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OldCarGuy’s Sherwin William’s Epoxy adventure.

OldCarGuy

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Since the inception of my new garages, I have been pondering what kind of treatment I was going to put on the floor. Researching all the possibilities from sealant’s to tiles to mats, plus past experiences, I decided that a high VOC solvent epoxy (not water based) would meet my needs and wants best. I determined that Sherwin William’s Armor Seal.1000 HS was the finest product available today with the greatest resistance to chemicals, high temperatures, impact, abrasion, and moisture.

I had the Sherwin William’s IM Rep (Industrial Marine) inspect the conditions of my three new garage floors (totaling 3500 square feet) and give his recommendations. His inspections confirmed that the concrete floors had no oil or paint spills; but felt that they were too smooth and had signs of curing agent on the surface for good adhesion. He sent me a written proposal including the type of coating system, data sheets, application techniques, preparation requirements, and pricing.

His recommendation was to shot blasting the floor and was the approved method of preparing the floor for their epoxy coating over acid etching. The equipment rental was $250.00 per day at Jordans. They allowed me to pick it up on Friday morning and return it on Monday at that price though. Knowing that I could return any unused shot beads I picked up 500 pounds at $.60 per pound. I ended up using only 200 pounds as the machine was extremely efficient at recycling the media. Jordans suggested that I rent a big body grinder with a diamond wheel to dress off the areas where the shot blasting machine couldn’t reach. Jordan Power Equipment

It was a slow and tedious process and took 20 hours to shot blast the 3 garages. The vacuum setup made it almost dustless. Included in the rental charge is a large magnet to pick up the steel beads left behind. Unfortunately Jordans forgot to load it in my truck. And rather than drive 50 miles to get it, I decided to triple sweep and blow the garage out with my backpack leaf blower. Not a good idea, it is impossible to see them on the blasted floor and their density prevents them from being swept or blown away. And merely stand out once coated with epoxy.

The IM Rep recommended that I put a primer coat of their Armorseal 33 first. It is supposed to penetrate the concrete better to give improved adhesion of the topcoat. Three gallons of part A that comes in a 5 gallon bucket that you mix well before adding 2 gallons of mixed part B hardener. It has only a 30 minute pot life! And let me tell you, once the 30 minutes are up it becomes very stiff. I wasn’t working fast enough and the bottom 2 gallons became unusable and hard as a rock in 45 minutes! Lesson learned. Each of the next four 5-gallon batches were put down within the 30 minutes. The first coat consumed 25 gallons of Armorseal 33 primer. Or about 150 square foot per gallon coverage. That fell within Sherwin William’s guidelines.

When the primer is first applied it shows every roller mark. But this product is self-leveling. For once it is dry, it looked GREAT,,, smooth as a calm lake! I only wished the topcoat looked nearly as nice.

The minimum primer recoat time is 6 hours and maximum 24 hours. It was dry to the touch and you could even walk on it the next morning. Within 20 hours I applied the topcoat of Armorseal 1000HS. It came in 1-gallon cans and I thoroughly mixed 2 gallons part A’s in a 5 gallon bucket and then slowly mixed 2 gallons of stirred part B. Let steep (sweat-in-time) for 30 minutes, mix again, before applying. More time can be taken to apply the 1000 as it has a 4 hour pot life. This product is NOT self-leveling and when it dries it shows roller lines and has an orange peel look to it. The topcoat consumed 16 gallons of Armorseal 1000HS. Or about 220 square foot per gallon coverage. Also falling within Sherwin William’s guidelines.

The outside temperature was never below 60 degrees. I heated all the garages to 75 degrees for at least a week so that the floor temperature would reach room temperature. The problem that came about didn’t show up until the next day. Bubbles, small as a pinhead became as big as a quarter over the next week. The first 1,000’ garage looked the best and had no problems. A 10’ square area of the second 1,000’ garage was the most undesirable. While a 3x4’ area in the 1,500’ garage was infested. All these circles acted as if the primer never hardened, even though it was dry enough to walk on before I put on the topcoat. No one has any answers. The IM Rep sent off samples of the plagued coating over a month ago with no reply from Sherwin William’s lab.
Bubbles.jpg


The 1,500’ garage bubbles hardened after 2 weeks. I roughed up the entire section between the saw lines with a black 3M pad on a 20” floor polisher. Then put on another heavy coat of 1000HS. It looks pretty good except for some telltale depressions.

The 1’000’ garage bubbles never hardened. I scrapped off all the unhardened primer with a putty knife. Heating it with a torch made it easier to remove. Roughed up with the 3M pad, then put on a heavy coat of 1000HS. Again looks fairly good except for telltale signs where I removed the primer.
Scraping.jpg



After recoating:
After.jpg


I believe that the 1000HS was not compatible with the 33 primer and caused a reaction in these two areas. I do not recommend the use Sherwin William’s 33 primer! And in the future I will use 2 coats of 1000HS. In fact with what was left from the two batches of 1000HS I applied one coat to a section of the floor of the pole barn and painted 2 sets of stairs. They look fantastic!
 
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Luckydevil

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Great write-up. Unfortunately it seems like there have been a rash of bad epoxy experiences lately. Keep us posted if Sherwin Williams ever comes back with an explanation.
 

bmwpower

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Geez. And I thought I had problems. I was actually thinking of using the 33, too! Good thing I didn't. I'm surprised SW recommended NOT to acid etch. It definitely sounds like an incompatibility or bad batch of 33. Hope they give you some sort of refund.
 
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OldCarGuy

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Sherwin Williams application bulletin recommended either shot blasting or acid etching. And went into detail with both methods. However the IM Rep highly recommended that I shot blast for best results. I have acid etched in the past, and feel that shot blasting is a better route to follow.

When I first approached the IM Rep about the problem, he said that Sherwin William’s had deep pocket and not to worry that they would replace the product. After conversing with lab technicians, he made suggestions of how and when I should proceed; but didn’t give me the 4 gallons as promised. The dude ate his words! And is now saying, “If the lab tests shows that their product was bad, they’ll reimburse me.” I guess that they feel that I have deeper pockets.

I have either specified and or purchased thousands of gallons of Sherwin William’s products over the years. Needless to say, I’m very disappointed with them that they have no answers and have taken so long to resolve my issues.
 
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OldCarGuy

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The saga continues,,,

Just got off the phone with the Sherwin William’s IM Rep. Now after two months, he said he received an email from their lab that there was no problems reported by others with the batch numbers that I used. And that the results of the testing of the samples pulled from my garage floors were done and written results should be ready within a week or so. Sounds like a bunch of “lip service” to me!

Seriously, at my age, I knew not to anticipate very much from Sherwin Williams. On the other hand I am glad that I didn’t have problems with 90% of the floors. And that I was able to repair the defective areas without too much trouble. In addition I’m exceedingly happy with the final results! Plus I would highly recommend their Armorseal 1000HS, except never using their Armorseal 33 as a prime coat for 1000 HS as per their recommendations.
 
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OldCarGuy

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Bmwpower you must be physic…

The Sherwin William’s industrial representative finally got in touch with me this afternoon. He said that all the lab reports were relatively inconclusive. They couldn’t find any defected products in the samples tested. However some of the samples had a moisture level that was just beyond their recommended limits. I asked what that meant and how could a high level of moisture soften up the ArmorSeal 33 primer coats after it was already hardened?

In other words they have no idea, or don’t want to admit, what went astray. The good news is that Sherwin Williams committed to demo me enough products to cover the cost of materials and labor needed to rework my floors. What’s the next best thing of knowing what went wrong? Being compensated for all that went wrong… In truth I’m extremely pleased with my new ArmorSeal Epoxy floors even considering all my extra effort that went into them.

Now onto my next endeavor,,, installing the bride crane in the 30X50 garage addition. With any luck I’ll finish it over the weekend and post pictures next week.
 

bmwpower

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That's good news. Glad it worked out in your favor. Doing extra work really stinks, but if they pay you for it, that's not bad.

I'm sure their limits have built-in safeguards so even if you went over their recommended limits, you'd still be okay...to an extent.
 

mbogosia

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This is why I would never sell epoxy to a DIy'er in my store. There are way too many factors that are out of my control. Moisture coming up through the concrete and causing bubbles is one. Also, humidity and temperature are also factors. I have seen where even the pro's get the bubbles.

Was there a critical recoat window on the primer? Most say they must be recoated within say 48hrs or after 72hrs. If you missed this window then that would be your problem.
 

mbogosia

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Okay, I just looked it up. The recoat is time is a minum 6hrs and a maximum 24hrs. If this is exceeded you will have problems. Anyways, sorry about your problems and I'm glad your happy.
 
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OldCarGuy

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I may not be an expert; but I don’t consider myself a novice either. Over the years I have purchased thousands of gallons of Sherwin William’s products. Putting down epoxy floor coatings is not brain surgery, at best an art. If you have read my post, I did follow Sherwin William’s guidelines. In fact their Industrial Marine Representative took his personal time to inspect the floors before I started and several times throughout the job. The ArmorSeal 1000 HS topcoat was applied within the 6 to 24 hour window of the primer coat of ArmorSeal 33. And was hard enough to walk on before applying the next coat. The million dollar question still remains unanswered. Why did the primer coat soften once the second coat was applied? I don’t have the answer, either does Sherwin William’s team of experts. My recommendation would be to use two coats of ArmorSeal 1000 HS and not use the 33 primer.
 

Hammerdown

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Just my 2 cents about bubbling- These are the most common causes for bubbling- An outgasing of moisture vapor through the porous slab. This can be caused by excessive hydrostatic pressure or a sudden change in temperature. Also the wrong size nap roller cover can introduce air into the coating. Overworking the roller during application can trap air inside the coating. Excessive air movement across the curing floor can flash cure the surface. Epoxy cures from the inside out. Escaping vapor usually pops through the surface and the coating "self levels" to form a uniform finish around the burst. If the surface is cured first, escaping air can cause bubbles. Direct sunlight can also be a culprit. It will raise the temperature of the affected area significantly causing rapid drying. As the the other issue of the primer becoming soft when another coating is applied this would be typical if the primer coat had not properly cured. The additional coat chemically attacks the previous coating to form a bond and "bite" to produce the proper adhesion. If the existing coating is incompatable or not properly cured, it can cause it to soften up and wrinkle. This can create quite a mess as you found out. I'm glad to hear the project is back on track. Hope some of this is useful, just wanted to chime in.
 
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bmwpower

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If I had to bet, I'd put my money down that the primer 33 chemically reacted somehow with the 1000HS (or vice versa) causing the bubbles and the soft nature of the final product. The reaction could have caused a drastic temperature change, potentially throwing off the normal epoxy curing, too (hence soft product).

I'm not sure of the lapse in time between the actual problem and when SW actually tested the product. This lapse in time could have allowed to contaminant to vaporize before they had a chance to test it. Also, I believe you said you used a heat gun to remove it... this would have an affect as well. Was the "heatgunned" ever hard?
 

mike944

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Hey guys,

I'm a newbe here, I wish i found this forum before i coated my floor. I did online research for probably 2 weeks, before i eventually selected the Armorseal 1000. I have had excellent luck with it.

I figured i would post my experience. I did NOT shot-blast my floor (I felt it was too expensive), but i did scrub very well, with a caustic "concrete cleaner and degreaser" and I also did a phosphoric acid etch. I did not prime, as my local store did not reccomend it. (They didn't tell me not to, they just didn't say anything, and i never asked) I did 2 coats with the Armorseal. I used the sherwin-wiliams texture grit in the topcoat. I'm very happy with the way it came out. It's so easy to clean up the inevitable messes that occur. I've dropped several things on it, and have only made 1 small (about 1/4") chip down to bare concrete, and that was with something really heavy.

Sorry to hear you have a bad experience. Maybe the primer should have fully cured before applying the topcoat? Maybe the recoat time of 6-24 hrs is JUST for recoating with the same primer. SInce you were "recoating" with a different product, maybe this was the problem?

Mike
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OldCarGuy

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bmwpower said:
If I had to bet, I'd put my money down that the primer 33 chemically reacted somehow with the 1000HS (or vice versa) causing the bubbles and the soft nature of the final product. The reaction could have caused a drastic temperature change, potentially throwing off the normal epoxy curing, too (hence soft product).

My thoughts exactly!



bmwpower said:
I'm not sure of the lapse in time between the actual problem and when SW actually tested the product. This lapse in time could have allowed to contaminant to vaporize before they had a chance to test it. Also, I believe you said you used a heat gun to remove it... this would have an affect as well. Was the "heatgunned" ever hard?

The 3X4’ area in one building that eventually hardened after a week, I just roughed the surface and re-coated with ArmorSeal 1000. The second problem area kept getting larger over the next week until it reached about 10x10’. After a month I removed the gooey mess with a hand scraper and found that a propane torch expedited its’ removal. After roughing the surface I re-coated with ArmoSeal 1000. Both areas are functionally perfect now.
 

EBodiesRule

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Researching floor coatings

Hey, MIKE944...you mentioned you just did your floors with the non-skid additive. Is the floor hard to sweep with that grit in the finish? Also, did you look into any of the Rustoleum products before you selected the SW product? Why did you choose SW? - Thanks.
 

mike944

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I just PM'ed this to you, but i see you asked the question on the forum as well, so i figured i would share my answer with everyone.


When sweeping the floor, i don't even notice the grit. It's not very coarse at all. I did NOT use sand, as some have done, i used the special grit that my SW dealer gave me. It wasn't more than a few $.

Actually, to give you a better idea, several times, i have hosed off the floor, and wiped it up using a wide squegee on a broomstick. No problems there either.
I'm very happy with the textured finish.

I did look into the rust-oleum products, but only the Home Depot variety. I read alot online that they were subject to hot tire pickup. I also wasn't comfortable with a single-part coating. Lots of bad exprience out there with various single-part coatings. In my opinion, a single-part coating can't be any more durable than regular paint. Without a second part to cause a true chemical cure, they're always subject to softening.

I wanted a true industrial-type epoxy floor, that was going to hold up for a long time, and i didn't want to worry about it. I also seriously considered dura-poxy, but the cost was higher, combined with the fact that i had to order it, so i did some more reasearch, and found the armorseal 1000. SW actually sells a few different concrete coatings, but the armorseal seemed the best, and the price was in my ballpark. The cost was about $100 for 2 gallons, enough for a single-car garage. Of course, the complete job cost was higher, cleaners and etching acid, roller covers, and everything, but i think i got out of it for around $150.


I hear that rust-oleum does make an industrial floor coating, but i didn't know about that at the time. That might have been worth considering, but i suspect availability would have been an issue again.
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mdshore348

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it keeps sticking in my head , how can you NOT be an expert after using thousands of gallons of sherwin williams paint? :) i know i would be!
 

krooser

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mdshore348 said:
it keeps sticking in my head , how can you NOT be an expert after using thousands of gallons of sherwin williams paint? :) i know i would be!


My wife has used thousands of gallons of Shell gasoline but still isn't an expert driver!!!
 

muddy

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mdshore348 said:
it keeps sticking in my head , how can you NOT be an expert after using thousands of gallons of sherwin williams paint? :) i know i would be!
I can't see how this is nothing short of trying to be confrontational and serves no real purpose to say it.

Regarding this thread, having just done my floors in early november with the same armorseal products I'll respond with my thoughts. I think the advice of the primer was the only issue and I'm sure the rep had his reasons for recommending it....... I rented the same shot blast from the same company..Jordans...although I got the magnet and can't imagine not having it as those little pellets are heavy to remove otherwise.
I was advised to use no primer, but instead do a fifty percent reduced first coat and then a second coat of normal mix. After doing my new shop floor and the garage floor at the same time, I would recommend not reducing the first coat so much but it worked perfectly. I did, however, allow for alot longer "sweat in" time after initial mixing. It was 50 degrees out when I did my floors and it was combined around 2400 square feet. I had no issues whatsoever and you can observe the finished floor in the gallery section where I did a 5 part thread titled something like "Detached Garage Photos" or Detached Shop Photos with a following number, or just look under my old posts but I was very happy with the Sherwin Williams experience just as I was with my last shop in missouri. I bought 18 gallons and only needed 12 so I returned 6 gallons no questions asked. Hope this helps for a comparison........ Keith
 

bmwpower

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muddy said:
I can't see how this is nothing short of trying to be confrontational and serves no real purpose to say it.

Regarding this thread, having just done my floors in early november with the same armorseal products I'll respond with my thoughts. I think the advice of the primer was the only issue and I'm sure the rep had his reasons for recommending it....... I rented the same shot blast from the same company..Jordans...although I got the magnet and can't imagine not having it as those little pellets are heavy to remove otherwise.
I was advised to use no primer, but instead do a fifty percent reduced first coat and then a second coat of normal mix. After doing my new shop floor and the garage floor at the same time, I would recommend not reducing the first coat so much but it worked perfectly. I did, however, allow for alot longer "sweat in" time after initial mixing. It was 50 degrees out when I did my floors and it was combined around 2400 square feet. I had no issues whatsoever and you can observe the finished floor in the gallery section where I did a 5 part thread titled something like "Detached Garage Photos" or Detached Shop Photos with a following number, or just look under my old posts but I was very happy with the Sherwin Williams experience just as I was with my last shop in missouri. I bought 18 gallons and only needed 12 so I returned 6 gallons no questions asked. Hope this helps for a comparison........ Keith

Muddy, I think it was a compliment and a reply to OldCarGuy's comment about himself not being an expert...
 
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OldCarGuy

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mdshore348 said:
it keeps sticking in my head , how can you NOT be an expert after using thousands of gallons of sherwin williams paint? :) i know i would be!

Because I don’t make a living at applying epoxy coatings I don’t consider myself an expert. Rather I do deem myself a been there done that kind of jack of all trades master of none type of person. Certainly I rely heavily on others to receive good advice. But when the Sherwin William’s experts have no definitive answers either,,, I don’t feel as inept.... Admittedly everything was done according to Hoyle, sometimes sh*t :shocking: happens, and you learn to just step over it. :thumbup:
 
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