fire extinguisher or sprinklers

mikeyr · Sep 18, 2008

My new garage is going to be 22x44, its still in the process but getting close enough to start thinking details. I am going to have 4 hand held fire extinguishers, one at each corner since I have a entrance at each corner.

I was thinking of putting a automatic system and found this ceiling mounted unmanned fire extinguisher, way cool and I like it but I need 4 of them according to the sales guy at Griott's, that gets awfully expensive. I can't seem to find anything similar on the web.

So I started thinking about a plain old sprinkler system with automatic valves, I figure water damage is better than fire destruction but the city inspector said if he sees a sprinkler system in my garage he had better see permits for it and they will require a inspection every 2 years with a test every 6 years by the fire marshall, ok I am not doing that

I suppose I can put in a sprinkler system after inspections are done, I have found the sprinkler valves and its not rocket science to put it together. I suppose I could look into very expensive Halon or Halotron sprinkler systems too but lets get reasonable, what do you guys do ? just a hand held by the door ? or ?

MXtras · Sep 18, 2008

Handhelds.

I have never had a fire in my shop and I do a lot of grinding and welding, but the thought of having a fire consume all of my toys makes me cringe. I put a lot of effort into eliminating the potential for a fire and always remain in the shop for an hour or so after I finish doing any "hot work".

Scott

PAToyota · Sep 18, 2008

You've pretty much stated the pros and cons - fire extinguishers aren't going to do squat if you aren't there to notice the fire and do something about it while sprinklers can get into regulatory hassles. Fortunately, due to your location you aren't going to have to get into the possibility of what happens if the sprinkler lines freeze...

As MXtras states, eliminating the potential for problems goes a long way. Of the six garage fires that I have had some level of direct contact with (acquaintances, general neighborhood, or direct contact with those involved) - three were due to working on fuel system (draining fuel or causing a major leak), two were due to very questionable wiring situations, and one was due to a pile of oil soaked rags spontaneously combusting.

The fuel related fires all went so fast that I doubt that even having the fire department standing by would have helped much. They pretty much exploded into flame and were fully engulfed in no time at all. Fire extinguishers would/did do nothing. A sprinkler could have done some good, but I'm not sure that a residential level system would have had the volume. All three could have been avoided if the people involved had thought a bit further ahead about what they were doing and practiced more care. But accidents do happen...

The electrical fires were just waiting to happen and involved spliced wire, overloaded circuits, and shoddy maintenance. Again, things that could have been avoided. Fire extinguishers would not have made a difference as they happened while the buildings were unoccupied. Sprinklers would have likely contained the damage as it was slow to start and smouldered for some time, but considering the state of the electrical system I would not have trusted a sprinkler system in the same state...

And the final one, involving oily rags, could easily have been avoided and there is enough information out there about such fires that everyone should be aware of the hazards. Like the electrical fires, this happened while the building was unoccupied so fire extinguishers would not have made a difference. Sprinklers would have definitely controlled it.

wantedabiggergarage · Sep 18, 2008

Former neighbor had a snake/lizard room, in the basement on the other side of the garage. He had an area that used CPVC pipe, with some valves on a timer to water some trees that gecko's were living in (ficus, NOT big tree's).

He asked for some help straightening the garage and I had done some work for him that he was paying me with his old tablesaw. He was getting out of the woodworking (got into it for snake cages and such) and back into auto (rebuiding his dune buggy). I helped him straighten his garage out, and the last thing done that day was he put a nail in the wall to hang his clock on.
He had pulled out his dying/chirping battery out of his fire extinguisher, the week prior and hadn't replaced it. The night he got his garage done, that nail penetrated the electrical wire, which started the insulation and wall on fire. The heat, melted the CPVC and that was throwing water directly at the fire. That delayed the fire, and the two year old woke up and woke both of them up, and saved their lives.
Both would be nice, as you don't want a whole system for a spot fire. Water DOES a lot of damage, and you don't want to be around if a halon system goes off. An broken/never monitered/checked system is worthless. But I have considered something like what he did, for a car wash system, more as a just in case.

MXtras · Sep 18, 2008

wantedabiggergarage said:
..He had pulled out his dying/chirping battery out of his fire extinguisher, the week prior and hadn't replaced it.

I've never seen a battery in a fire extinguisher. What's that all about?

I read a story a year or so ago about a construction guy who lost a home he was constructing because one of the contractors threw mineral spirits soaked rags in a barrel of sawdust and wood scraps at the end of the day. The rags ignited and the rest is intuitive.

Scott

MXtras · Sep 18, 2008

Ya know - even if the sprinkler system has to be inspected - why not do it? Inspections aren't hard to pass if everything is in order. Testing might be costly, though.

Most sprinkler systems have a booster pump and large diameter piping. Have you looked in to it at all or did you figure it would just be too much hassle?

Another good thing to do is to ask the fire marshal (or whatever he's called in you area) to come out for a voluntary site review. He might be able to offer some good insight and from what I have seen, they are more than happy to be proactive.

Scott

wantedabiggergarage · Sep 18, 2008

Sorry, mind was reliving the whole thing when while typing. A lot of incomplete thoughts, mixed with sensory memory of the smells of fire and burnt up reptiles, etc.

He had removed the battery from his fire alarm. So his two year old, FORTUNATLY became the fire alarm.

kf4zht · Sep 18, 2008

Sprinkler systems are wonderful. They will keep a fire at bay most of the time, and since they only go off due to direct heat only some things will be ruined in the immediate area, not the whole building. However they do require maintance. You insurance may cut you a sizeable break for having them, I know the newer residental ones will get a good bit taken off.

As a firefighter I would recommend both. The sprinkler for when you are not there and then handheld units for when you are. Keeps the sprinkler from going off when all it started as was a rag from welding. Also for fire extinguishers I would recommend having more than just your normal ABC dry chem. They work well but make a very large mess (trust me, I've had 2 go off in the car while I was driving) and the plastic valved ones cannot be refilled most of the time. I would have a couple CO2, a water (with a foam agent like fireaid or AFFF if possible) and a couple larger dry chemical. CO2 works well on contained and eletrical fires, foam works well on oil fires (even over a big area) and dry works well on everything else (except brush fires).

Joe B. · Sep 18, 2008

I spent 5 years working for my uncle's fire sprinkler testing business though college. (That ended over 10 years ago but I don't think things have changed much.) We worked on everything from high rise building to small industrial buildings. On one or two occasions we messed with residential systems but that was not frequent.

Residential systems are not that complicated so an inspection should not be a big deal. I'm sure most people on this board are handy enough to be able to do one themselves. (However your city may require some certification to do the work.) Residential systems usually will have the pipe coming in with a shut off valve and a drain on the outside of the building. I don't remember if they are required but regardless of requirement, you would want to have a test valve that drops down from the highest point in the system. (Sprinkler systems are designed so that the water is always headed uphill so that when you drain it, it drains dry.) The test valve will help you get the water out if you need to drain the system. In addition, there is normally a flow switch that activate a monitored alarm tied to a central monitoring system like ADT or others. Most residential systems don't have a pump but you do need adequate water pressure. I don't remember the exact amount of pressure you need but most places have plenty of pressure when it is not regulated for home pressure. (The water lines would normally be separate from your domestic water supply.)

Testing a system like this is very simple. You mainly do a physical inspection on the pipes, valves and sprinkler heads; flush the system; test the flow switch and validate that the alarm company received the signal. There is really not much more you can do to one of these systems if you wanted to.

You should check with your local fire marshal and ask what the exact requirements are for the testing and who is aloud to do it. In most cases, a local Fire Marshal will be a big supporter of sprinkler systems but some of them do seem to have control issues/power trips. The Fire Marshal have have different views than your local zoning official. (If you send your 19 year old daughter over to the fire house with homemade cookies, they will be happy to pass through anything you like.)

If you do build a system, here is some advice that I can share from my 5 years of fixing problems with sprinkler systems. 1) Don't use copper pipe. It seems to deteriorate quite quickly from electrolysis. Iron pipe holds up a lot better with water that is stagnant for a long period of time. 2) If you can, use upright sprinkler heads in your garage. This is most common in warehouses and similar structures that don't have finished ceilings. Heads that face down are much more likely to be hit and damaged by accident. 3) Get commercial grade sprinkler heads and avoid the residential ones. Maybe the residential ones have improved over the last few years but I know they were junk back in the 90s. 4) Drain the water quarterly. It will turn black and will stain anything it hits if it sits too long. The water we would see that had been sitting in systems for 5 years would come out like black ink. I think this is because of the critters (bacteria?) that grow in the stagnant water.

A sprinkler system are very effective at quickly putting out fires and I consider them well worth the investment if you either have expensive toys or you are working with a lot of flammable equipment or processes. Also, I would not mess with a system that is sold like the Groit's. The Groit's system probably needs to be charged every year which would be a lot more of a bother than the inspections on a water system.

rsanter · Sep 18, 2008

to me its a question of cost and value.
I have had 2 small fires in my shop and they were both brought under control with little trouble and almost no damage. with that said, these could have been very bad situations if we did not have fire extinguishers near by.
on the other hand the fire extinguishers only work if you are there and only if it does not get too big before you get there.
remember the Reggie Jackson collection? I am sure he was wishing he had fire sprinklers.

I would have no issue with an unpermitted system as long as it was designed as if it was to meet code.

bob

wantedabiggergarage · Sep 18, 2008

Joe B. said:
If you do build a system, here is some advice that I can share from my 5 years of fixing problems with sprinkler systems. 1) Don't use copper pipe. It seems to deteriorate quite quickly from electrolysis. Iron pipe holds up a lot better with water that is stagnant for a long period of time. 2) If you can, use upright sprinkler heads in your garage. This is most common in warehouses and similar structures that don't have finished ceilings. Heads that face down are much more likely to be hit and damaged by accident. 3) Get commercial grade sprinkler heads and avoid the residential ones. Maybe the residential ones have improved over the last few years but I know they were junk back in the 90s. 4) Drain the water quarterly. It will turn black and will stain anything it hits if it sits too long. The water we would see that had been sitting in systems for 5 years would come out like black ink. I think this is because of the critters (bacteria?) that grow in the stagnant water.

How is electrolysis, involved?
What do you do to keep scale, rust, and calcium deposits from acumulating in the line? (seen how bad galvanized pipe can get).

Thanks

Ramblur · Sep 18, 2008

Guess I'm on the fence on this question. Had a shop burn down about 25
yrs. ago in Ohio and wouldn't wish it on anyone. On the other hand our county here
passed an ordinance 6 yrs. ago that they've now decided to enforce. It
requires me to have my hydrants( Eight of them in my RV park) inspected
by a licensed inspector yearly. Municipalities are allowed to self inspect
with NO license. I have maintained these hydrants for almost 20 yrs yearly
(doubles as flushing my 6" mains out). Grease the threads,exercise the
valve,and paint as needed.
Just don't like the idea of someone else getting in my pocket for another
$600 a year. Firefighters, I love you and the service you provide but come
on now I'm already giving you $20K a year. Gimme a break!

mikeyr · Sep 19, 2008

Well I did some checking this evening after reading here what was involved in bi-annual testing, thanks for posting it. I had incorrectly assumed that testing was causing a sprinkler to go off but that is not the case. Its testing flow/pressure to the lines which is done outside and a visual, so every 2 years its a visual and every 3rd inspection (6 years) is a physical test on the feed line outside the garage. I had incorrectly assumed that the test would involve soaking a car and/or tools

I also checked into what it takes to install it and I can install it myself, the only part I can't install myself is a alarm but I can do all the prep work on it AND its debatable if I have to have a alarm or not. I did not speak to the city since it was past 5 but I went to my friendly local fire station and spoke with them. A few thought if I had a permit for the sprinklers the city would require a alarm and others said no, it will depend on my zoning and the mood of the permit guy at the city counter.

The firefighters all said if I install a sprinkler without a permit, they will happily come over and inspect it to make sure I did correctly without telling the city, they would prefer it to work over having it not work (they did suggest permits anyway). I have no issues with a permit if the test is really as easy as they say it is and non-destructive.

kf4zht: regarding the handhelds, I see you recommend CO2, what about HALON or HALOTRON ? that was my plan to have 4 of them, one near each entrance/exit.

Joe B. · Sep 19, 2008

wantedabiggergarage said:
How is electrolysis, involved?
What do you do to keep scale, rust, and calcium deposits from acumulating in the line? (seen how bad galvanized pipe can get).

Thanks

I really don't know and 'electrolysis' may not even be the right term. (I wrote a lot and it was late!) Most copper pipe systems we would run into would start to have problems after about 20 years. The pipes would start to turn green from the inside and develop pinhole leaks that required frequent patching and tearing open walls to get to them. We rarely saw issues with the black pipe. I always assumed that this had something to do with the impact of standing water. (Many systems were only fully drained and flushed every 5 years.)

I'm sure if you looked around you could find some info on the web about this.

Joe B. · Sep 19, 2008

mikeyr said:
The firefighters all said

Your experience sounds like what I would expect from a fire department. Firefighters like people who make their job easier and really don't like people who make it harder. (Just don't get on their bad side because the cooperation can turn around 180 degrees in no time!)

Just be careful regarding who you talk with at a fire department. Back when I worked with systems, most of the rank and file fire fighters really did not know as much about sprinkler system engineering and the requirements as you would expect. Make sure you are talking to the guy who can make a decision and who knows what he is talking about.

Torque1st · Sep 19, 2008

kf4zht said:
Sprinkler systems are wonderful. They will keep a fire at bay most of the time, and since they only go off due to direct heat only some things will be ruined in the immediate area, not the whole building. However they do require maintance. You insurance may cut you a sizeable break for having them, I know the newer residental ones will get a good bit taken off.

As a firefighter I would recommend both. The sprinkler for when you are not there and then handheld units for when you are. Keeps the sprinkler from going off when all it started as was a rag from welding. Also for fire extinguishers I would recommend having more than just your normal ABC dry chem. They work well but make a very large mess (trust me, I've had 2 go off in the car while I was driving) and the plastic valved ones cannot be refilled most of the time. I would have a couple CO2, a water (with a foam agent like fireaid or AFFF if possible) and a couple larger dry chemical. CO2 works well on contained and eletrical fires, foam works well on oil fires (even over a big area) and dry works well on everything else (except brush fires).

A big +2 for this reply. :thumbup:

I like CO2 extinguishers myself and avoid the ABC dry chemical extinguishers like the plague. They make a hell of a mess and it is very difficult to clean up afterward. Better than letting the fire go tho. Sometimes I have not been so certain tho. I have never had a real fire in the shop myself but I have helped clean up a few messes. Know which type of extinguisher to use and learn HOW to use them.

Ordinary fire prevention helps. Get a good metal fire can for rags and use it. Get a flammable cabinet and install it properly. Keep all solvents and flammables in safe containers and in the cabinet when not in use. Use plenty of ventilation when using flammables so that explosive vapors don't accumulate. Even if they don't explode they can kill you.

Watch for electrical dangers. Keep all cords in good repair. Electrocution can put an end to your time with your toys as well as an electrical fire. Install enough wiring in the proper manner to serve your needs. If you don't understand how to do AC or automotive wiring safely get help from a professional. Most car fires are from improperly installed sound systems or accessories. Connecting wires by twisting them together and covering them with Scotch magic transparent tape or duct tape is not good... Crimp connectors are also a fire waiting to happen if not installed properly. I have seen tape and crimp connectors misused way to many times.

BTW- Don't use PVC for compressed air either...

MXtras · Sep 19, 2008

Great thread so far. Good info from both sides.

Halon extinguishers - I know we spent a ton of money here at work removing our Halon systems on our coating lines. We replaced perfectly good Halon systems with Co2. I believe Halon is on it's way to extinction. Something to consider (if it's accurate!).

I had lightning stike a storage shed a few years ago - nobody home. The shed damage was limited but I lost the contents (lots of engine parts). A sprinkler system would have saved quite a bit. Sure - this was a shed but the lightning could have just as easily struck the shop and I could have lost all of my toys. You just never know.

Scott

fireguy · Sep 19, 2008

There has been good and bad info posted here. My experience with life & safety equipment is a result of 20 years as a firefighter and more importantly, operating my own business since 1978. We ( 4 techs and myself) service automatic fire sprinklers, install and service clean agent special hazard systems, resturant systems, industrial systems, portable fire extinguishers, and fire alarms.
1. Visit the building department. They know the codes for your area, the FD does not. In fact, the FD personnel do not know much about suppression systems, alarm systems or extinguihsers. They just will not admit there ignorance. If you want an inspection, get the building departement. I cannot tell you how many times we make a call, only to be told the FD was just here and everything is fine. We see discharged extinguishers, sprinkler valves in the wrong position and alarms showing trouble indicators.
2. A fire protection engineer or NICET Level 4 will design the sprinkler system.
3. You may be allowed to do the install yourself. If you can, considor CPVC, supplied by Blazemaster. Faster and easier than steel black pipe. Copper also has good flow. Copper will last as long in a sprinkler system as it will in your plumbing system. Contact a local service plumber for advice for using copper in your area. Electroylisis is not common,but does happen. Micro-biological growth can put holes in steel and copper pipe.
4. Residential sprinkler heads are not junk. They meet a different standard, as they serve a different purpose in fire protection than non-residential heads. Commercial heads are designed to save property. Residential heads area designed to save lives, not property. Residential heads will operate with less gpm and less pressure.
5. Fire pumps and tanks may or may not be needed. That depends on your water supply. The engineer or tech will determine that.
6. Upright heads or pendant is a design feature. I like pendant because the piping can be hidden in the attic. Tent plastic over the pipe and insulate over the plastic. Or, insulate underneath the roof sheeting. Dry or antifreeze systems may be an option.
7. Halon extinguishers are still available from Ansul, Amerex, & Badger. Halon is still available for recharges
8. Dry chemical is less expensive but does make a mess. It also controls more fire per pound than the other chemicals, except for water. Amerex has water mist available, using deionized water as the fire fighting agent. We are using water mist in place of halon and halotron. Water mist is not rated for flammable liqueds, but is rated for energized electrical circuits. Contact a local fire extinguishre agency for advice. Do not buy extinguishers with a plastic valve. We will not recharge those. We have hardware stores as accounts, they buy extinguishers from us, but sell the plastic valve extinguishers. Put some extinguishers in the house also. More people are killed or injured by fire in the home than the job site.
9. Read what Torque1st wrote, there are good sugestions there.
10. After you make a decision and install some kind of fire protection, contact the insurance company. You may save some money on your insurance bill.

1redTA · Sep 19, 2008

Sprinkler systems are a nice feature for sure. You need to determine if you can stomach(cost) puting the right size pipe into your garage so that you will have the adequate flow. I think most industrial sprinklers heads are about 8 gallons per minute at 90-100 psi. you need to take the area one head is able to cover and make the necessary provisions for the grid you are going to install. Figure what type of system you are going to have, wet or dry. Determine if the pressure is there for the type of sprinkler(s) you are going to use. What about check valves, retard chambers for presure spike in the system, inspecter test valves and you will need at the least a local alarm for your sprinkler system.
Are you going to put a Fire Dept. Connection in? so they can help your system's volume/pressure. They will need to pre plan your residence

Go back to your local FD and ask for a Firefighter Essentials book and look at all the parts/requirements of a sprinkler system.

FireGuy, shame on a dept that doesn't catch empty extinguishers during an inspection.

mikeyr · Sep 19, 2008

I like to think I am taking this seriously enough, I was against a permit and inspection initially because of like I said already was a incorrect assumption of the "test" every 6 years. I incorrectly assumed it was a test of the sprinkler function which would mean emptying out my garage. Now after talking with the fire fighters and I know better, I have no problem getting full permits and inspections for a sprinkler system.

I also did talk to my insurance agent and yes I can save money with a sprinkler system but only if designed/engineered by approved engineers, another design while it might work great would not qualify me for a discount. Guess what ? my architect/engineer is on my insurance companies list

The existing part of the garage had a sprinkler system on the roof for fire protection when it had cedar shingles, the previous owner (my father-in-law) re-roofed years ago but left all the plumbing in the walls for the rooftop sprinkler system, architect says it will be easy to replumb that into a in the garage sprinkler system for the addition.

Guess I won't be buying that Griott's system after all, so much for trying to save money, bet the sprinklers cost more

(and that is ok)

From reading all the other posts it appears that I should get C02 instead of Halon, so ok...4 of those, plus 3 for the house (one by each entrance/exit).

kf4zht · Sep 19, 2008

On the halon vs CO2 question

Halon pros
Relatively small size for amount of extinguish area
can handle some of the special fires
Less worry about the freezing effect of CO2

Halon cons
VERY EXPENSIVE
Becoming more scarce
Enviromental issues
Harder to get filled

CO2 pros
Cheap
Can be filled anywhere
Long lifespan on cylinders both in terms of fill and rehydro amount
Very effective in closed areas (trash can)

CO2 Downsides
Heavy (don't get a CO2 that isnt at least 30-40# total weight)
Larger

Honestly the most used fire extingusher around here are foam/H2O pressure based. They work well on AB fires, the foam coats oil well and a board sprayed with it will not re-ignite. I have some Fireaid I grabbed when it went out of date at our station, still works fine, we just can't use it on the trucks. Best part about H2O is that all you need to recharge them is a water source and a compressor. Can't find foam? Wildland firefighters use dawn detergent all the time, you would be amazed how well it works.

As far as causes of fires. The number one cause of unattended fires around here is electrical. Bad wiring, cheap power strips, worn extension cords. Most shop fires can be attributed to these, with the usual welding or spark fire easily dealt with since you are there. One note is to have a plastic or steel backstop for constant spark areas (think abrasive chop saw) I have seen boards that started smoldering after a while, could lead to a fire. 5 gallon buckets work wonders.

1redTA · Sep 19, 2008

Halon Cons:
removes oxygen from air chemically.

I noticed you talked about a sprinkler in your entry ways? What if it goes of while u are asleep and the gong doesn't wake you? I think halon near any living/sleeping quarters is probably illegal and very ill advised. Its SCARY

Use some AFFF, DAWN or what not, but AFFF is a corrosive. The down side is the tank you have to have on hand to store the Foam in and what induction system are you going to use with it. :headscrat

flat tire · Aug 30, 2018

I have a total of 8 extinguishers in my garage.
2 water
4 Co2
2 dry powder
I have several of the old carbon tetrachloride glass globes hanging on the wall along with 2 small canister type that emit a really loud siren when activated
2 small extinguishers by my grill outside
with one 5 pound dry powder in the bedroom

Showkey · Aug 30, 2018

Wow 10 years has much changed in the garage fire protection ?

NUTTSGT · Aug 30, 2018

Showkey said:
Wow 10 years has much changed in the garage fire protection ?

Only when it's brought back from the dead from a now banned spammer.

1redTA · Aug 30, 2018

Also AFFF is now considered a carcinogen and any amount spilled or used is a hazmat situation.

driftpin · Aug 30, 2018

Out of all the posters, 'fireguy' gave you the most-accurate and comprehensive information.

I am a certified professional firefighter, now-retired, also a firesafety inspector, a plans examiner, and fire service instructor, still current on my certs. I did plans reviews for high-density residential buildings, commercial and industrial occupancies, and schools, among others, for sprinklers, standpipes, fire pumps, fire suppression water-supplies, fire alarms, and life safety standards. My paid career began 43 years-ago.

Have the system designed by a fire protection engineer, it will be done-right, to your needs, and should you need it, it will function as it was designed. I suggest that it be tied to a central station for alarm notification, and that will probably be required by the AHJ. The central station is responsible for initiating the alarm to the local fire dept in the event of a water flow initiation alarm.

Mention was made of the problem of corrosion. One of the big topics internationally is the occurrence of microbiologically-induced corrosion (MIC) in the steel piping. Nearly-all the fire supression piping is from Communist China now. Research is ongoing as-to the occurrence of MIC. There are sprinkler systems in industrial settings in the USA northeast where maintained systems are nearly 100 years old, still capable of functioning if needed. There are also systems correctly-installed in recent construction which develop MIC in less-than 10 years. It's an industry-wide problem, undergoing continual research.

The use of chlorinated poly-vinyl chloride piping (CPVC) in residential settings is allowed, and would probably be easiest to install at a reasonable cost.

As 'fireguy' said, a NICET card is required to touch a fire alarm system, in general, in some circumstances the supervision of a NICET card-holder is acceptable.

I would not suggest trying to 'bootleg' in an unpermitted system. You said you decided not-to, a wise move.

Some of the comments about firefighters doing unofficial inspections, passing anything you want for a tray of cookies offered by a teenage female, etc, are not anything I would tolerate in the jurisdiction in-which I worked/supervised. Most firefighters are not going to be familiar with the individual requirements for processing plans/plans approval for fire supression systems or alarm systems. If you have a specific question, pose it to the fire plans reviewer, who is usually a member of the fire prevention bureau. You can also go to the NFPA website and do a search in their library of NFPA standards, which is usually the set of standards adopted by state and local governments.

It's a good move on your part to install an approved system, and checking with your insurer can give you an idea of insurance savings. Having a variety of portable extinguishers is a good idea, be sure to get large-enough canisters to do the job on an incipient fire, and use those rated for the types of materials with which you are going to be working. Supposedly the halon systems are being phased-out for the same reason refrigeration gases changed, depletion of the ozone layer.

Investigate, plan, install, inspect/maintain. That will give you a quality installation at a reasonable price for the best protection you can afford, for a long service life, and best results, should it be activated. Before it's installed, good housekeeping and 'hot-work' habits will keep the possibility of fires to a minimum.

jetnow1 · Sep 3, 2018

Personally I chose to use 5/8 drywall and put several fire extinguishers thruout the garage. I do not weld or grind if I plan to leave within the hour. Yes a sprinkler system
is better protection but I do not feel it offers a positive cost/benefit analysis if you use
common sense. If I was building an attached garage and the house had a sprinkler system
to tie into I might think it made sense. Fires can and do happen, no one wants to deal
with the effects, but for me it did not justify. I did check my insurance coverage though.

6768rogues · Sep 3, 2018

When I did code enforcement, we had a lot of discussions about non mandatory systems. There is no doubt that if sprinklers are required they have to meet all standards. If someone has a special hazard and they want to put a single head over it, is that a system that has to be to standards? Is it better to have a few sprinkler heads that are less than compliant or to rip them out and have nothing?
Be careful when you use a CO2 extinguisher. It is a high pressure vessel. If you discharge it at a pool of combustible liquid that is burning you will blow that flaming liquid all over the building, probably making the building burn to the ground. I would rather clean up the mess from another type of extinguisher.
Residential sprinkler systems are far different from commercial systems. Commercial systems are designed for the fire load and will put out the fire. Residential systems do not have the density of water, they are simply intended to give the occupants more time to escape. Residential sprinklers in a garage will give you more time to get out and if the fire department responds quickly, they might save the place. If not, it will burn to the ground with residential sprinklers, but more slowly than without any.

FTG-05 · Sep 4, 2018

driftpin said:
Out of all the posters, 'fireguy' gave you the most-accurate and comprehensive information.

I am a certified professional firefighter, now-retired, also a firesafety inspector, a plans examiner, and fire service instructor, still current on my certs. I did plans reviews for high-density residential buildings, commercial and industrial occupancies, and schools, among others, for sprinklers, standpipes, fire pumps, fire suppression water-supplies, fire alarms, and life safety standards. My paid career began 43 years-ago.

[snip]

I read years ago - and I have no idea if it was true then or now - that said no one has ever died in sprinkler-equipped building. I *think* it was from somewhere in Miami (or somewhere in the PRK) after they mandated sprinkler system for all new construction, residential, industrial, all of it.

jbwilkins · Sep 4, 2018

fireguy said:
...

4. .....Residential heads area designed to save lives, not property. Residential heads will operate with less gpm .......

This is key to keep in mind with a residential system.....don’t expect it to save your garage, just give you a bit more time...

LS6 Tommy · Sep 4, 2018

FTG-05 said:
I read years ago - and I have no idea if it was true then or now - that said no one has ever died in sprinkler-equipped building.

The World Trade Center had fire sprinklers since 1982...

Tommy

NUTTSGT · Sep 4, 2018

We don't have residential sprinklers around me locally. I'm not sure where the closet place is that has them or requires them for residential.

I'll take smoke detectors and fire extinguishers over sprinklers. I've seen the amount of water a sprinkler system can put out. It's not a trickle.

Personally my thoughts, if you have a fire bad enough to trip the sprinkler head, you'll get fire damage and water damage. Call us, you get both also.

Have a power failure and you can't maintain the temperature in the home, the sprinkler lines will freeze, rupture and you get water damage.

Get sub-freezing temps and broken city water lines or just ruptured water lines and the water service to your home is shut down, you'll lose that protection of the sprinkler system.

In the end, you can do all you want to protect you, the family and the home but if fire wants you, it's going to get you.

77Birdman · Sep 4, 2018

Question to the 'experts'. I suffered a catastrophic fire in my last shop. New shop is about done and almost ready to move into. Sprinklers are not an option as there is no support infrastructure, however I plan to get as many wall hung extinguishers as possible. Question is, and I know there are too many variables to pin things down, but is an ABC unit ok to go with. I was thinking about 10 pounders. About a half dozen. I want one in at least every corner

6768rogues · Sep 4, 2018

Birdman, sprinklers are never out of the question, but some installations are more expensive than others. If you have insufficient water, it means you need a tank but that is big money in freezing climates. Tanks, fire pumps, it is all more money. That said, I recommend getting a copy of NFPA 10 and reading it. NFPA 10 is the standard that virtually all codes reference as the bible for fire extinguishers. Reading it will let you know more about fire extinguishers than you ever thought you need to know.
Typically fire extinguishers are placed so that you are never more than a specific distance from one at any time along a natural path of travel. That distance varies with the hazard level. They are also placed along the exit routes, so you can grab one as you retreat. A B C are pretty universal, but I don't know your fire hazards, the amounts of combustibles, how much stuff will be placed making the travel path to exit longer, etc. NFPA 10 will guide you through it.

NUTTSGT · Sep 4, 2018

77Birdman said:
Question to the 'experts'. I suffered a catastrophic fire in my last shop. New shop is about done and almost ready to move into. Sprinklers are not an option as there is no support infrastructure, however I plan to get as many wall hung extinguishers as possible. Question is, and I know there are too many variables to pin things down, but is an ABC unit ok to go with. I was thinking about 10 pounders. About a half dozen. I want one in at least every corner

While I won't claim to be an expert, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing when it comes to my job. 18½ years and honestly, I'm still learning and won't quit learning till the day I retire.

When it comes to extinguisher sizing, that is left to our inspectors. I'm not an inspector nor will I attempt to portray one.

However, I will say this, what you need, depends on the size of the building, the type of occupancy and what the fire load is. A 24'x24' garage won't need the same as a 40'x60' wood working shop which will be different than a upholstery shop with stacks of foam sitting around and employees smoking.

If you're going to buy 10 pounders, I suggest you stop by a local shop that sells and services fire extinguishers. Spend the extra cash and buy ones that can be serviced and refilled rather some from the big box store with a plastic nozzle. Depending on what you do, you may want to get a water extinguisher, sometimes you can find good ones at the scrap yards.

While the cheaper plastic nozzles are better than nothing, the most important thing is knowing how to use it and remaining calm. If you have any doubt when you grab the extinguisher, put it down and get out. Get out, stay out and call 911.

fyrlt1 · Sep 4, 2018

77Birdman said:
Question to the 'experts'. I suffered a catastrophic fire in my last shop. New shop is about done and almost ready to move into. Sprinklers are not an option as there is no support infrastructure, however I plan to get as many wall hung extinguishers as possible. Question is, and I know there are too many variables to pin things down, but is an ABC unit ok to go with. I was thinking about 10 pounders. About a half dozen. I want one in at least every corner

ABC is the best way to go for a typical garage environment, which I assume you are referring to. They can be used on any type of fire you are likely to have, therefore you are not likely to make things worse by accidentally using a wrong extinguisher on the wrong type of fire (electrical proximty or flammable liquids). Just avoid the cheap Kidde type with plastic valves that are sold at retail. Go to a F.E. company and buy some good ones. They will last longer and work better due to typically higher stored pressure for greater effective range. ABCs will leave powdery residue after use but that's better than losing your garage or worse.

1redTA · Sep 5, 2018

Labeling
Fire extinguishers are labeled so users can quickly identify the classes of fire on which the extinguisher will be effective. The marking system combines pictographs of both recommended and unacceptable extinguisher types on a single identification label. Following are examples of typical labels.

Also located on the fire extinguisher label is the UL rating. The UL rating is broken down into Class A and Class B:C ratings. These numerical ratings allow you to compare the relative extinguishing effectiveness of various fire extinguishers. For example, an extinguisher that is rated 4A:20B:C indicates the following:

The A rating is a water equivalency rating. Each A is equivalent to 1 1/4 gallons of water. 4A = 5 gallons of water.
The B:C rating is equivalent to the amount of square footage that the extinguisher can cover, handled by a professional. 20 B:C = 20 square feet of coverage.
C indicates it is suitable for use on electrically energized equipment.
When analyzing these ratings, note there is not a numerical rating for Class C or Class D fires. Class C fires are essentially either a Class A or a Class B fire involving energized electrical equipment where the fire extinguishing media must be non-conductive. The fire extinguisher for a Class C fire should be based on the amount of the Class A or Class B component. For extinguisher use on a Class D fire, the relative effectiveness is detailed on the extinguisher nameplate for the specific combustible metal fire for which it is recommended.

77Birdman · Sep 6, 2018

Thanks for the answers. All great advice. I have been on the fence over buying bulk online or going to a local dealer that can service them. I will do the latter. building is connected but built in 2 parts. Shop space is 24 x 40, with attached garage space that is 24 x 24. Pole barn const. Garage is just that. Parking for 2 work trucks. Shop will be a shared space of woodworking shop, material storage, and a bay to work/restore a car. I am somewhat familiar with placement of extinguishers, I was a commercial building contractor for about 30 years. Very familiar with sprinklers as well. I would like to go that route but theres no budget. I am in the country on a well so a storage tank would be a must. I was working on a car in my last shop and a spark from a grinder burnt it to the ground. I will change my work practices and plan on having a better fire plan this time around.

LifeLongWNYer · Sep 6, 2018

There is a lot of good info in the preceding posts, but I would like to add three points....

1. Often, NOT ALWAYS, but often, a small fire can be either extinguished, or held in check but only one sprinkler head. However, calculate the number of heads you plan to use, and the flow of each, then check your water supply. If the feed to your building is 3/4" copper, only so much water can flow through it. Don't forget to figure in friction loss.

2. If you do install a sprinkler system of any type, install a "water flow switch" and connect it to your alarm system. If a head flows water for any reason, you want your alarm company notifying the local jurisdiction AND you of the flow. Maybe, just maybe, you will be close enough to get to the fire, and extinguish it, faster than the fire department can.

3. If the local jurisdiction has ominous design, installation, testing, etc., requirements, wait until all of your inspections are complete, then install your system. You may not get "credit" for the system, and you may not get the insurance premium reduction, but you will get the protection offered by the system. If you save a garage, and the contents, you won't care if you get an ***-chewing for an "illegal" system. It is YOUR garage, not a nursing home filled with immobile senior citizens.

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