one is of a man from my home town who was a Captain in the Marine Corps in WW2 and was basically a total bad *** during the battle of Okinawa. He lead his company in the taking of Shuri castle and at the end raised the confederate battle flag over it. It was covered up and he was admonished for it and was only given the Navy Cross instead of the Medal of Honor which he deserved. You can read a little about it in these links.
http://books.google.com/books?id=zs...g=PA91#v=onepage&q=julian d dusenbury&f=false
http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=7742

SCscoutguy · Jul 9, 2013

Well the CAF got back to me and the part was in fact made by the Plomb tool company in Milwaukee Oregon. I always thought that they were made in Los Angeles?

zeet · Jul 17, 2013

Plomb was indeed based in Los Angeles... But they also bought P & C Tools... Which, if I recall correctly, was based in Oregon.

Bruce Lancaster · Jul 25, 2013

More on the Confederate Air Force in the Solomons campaign...I found the book with the little excerpt, Poor H. Allen Smith's Almanac from 1964. The yarn is from a book The Sword Over the Mantel, by a J. Bryan who was employed in Fighter Command headquarters (located in a Japanese dug tunnel) on Guadalcanal. The organization actually called itself in proper Navy style CONFORSOLS, for Confederate Forces of the Solomons.
The end came when a Confederate spy in the Secretary of the Navy's office alerted Bryan to a yankee plot...someone had found out about CONFORSOLS, and "the Republicans were primed to make an issue of it"!
So...the Confederate Air Force on Guadalcanal was real...and its name was suppressed just like the recent Confederate air force! Cactus Air indeed.
More later...I have ordered a copy of Bryan's book. I hope there is more on this!

Conductor562 · Jul 25, 2013

zeet said:
Plomb was indeed based in Los Angeles... But they also bought P & C Tools... Which, if I recall correctly, was based in Oregon.

^^This^^ Plomb acquired the Milwaukee, Oregon factory when they purchased P&C Tools in 1941.

SCscoutguy · Jul 31, 2013

Conductor562 said:
^^This^^ Plomb acquired the Milwaukee, Oregon factory when they purchased P&C Tools in 1941.

Did P&C make the plomb style 3/4" ratchets though? Could Plomb have actually forged them and they were just completed by P&C?

Bruce Lancaster · Jul 31, 2013

Another perspective on that: It was a Plomb owned factory, and is this case branding, price level placing, and so on were unimportant: The part had to fit the government design and performance criteria and that was that, nothing like civilian market need for a line slightly cheaper than Plomb.

Conductor562 · Jul 31, 2013

SCscoutguy said:
Did P&C make the plomb style 3/4" ratchets though? Could Plomb have actually forged them and they were just completed by P&C?

It doesn't look like a Plomb to me, It looks more like a P&C. Plomb didn't acquire P&C until 41 and largely operated it as a completely separate line until the IR buyout in 1964. Knowing this, we can come to the following:

The CAF admits that the ratchet came from the Oregon factory that we know was a P&C facility.

The time of manufacture was certainly in the early days of Plomb ownership and the odds of major changes to the toolings at the Oregon factory at the height of WWII are very slim. Couple this with the part about P&C remaining largely independent and the odds are slim to none.

IMO Plomb was only involved in this by the name on the contract. I believe this is a P&C ratchet, made in a P&C factory. I'd be very surprised if the ratchet is stamped Plomb at all and there's no evidence of stampings in the obvious places which only supports this theory. I'm betting they can only identify it as Plomb based on paperwork. I'm certainly no expert, but that's my theory :beer:

tweedlestan · Jul 31, 2013

Looks like an old Snap on to me.

Definitely not Plomb/Proto.

Conductor562 · Jul 31, 2013

tweedlestan said:
Looks like an old Snap on to me.

Definitely not Plomb/Proto.

I almost said the same thing, but the CAF told him it was Plomb sourced. It does have a Snap-On look to it. It's definitely not a Plomb IMO.

Hank McMauser · Jul 31, 2013

I had a very similar ratchet that was proto marked and was a 1/2" drive, It had an odd female drive end most likely for a similar application

3baygarage · Sep 1, 2013

Wow! Scoutguy, I actually have that ratchet. I picked it up this past spring from an estate sale. Let me find it and post up some pics. I knew it was military by the green paint but had no idea of it's purpose.

3baygarage · Sep 1, 2013

I knew it was definitely a Snap On when I bought it but didn't know what it was for.
Thanks so much for putting the landing gear mechanism pics up here.
Now you guys can see the other side with the spline.
1/2" drive ratchet with oil hole in the top.

3baygarage · Sep 2, 2013

Imagine that. There is a site called p63kingcobra.com.
Apparently the above tool is called the "P63 Undercarriage Emergency Hand Crank".
I wonder where the handle went.

SCscoutguy · Apr 2, 2014

So this ratchet ended up being a Snap On after all? I guess the CAF was wrong or could the Bell have sourced them from various sources? Either way I am glad I was able to help you ID your ratchet 3bay. It makes sense for you to find it where you live with Bell making their aircraft there. If you are not attached to it you may consider donating it to the CAF Dixie Wing to have as a spare for theirs as I am betting they don't have one. http://www.dixiewing.org/restorations/108-P_63_KingCobra.html

3baygarage · Apr 3, 2014

SCscoutguy said:
So this ratchet ended up being a Snap On after all? I guess the CAF was wrong or could the Bell have sourced them from various sources? Either way I am glad I was able to help you ID your ratchet 3bay. It makes sense for you to find it where you live with Bell making their aircraft there. If you are not attached to it you may consider donating it to the CAF Dixie Wing to have as a spare for theirs as I am betting they don't have one. http://www.dixiewing.org/restorations/108-P_63_KingCobra.html

In my opinion I believe it is.

The figure 8 face plate and oil hole on top, general shape and head thickness.

As far as donating it I think I'll hang onto it for now. It's the only one I have of that type. I did check out that site before though. Pretty neat. Your pictures should be on there too. I never would have known what this thing did.

There is another Bell plane with a similar ratchet yet a bit different setup. I've been working on getting some pictures.

3baygarage · Apr 3, 2014

Here's the one pic I spotted recently, but still hoping to get a couple pics of another plane from someone.

Very Unique Ratchet ID?

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