Bought a 2 stage on Ebay. Need advice b/f pickup. Fill time.

bochnak · Jan 29, 2014

I won an auction for a 5hp 2 stage. I plan on paying/picking it up in person this Fri.

Any advice on what to look for would be great.

I'm kind of concerned on how long he mentioned it takes to fill: 15min from 0-175. I found some calcs online and it should be 6min from 0 to 175, which I think may be not be right since it is so fast?

Boyd · Jan 29, 2014

Not sure what you paid, but that's a nice compressor. Six to seven minutes sounds about right. Did he time the pump up time or was it a guesstimate?

retrobuilder · Jan 29, 2014

Got a good cfm with multiple cylinders and two stage- why are you concerned about fill time?

The voltage is 208/230 single phase- You will need either a voltage transformer or perhaps a dedicated 220/230 circuit with proper "breaker". Sometimes a slow start breaker is needed.

I'd just run it from empty to 175 psi when you see it, as long as it does not bog down or cause a motor problem (after more than one empty to fill complete cycles) should be okay.

Looks like it has all the starter parts already?

Drain the tank often

If you plan to lay it down for transport draining oil may be worthwhile to avoid some oil leakage. I transport upright and tie down extra securely.

rsanter · Jan 29, 2014

You need to test it before anything.
Check and see what a gasket kit will cost for it.
There are a couple common problems that it could be.
First I would check all the reed valves, when they get hot you can get some crispy burst oil on the reeds that will prevent them from sealing. To fix this clean them and reassemble.
You can also have worn cylinders if it has a lot of time on it. In this case clean it up and just use it as that can get expensive

Bob

bochnak · Jan 29, 2014

Boyd said:
Not sure what you paid, but that's a nice compressor. Six to seven minutes sounds about right. Did he time the pump up time or was it a guesstimate?

Will pay $221.50

Supposedly a back up for him, hasn't used it in 6 mo, and time was a guesstimate.

bochnak · Jan 29, 2014

retrobuilder said:
Got a good cfm with multiple cylinders and two stage- why are you concerned about fill time?

The voltage is 208/230 single phase- You will need either a voltage transformer or perhaps a dedicated 220/230 circuit with proper "breaker". Sometimes a slow start breaker is needed.

I'd just run it from empty to 175 psi when you see it, as long as it does not bog down or cause a motor problem (after more than one empty to fill complete cycles) should be okay.

Looks like it has all the starter parts already?

Drain the tank often

If you plan to lay it down for transport draining oil may be worthwhile to avoid some oil leakage. I transport upright and tie down extra securely.

I just thought if fill time is excessive, then the pump is "worn"

I totally missed the 208-230V. What will it take to run in my garage?

I plan on laying down in truck bed after draining oil.

bochnak · Jan 29, 2014

Does anyone know what kind of pump is on this thing? Closest thing I was able to find is this bendpak, and found a post that bendpaks have pumas.

http://www.bendpak.com/compressors/air-compressors/ls580v-603.aspx

gtermini · Jan 29, 2014

My 17.5 CFM EnergAir pumps its 60 gallon tank from empty (0 psi) to 170 psi in 3 min and 40 sec.

Greyson

zkling · Jan 30, 2014

15min is about 2x what it should be on that tank for the stated flow rate.
It almost looks like that is not the original pump. :dunno:

The pump could be smaller, could be worn out, belts could be slipping, could have a leak, seller may not have given an accurate time. Lots of factors to consider on this one.

gtermini said:
My 17.5 CFM EnergAir pumps its 60 gallon tank from empty (0 psi) to 170 psi in 3 min and 40 sec.

Greyson

Yep, that calculates out to be correct. :thumbup:

kenburkholz · Jan 30, 2014

The two stage U.S.A. made Campbell Hausfeld compressor pumps up in about three and half minutes, from zero to 175 p.s.i. So that sounds about right for something similar.

gtermini · Jan 30, 2014

bochnak said:
I totally missed the 208-230V. What will it take to run in my garage?

After looking close at the pics, I see that the motor is almost the exact same as mine. Mine is rated at 23 FLA. Yours is also is eqipped with what appears to be the exact same Furnas magnetic starter as I have. I am very happy with the combination. I added a switch between the pressure switch and the mag so I could turn it off without killing the breaker. I am running mine off a 50A 220V dedicated breaker circuit. I have the primary feed to the mag hard wired into a wall box, but it would be fine on a 50A rated three flat blade plug. I also run my Lincoln 255 mig on the same circuit and have to make sure the compressor is off so as to not trip the breaker if the compressor starts while welding. (I know its a bad thing to daisy chain

)

Greyson

hemifalcon · Jan 30, 2014

...I've got to side with the earlier comments.. If its really 15 minutes to fill up to 175--that's quite a bit.. How long does it take to get to 125 or 150?? (Thinking more typical pressures..) What are you using it for?

C96 · Jan 30, 2014

I saw the ad too.

I would take what the seller tells you with a grain of salt.
After all, he states in the listing it’s a single stage compressor and it was purchased in the year 1986.
Well, the pictures you posted clearly show the date of the compressor tag as being 1989

and the tank date is 1988.

When he purchased the compressor he must have been on a 2-3 year waiting list….LOL! :lol_hitti

It seems he is giving ballpark dates and times, so as far as the 15min fill up time, I wouldn’t be too concerned especially for $221.50. :thumbup:

I’m sure it’s actually quicker than that anyway.
Hope it all works out for you,
Good Luck :beer:

OccupantRJ · Jan 30, 2014

If I am seeing correctly, it looks like it might be a little different two stage pump, with both right hand cylinders being primary cylinders, with the left cylinder being the secondary with an intercooler. If so, that's a bit of a strange setup to me, relative to what I usually see. Note the intake filters on two of the cylinders, but none on the third. Anyone else see it this way?

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

gtermini said:
My 17.5 CFM EnergAir pumps its 60 gallon tank from empty (0 psi) to 170 psi in 3 min and 40 sec.

Greyson

gtermini said:
After looking close at the pics, I see that the motor is almost the exact same as mine. Mine is rated at 23 FLA. Yours is also is eqipped with what appears to be the exact same Furnas magnetic starter as I have. I am very happy with the combination. I added a switch between the pressure switch and the mag so I could turn it off without killing the breaker. I am running mine off a 50A 220V dedicated breaker circuit. I have the primary feed to the mag hard wired into a wall box, but it would be fine on a 50A rated three flat blade plug. I also run my Lincoln 255 mig on the same circuit and have to make sure the compressor is off so as to not trip the breaker if the compressor starts while welding. (I know its a bad thing to daisy chain )

Greyson

Good info, thanks!

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

C96 said:
I saw the ad too.

I would take what the seller tells you with a grain of salt.
After all, he states in the listing it’s a single stage compressor and it was purchased in the year 1986.
Well, the pictures you posted clearly show the date of the compressor tag as being 1989

and the tank date is 1988.

When he purchased the compressor he must have been on a 2-3 year waiting list….LOL!
It seems he is giving ballpark dates and times, so as far as the 15min fill up time, I wouldn’t be too concerned especially for $221.50. I’m sure it’s actually quicker than that anyway.
Hope it all works out for you,
Good Luck

I saw the "single stage" in description, however if you look at the pump, only 2 cyl have intakes on it, so the 3rd cyl must be the 2nd stage. I've never seen a single stage go to 175psi. The description and the fact that the auction ended Sunday around church time may have been why I got it for that price...LOL.

I'll time it when I get there.

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

OccupantRJ said:
If I am seeing correctly, it looks like it might be a little different two stage pump, with both right hand cylinders being primary cylinders, with the left cylinder being the secondary with an intercooler. If so, that's a bit of a strange setup to me, relative to what I usually see. Note the intake filters on two of the cylinders, but none on the third. Anyone else see it this way?

Yes, exactly. Check this out:

http://www.bendpak.com/compressors/air-compressors/ls580v-501.aspx

Check out this TK-50 pump:

http://allaircompressorparts.com/tk-50puma5-75hpbarepump.aspx

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

hemifalcon said:
...I've got to side with the earlier comments.. If its really 15 minutes to fill up to 175--that's quite a bit.. How long does it take to get to 125 or 150?? (Thinking more typical pressures..) What are you using it for?

I will see it in person Fri and time it.

This will be replacing my oil less c-man. I hate it due to noise. I don't have any real high demand tools or need for serious air right now, but this will allow me to buy more air tools. Also, I plan on sanding and maybe repainting my chevelle one day.

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

gtermini said:
I am running mine off a 50A 220V dedicated breaker circuit.
Greyson

Greyson, do you think 50A is neccessary? I did a bit or reading and some guys are getting away with 30A, which would be nice since I have #10 wire ready to go.

Eaton has some info on breaker size and it looks like a may need a 40A:

http://www.eatoncompressor.com/AMPDRAWBREAKERSIZE.html

Thoughts?

b-body-bob · Jan 30, 2014

Given the tank size and time he gave you, you can back into the CFM using formulas on this page http://aircompeq.com/formulas.htm

Assuming the calculator is accurate and that I'm using it right, based on the info available, 80 gallon tank, 0-175, 900 seconds, you're getting 8.5 CFM. If it was getting the 21.x CFM it's marked for, it'd take about 364 seconds to fill.

I just looked and see you'd already done that math, sorry for the duplicate info

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

b-body-bob said:
Given the tank size and time he gave you, you can back into the CFM using formulas on this page http://aircompeq.com/formulas.htm

Assuming the calculator is accurate and that I'm using it right, based on the info available, 80 gallon tank, 0-175, 900 seconds, you're getting 8.5 CFM. If it was getting the 21.x CFM it's marked for, it'd take about 364 seconds to fill.

I just looked and see you'd already done that math, sorry for the duplicate info

Exactly, that is why I started the thread. I calculated the same numbers as you did.

I will time it and see what I get.

I figure if it is WAY over 6min, then the pump is not original, or not working properly.

liquidh8 · Jan 30, 2014

Looks like a great score! Hope it works out for you, keeps up posted.

IndyGarage · Jan 30, 2014

At first when I read your post I thought you were going to test the compressor fill time to determine if it is good before paying the seller.

If so that would be both stupid and unethical. You won the auction, you bought it - you take it home to test it.

And really unless it's seriously broken the motor alone is worth that money.

If the tank is slow to fill It probably has either leaky valves or leaky rings in the compressor.

I'd change the oil and filter - lube the motor and run it a bit and see what it needs.

I transport them in the back of my truck standing up. However you have to remember they are extremely top heavy. You have to have good straps - multiple straps, plus safetys to hold it upright. And those things are heavy, you'll need a good hoist setup to get it into and out of a truck.

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

IndyGarage said:
At first when I read your post I thought you were going to test the compressor fill time to determine if it is good before paying the seller.

If so that would be both stupid and unethical. You won the auction, you bought it - you take it home to test it.

And really unless it's seriously broken the motor alone is worth that money.

If the tank is slow to fill It probably has either leaky valves or leaky rings in the compressor.

I'd change the oil and filter - lube the motor and run it a bit and see what it needs.

I transport them in the back of my truck standing up. However you have to remember they are extremely top heavy. You have to have good straps - multiple straps, plus safetys to hold it upright. And those things are heavy, you'll need a good hoist setup to get it into and out of a truck.

I'm just trying to educate myself on what I bought. For local auctions, I like to pay cash at pickup.

The unit is advertised as a 5hp and 21 cfm and per the formulas should fill in 6min. I spoke to owner over the phone prior to bidding and he says it is in perfect working condition.

I want to verify perfect working condition by timing the fill time. If it fills a bit slower, I'm OK with that.

I plan on draining oil and laying it down in truck. Owner has a cherry picker, but I do not have one at destination and will be easier to unload laying down. It will be a few weeks for me to get this thing up and running.

alwaysFlOoReD · Jan 30, 2014

I agree with the above, in that an auction is not the same as buying from a store. if you win, you pay, regardless of conditions.

OccupantRJ · Jan 30, 2014

Be careful with that flywheel. I bought one once with a snapped off crankshaft due to the previous owner's poor handling during a move. I bought the unit for cheap and installed another pump on it. You might consider taking two long and two short 2x4 with you to screw or nail together a quick perimeter box for the tank to lay on it's side inside to chock it for transport. I have moved a LOT of equipment over the years, and the time and effort spent to insure a good ride has always been worth it.

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

OccupantRJ said:
Be careful with that flywheel. I bought one once with a snapped off crankshaft due to the previous owner's poor handling during a move. I bought the unit for cheap and installed another pump on it. You might consider taking two long and two short 2x4 with you to screw or nail together a quick perimeter box for the tank to lay on it's side inside to chock it for transport. I have moved a LOT of equipment over the years, and the time and effort spent to insure a good ride has always been worth it.

Thanks for the tip. I was in the garage last night gathering a bunch of 2x4's. I plan to chock it like you mentioned.

OccupantRJ · Jan 30, 2014

Might want to pick up some small ratchet straps if you don't have any. The pull type always slacken up unless used to pull something with a flexible suspension down.

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

OccupantRJ said:
Might want to pick up some small ratchet straps if you don't have any. The pull type always slacken up unless used to pull something with a flexible suspension down.

I own all pull type. Borrowing some ratchet versions from a co-worker. :thumbup:

scooterbum46 · Jan 30, 2014

I've got a 2 stage C-H 80 gallon 175 PSI rated at 18 CFM, bought in about that same time frame. I've never timed it from dead empty, but agree on the under 10 minute to fill, actually I'd be surprised if it was over 8 minutes.

If it's in good shape, you got a great buy. If the pump is tired, you still got a good buy.. Fill the crankcase with Mobil Rarus 427, plumb the bottom drain with an elbow, short length of pipe coming out from under the tank and a 1/4 turn ball valve to drain it easier and use it.. If you want to do any permanent air plumbing, TP tools has a good diagram in their catalog (and on their web page) showing ideal plumbing setup..

bochnak · Jan 30, 2014

scooterbum46 said:
I've got a 2 stage C-H 80 gallon 175 PSI rated at 18 CFM, bought in about that same time frame. I've never timed it from dead empty, but agree on the under 10 minute to fill, actually I'd be surprised if it was over 8 minutes.

If it's in good shape, you got a great buy. If the pump is tired, you still got a good buy.. Fill the crankcase with Mobil Rarus 427, plumb the bottom drain with an elbow, short length of pipe coming out from under the tank and a 1/4 turn ball valve to drain it easier and use it.. If you want to do any permanent air plumbing, TP tools has a good diagram in their catalog (and on their web page) showing ideal plumbing setup..

Thanks. You summed up how I view this purchase.

I spend some time on TP tools site just the other day. I will be laying out new piping. Thanks for the tips.

sberry · Jan 30, 2014

I agree, worth the risk at that price and then a little.

gtermini · Jan 30, 2014

bochnak said:
Greyson, do you think 50A is neccessary? I did a bit or reading and some guys are getting away with 30A, which would be nice since I have #10 wire ready to go.

Eaton has some info on breaker size and it looks like a may need a 40A:

http://www.eatoncompressor.com/AMPDRAWBREAKERSIZE.html

Thoughts?

I run mine on the 50A circuit because that's what I already had in the wall. I don't see why you couldn't run it on a 30A circuit. I have a 4' run of 10 ga Romex from the box to the mag and even running non stop it doesen't have any temp rise.

Greyson

bochnak · Feb 1, 2014

So I brought it home today.

I should have came more prepared. The pressure gauge on unit does not work and the owner had the outlet wide open and claimed he did not have a plug. This was an auto machine/repair shop mind you

Turned it on and sounded good, except air was coming out middle intake, while sucking on the other. I put my thumb over the outlet and it built what felt like a good amount of pressure for the time.

Drain petcock was clogged and there was a ton of water that came out once removed and poked with screwdriver. Some rusty sludge came out.

Drained oil and looked dirty.

So I started another thread to hopefully ID the pump and see if I can fix the middle cylinder.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3709001#post3709001

zkling · Feb 1, 2014

Uhm, question. How did he test the time to fill if it didn't have a plug? :headscrat

bochnak · Feb 18, 2014

UPDATE:

Got is wired on #10 wire and 30A breaker with no issues.

It takes 25min to fill 0-175psi.

This pump has disc valves on single stage cylinders and reed plate on second stage. I pulled the intake and exhaust valves and cleaned them. Intakes cleaned up nice while exhaust seats are rusty/pitted. Fill up time improved slightly.

I don't know why air is coming out center intake if intake valve is clean and sound. I did swap intake valves between cylinders and problem still exists. I could try swapping exhaust valves but in theory that should not matter?

This is a Puma unit. The pump is a TVP-50 which is similar to the TUK-50 they sell today. I've been in contact with Puma and online parts place and they are telling me that TVP parts are discontinued and might be able to get a few here and there, like gaskets.

I think at a minimum I need new exhaust valves and the gaskets for the reed plate to move forward. There is also quite a bit of air coming out of oil fill cap when removed. This might be normal since there are 3 huge pistons moving in there. Cylinder walls look good on the single stage.

Here is a pic of the 2 intake valves. One cleaned up and the other dirty and untouched:

nine4gmc · Feb 18, 2014

If there is "quiet a bit of air coming out of the oil fill cap", you may have ring issues allowing blow-by.

b-body-bob · Feb 18, 2014

bochnak said:
I don't know why air is coming out center intake if intake valve is clean and sound.

Make sure the valve parts are assembled in the right order. If first stage intake is backward it won't seal and you'll push air out on the compression stroke. If the second stage intake is backward you'll just push air back and forth between stages instead of building pressure. When I was working on my compressor I misread an exploded diagram and put mine together backward, but it's easy to figure out, just think about which way you want air to flow, and which way you want the valve to seal.

bochnak · Feb 18, 2014

nine4gmc said:
If there is "quiet a bit of air coming out of the oil fill cap", you may have ring issues allowing blow-by.

Yes, that is why I mentioned it.

I think I will remove intake valves on single stage cylinders and see if less air is generated in crankcase while running. I can't do anything to second stage to temporarily disable and pressure above piston. Maybe start with an empty tank.

bochnak · Feb 18, 2014

b-body-bob said:
Make sure the valve parts are assembled in the right order. If first stage intake is backward it won't seal and you'll push air out on the compression stroke. If the second stage intake is backward you'll just push air back and forth between stages instead of building pressure. When I was working on my compressor I misread an exploded diagram and put mine together backward, but it's easy to figure out, just think about which way you want air to flow, and which way you want the valve to seal.

OK, thanks. The problem is the same before and after taking valves apart. Problem is also the same when swapping intake valves between cylinders.

Now that I think of it, the middle cylinder ***** and blows out the intake, so the exhaust valve must be bypassing air from other cylinder. I will swap exhaust valves and see if problem follows.

Bought a 2 stage on Ebay. Need advice b/f pickup. Fill time.

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