CMan Drill Press. . . a roll pin Why ?

NUTTSGT · Feb 26, 2014

I bought this Cman drill press off CL about a year ago. I had intended to do some restoration work on it but haven't had the chance to. It had an issue that finally became a problem a few days ago. As you were trying to drill and run the chuck down, something appeared to be slipping, which would keep the bit from entering the material.

After some trouble shooting, I figured the spring (#28)was broke to raise or lower the quill. So I took the cover off and it wasn't broke. I took the shaft assembly that was attached to the handles. It looked ok till I found the handles would turn on the shaft.

Once I got it apart (drilling, punching, hammering and banging) I found it had a roll pin in it. I was expecting a set screw, but I was wrong.

This is what I'm working on by the red Sharpie cap.

The handles, the shaft and roll pin. The roll pin fits in the little hole on the handle head.

Loosely assembled . . .

This is what gets me, why a roll pin ? There is not flat spot on the shaft or no hole for the roll pin to slide into. Just a round shaft that fits in a round hole. What or how, is the roll pin going to keep the handle head from spinning on the shaft ?

I'll be putting a flat spot on the shaft, drilling the head and using a set screw when it goes back together.

exmaxima · Feb 26, 2014

There appears to be a "witness" mark on the shaft where a set screw may have contacted it at some time. Is it possible that someone put the roll pin in by mistake after the set screw fell out?

Flatintoone · Feb 26, 2014

Assuming the roll pin is original and not a replacement for a lost/damaged set screw, the reason for it is likely the same as most other things: money.

NUTTSGT · Feb 26, 2014

exmaxima said:
There appears to be a "witness" mark on the shaft where a set screw may have contacted it at some time. Is it possible that someone put the roll pin in by mistake after the set screw fell out?

I can't find any trace of threads for a set screw

NUTTSGT · Feb 26, 2014

Flatintoone said:
Assuming the roll pin is original and not a replacement for a lost/damaged set screw, the reason for it is likely the same as most other things: money.

This thing came from the early 80's, so that wouldn't seem the case but you never know.

Outlawmws · Feb 26, 2014

Since the holes are there already, get a set screw with a pin at the end and engage the hole on the crank gear.

exmaxima · Feb 26, 2014

NUTTSGT said:
I'll be putting a flat spot on the shaft, drilling the head and using a set screw when it goes back together.

I think I would instead drill ALL THE WAY THRU the head and shaft, and install a pin. There can be quite a bit of torque exerted on the shaft and a set screw is not ideal for that. If you look at vintage presses (such as the classic Delta DP-600) you will see a removable pin. If you drill all the way thru, it would be easy to remove the pin in the future.

jakemac · Feb 26, 2014

It looks to me like the pin is broken off. Are you sure that the rest of the pin isn't still in the shaft ? It may have smoothed off at the shaft and be hidden. Since there is no pin on the drawing, it seems that the whole assembly was designed as one component from the factory and intended to be replaced, not repaired.

scw1991 · Feb 26, 2014

Simple enough fix but clearly a QC oversight as there should be a blind hole drilled into shaft. I would not expect roll pin to be OEM as one would never be able to disassemble without drilling out the roll pin but it's possible. At least you can use hole as a drill guide

DenisG · Feb 26, 2014

Maybe you can use some Dykem blue on the end of the shaft, let it dry, and then polish it. You might find evidence of a solid pin that sheared off.

softailgarage · Feb 26, 2014

I agree with the pin looking like it's broken off. Does the parts list/drawing show a roll pin? If not, chances are it's not original and somebody tweaked it. Either way it has to be fixed and I think Outlaw has the right idea with the set screw.

454ragtop · Feb 26, 2014

Sure looks like a mashed over pin in a hole in the shaft in your last pic. Might consider going to the next larger diameter roll pin, after drilling the holes bigger of course. Easy to do in a drill press.......
HTH, Jim

zkling · Feb 26, 2014

Flatintoone said:
Assuming the roll pin is original and not a replacement for a lost/damaged set screw, the reason for it is likely the same as most other things: money.

Actually I have a feeling that the pinion shaft is drilled a ways through and the pin is used to lock the pieces together. A roll pin would be more suited to take the shear loads in this case and wouldn't have the tendency to back out like a threaded screw would.

exmaxima said:
I think I would instead drill ALL THE WAY THRU the head and shaft, and install a pin. There can be quite a bit of torque exerted on the shaft and a set screw is not ideal for that. If you look at vintage presses (such as the classic Delta DP-600) you will see a removable pin. If you drill all the way thru, it would be easy to remove the pin in the future.

scw1991 said:
Simple enough fix but clearly a QC oversight as there should be a blind hole drilled into shaft. I would not expect roll pin to be OEM as one would never be able to disassemble without drilling out the roll pin but it's possible. At least you can use hole as a drill guide

O you think they actually care about the user repairing that. :spit:

That's a good one. You can pull blind roll pins, just not easily. They are used quite a bit in gear boxes to prevent the less skilled from tampering with things.

nine4gmc · Feb 27, 2014

softailgarage said:
I agree with the pin looking like it's broken off. Does the parts list/drawing show a roll pin? If not, chances are it's not original and somebody tweaked it. Either way it has to be fixed and I think Outlaw has the right idea with the set screw.

also agree with pin broken and whut he said^

GirlnAgarage · Feb 27, 2014

Why a roll pin? I'm thinking that was someone's bad fix.

I had a look at my 50s Cman DP and while not the same identical part, it is the same variation of idea - shaft inserted in to the larger round. Mine uses a pin through and through. I don't see why you couldn't do the same for yours.

exmaxima said:
I think I would instead drill ALL THE WAY THRU the head and shaft, and install a pin. There can be quite a bit of torque exerted on the shaft and a set screw is not ideal for that. If you look at vintage presses (such as the classic Delta DP-600) you will see a removable pin. If you drill all the way thru, it would be easy to remove the pin in the future.

I agree.

Steinmetz · Feb 27, 2014

Don't despair. The diagram clearly states that: "Repair service is available at your nearest Sears store".

Typical Sears ****.

wayne55 · Feb 27, 2014

I have a very similar if not the same Craftsman drill press from the 80's. I just went and looked at it and it definitely has a roll pin there and mine is original. The roll pin does not go all the way thru as there is just the one hole where you see the end of the roll pin.

Steinmetz · Feb 27, 2014

BTW, these low-cost drill presses were pumped out like presto logs in some plant in western Manchuria. They are widely available at low cost.

larry_g · Feb 27, 2014

Maybe another look at this. Was the roll pin there to be proud of the collar and provide a down stop by preventing the pinion gear from turning more than 360* ? Was the handle adapter originally a press fit on the pinion shaft?

lg
no neat sig line

NUTTSGT · Feb 27, 2014

I never thought the the roll pin might have been broken off, never occurred to me. I will definitely check that tomorrow under the magnifying lamp. I think it was just a witness mark on the shaft.

I considered drilling all the way through but I'm not sure how my little Skil bench top DP will handle the chore.

I'll post up tomorrow with what I find out.

Thanks for the advice, ladies and gentlemen. :beer:

gtermini · Feb 27, 2014

Roll pins and blind holes do not mix. If the roll pin is original, I suspect there is a through hole for it somewhere, otherwise there isn't a snowball's chance of ever getting it out.

Greyson

rharman · Feb 27, 2014

NUTTSGT said:
I never thought the the roll pin might have been broken off, never occurred to me. I will definitely check that tomorrow under the magnifying lamp. I think it was just a witness mark on the shaft.

I considered drilling all the way through but I'm not sure how my little Skil bench top DP will handle the chore.

I'll post up tomorrow with what I find out.

Thanks for the advice, ladies and gentlemen.

Chicken and Egg problem..... You need the big DP in order to make the fix. :willy_nil

On a more serious note, it must be snapped off as several have suggested.

zkling · Feb 27, 2014

NUTTSGT said:
I never thought the the roll pin might have been broken off, never occurred to me. I will definitely check that tomorrow under the magnifying lamp. I think it was just a witness mark on the shaft.

I considered drilling all the way through but I'm not sure how my little Skil bench top DP will handle the chore.

I'll post up tomorrow with what I find out.

Thanks for the advice, ladies and gentlemen.

I wouldn't even use a drill press in that case. The pinion shaft should already have a partial deep hole. Use that as a guide and a hand drill with a good bit. If you want it super tight you could undersize it and ream.

NUTTSGT · Feb 28, 2014

A little update for my GJ friends.

As you can see in this picture, not much more than a witness mark, if you could call it that. Other than that, nothing for the roll pin to slide into or stop against.

So I began the task of drilling out the shaft in anticipation of a roll pin. Since I want it to go all the way through the handle head, I need to get a longer bit to finish the job. Hopefully, I can find one tonight.

NUTTSGT · Feb 28, 2014

While I'm doing this work, I figured now is the time to start restoring the drill press. Maybe not all at once but I can do a few things right now. The shafts for the handles had the evidence of being stored somewhere not friendly to tools. I hit them with a blue roloc disc, then by hand with a gray scotchbrite pad and followed that up with some Mother's, a sock and a drill. The bottom shaft wasn't done in the picture.

What they used to look like.

Outlawmws · Feb 28, 2014

I went back to the first post, and I think there WAS a set screw there originally, and it slipped (look at the most recent pics for the score marks).

Someone with more muscle than brains over-tightened it and completely stripped out everything. Why the roll pin? Possibly a 2nd owner saw a clean empty hole and jammed one in to try to get it to engage couldn't and gave up and sold it... :dunno:

After scoring it up I'l bet it was a pain to get the crank handle hub off the shaft...

NUTTSGT · Feb 28, 2014

Outlawmws said:
I went back to the first post, and I think there WAS a set screw there originally, and it slipped (look at the most recent pics for the score marks).

Someone with more muscle than brains over-tightened it and completely stripped out everything. Why the roll pin? Possibly a 2nd owner saw a clean empty hole and jammed one in to try to get it to engage couldn't and gave up and sold it...

After scoring it up I'l bet it was a pain to get the crank handle hub off the shaft...

If, there was a set screw at one time, they drilled out the hole for the roll pin. I seriously doubt there was ever a set screw in it. Wayne55 looked at his and it has a roll pin also.

NUTTSGT · Feb 28, 2014

At this time, it looks good. I finished drilling through the head and drove in a roll pin. I had to recess the roll pin since it was about 5/8" shorter than the width of the head. Hard to see but if you know what you are looking for, you can see the roll pin and flashlight on the other side.

I'll also throw this in for the clean garage haters. :beer:

Most of this will be cleaned up tomorrow and back to a clean bench.

wayne55 · Mar 1, 2014

I don't have a picture, but I wanted to re-confirm that my Craftsman press definitely has a roll pin there. I hope mine holds. On my parts diagram, like yours, it just shows an assembly and does not break it down to the point of showing the roll pin.

Outlawmws · Mar 1, 2014

Wayne 55, is yours through or blind?

Someone mentioned this being made in Asia, is that true? Clearly Nuttsgt's shaft was not drilled, I suppose it could have got assembled and the factory worker busted the pin off trying to drive it in anyway, leaving the marks... then said WTF, I'm not scrapping anything, they will doc me, and tossed it to the "good" belt/bucket. Light press fit to the owner... Bet that went well...

wayne55 · Mar 1, 2014

It's a blind hole. It does not go all the way through to the other side.

rharman · Mar 1, 2014

NUTTSGT said:
I'll also throw this in for the clean garage haters. Most of this will be cleaned up tomorrow and back to a clean bench.

Horrors! How can you live in such disarray?? :lol_hitti

NUTTSGT · Mar 1, 2014

Outlawmws said:
Wayne 55, is yours through or blind?

Someone mentioned this being made in Asia, is that true? Clearly Nuttsgt's shaft was not drilled, I suppose it could have got assembled and the factory worker busted the pin off trying to drive it in anyway, leaving the marks... then said WTF, I'm not scrapping anything, they will doc me, and tossed it to the "good" belt/bucket. Light press fit to the owner... Bet that went well...

I believe I did look at mine once I got it home and it was made in Tawain, I won't swear to it though.

wayne55 said:
I don't have a picture, but I wanted to re-confirm that my Craftsman press definitely has a roll pin there. I hope mine holds. On my parts diagram, like yours, it just shows an assembly and does not break it down to the point of showing the roll pin.

If it doesn't hold, it's a fairly easy fix. The worst was trying to figure out the "WTF" of it. FWIW, I used a 3/16"x2" roll pin. The smaller 1/8" roll pin I thought of using looked too small and the thought of it coming apart (shearing the pin) raced through my head, sometimes bigger is better. :beer:

NUTTSGT · Mar 1, 2014

rharman said:
Horrors! How can you live in such disarray??

I made sure to clean up the mess this evening before I can in. I lost too much sleep last night and wanted a good night's sleep tonight.

CMan Drill Press. . . a roll pin Why ?

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