Starting over... again. 30x40 shop build project = "Sutton Shop"

xrdad · Mar 9, 2014

It's been a crazy time around here, but all the insanity may have finally paid off.

I've recently completed (90%) my current garage, after hours upon hours of reading through various threads. I've done the Epoxy Coat floor (won it right here on GJ!), added a heating source (NG fireplace), wired for welders... all with the help/advice of GJ members.

One comment on my most recent build stuck to me:
Kevin54 said "you're trying to shove 10lbs into a 5lbs bag" and damn it... he was right.

I did manage to get close to my goals, but my shop was never ever going to be right. Just recently, an opportunity presented itself and I've taken it - a small home that is in need of a complete renovation soon, 2 acres of reasonably flat dry land and 250' of river front on a quiet country road.

No garage, no nothing.

We will be moving to this diamond in the rough and first thing on the list?

30x40 SHOP!! :thumbup:

Well, at least it's looking promising. A call to the township, to the concrete guy, the hydro company and the conservation authority confirms that the build is possible and will be... ahem, within budget. I'm just waiting on the framers to confirm what boxing it all up will cost. Then, if it's all good, time to dream up what this shop will be and what it will need.

And once again, I will be looking for advice from GJ members on the best practices and smart choices to make on my build.

By end of week, I will know if the cost is going to be OK.
I'm hoping to add a scissor lift, to have a 16w x 12h door, in floor heating and a 3 piece washroom.
I want to build a room to house the boiler and the air compressor.

My 'crete guy has suggested an 8' wall (4' frost wall underground, 4' above grade). Then, a 6' stick wall with scissor trusses to give me all the room I need for the hoist, without making the garage too big for the raised bungalow house.

There ya go... an entry log for what is hopefully going to be an interesting thread for all :beer:

WarrenJ · Mar 9, 2014

Good luck with the move and build. Looking forward to updates.

xrdad · Mar 11, 2014

From the top down or bottom up?

When planning such a build, how do those that are successful and happy with their build do it?

The municipality have given me the tentative green light for the project. It will fit on the land, and if done correctly, will pass all of their criteria. The ball park quote for concrete/foundation is acceptable and my budget will support it. Looking at the location of the shop on the site, I see no reason why the conservation authority would block it.

The only quote I'm waiting on to start planning is the framer. I looked at scissor trusses and the price is OK, so I can't imagine the framer's quote to cause any issues.

So, what do I do now?
The basic foot print is 30x40. I intend to have an 8' wall poured (4' in the ground) and if I put a 6' stick wall on that, I have 10' at the eaves. The scissor trusses will likely give me 13+ feet in the middle, enough for a lift.

But is this the right way to go? In Canada, insulating is 'required'! Will a scissor truss be to difficult to work with? Does the concrete wall 'have' to be insulated and would a 10' stick wall be smarter?

How do you decide?
Vinyl siding to match the house, or steel to by maintenance free?
I keep drawing out my ideas, but am creating so many questions in the process.

Where do you start?

Diesel Dan · Mar 11, 2014

For insulation purposes I'd consider 1-2 course of block above grade and the rest stick built.

If there are no height restrictions I'd just go with 14' side walls. Cost of scissor trusses will be offset by cost of extra lumber, to a degree. Then you can blow in as much insulation as your heart desires.

xrdad · Mar 11, 2014

I kinda figured cost wise would cancel each other out... but the reason for the scissor truss was to keep the overall height of the building in check with the house.

Maybe not a realistic idea?

xrdad · Mar 11, 2014

Plus, this might help to imagine the project

msgross · Mar 11, 2014

I'm doing the same, 30 deep by 40 wide by 10ft walls with two garage doors towards the left side. Only the first bay will have scissor truss' all others will be normal for storage. 6/12 outer pitch with 3/12 inner pitch should yield over a 13' peak.

I'm doing a pole barn for budget reasons, since it will be 100+ft away from my house i'm doing metal instead of vinyl. Too many options, I agree with the lower walls since I want it to look like a normal garage vs a commercial shop.

xrdad · Mar 11, 2014

Dear framers on GJ,

I just got a rough quote/guesstimate for my shop. Ouch.

So for arguments sake, if I build a 6' stud wall on my concrete wall, install scissor trusses, one 16x12' door, one man door... I cover the roof with a good (not great) shingle and finish the exterior in plywood... a 30x40 building - does $28000 sound like a lot? We're not counting the 'crete work, just the framing/roof/door.

That's a lot more than I guessed. A LOT!

Barlow L · Mar 11, 2014

Considering my 40x60x14 clear span steel building with insulation and two 12x12 roll up doors was only 17K, delivered, I would have had a stroke at that price.

Bib Overalls · Mar 11, 2014

Sounds high to me. If you can remodel a house you can frame a shop. I have 30x40x10 with the steel equivalent of scissor trusses. A lot of space. Mine is built on a turn down edged slab. If you have to go down 4' then I recommend coming up 1' and framing with 9' studs. Don't forget ridged foam under your slab and on the outside of your foundation.

Diesel Dan · Mar 11, 2014

xrdad said:
I cover the roof with a good (not great) shingle

IMO, go with steel roofing.

From the looks of the house 14' side walls on a shop shouldn't stand out too much. What is the height of the eaves on the house now?

msgross · Mar 12, 2014

My 30x40x10 pole barn quote with 2 10x8 doors, scissor truss over one bay, 12" overhang all around and 5" concrete with fiber was $16,750. I had to prep the site and have stone deleivered.

You can add shingles and vinyl siding to a pole barn and still be under $20,000.

The Tate · Mar 12, 2014

My 30x40 lumber cost was about $4k, standard trusses. Around $3500 for two 16x8, one 10x8 and two man doors, and $7k for the exterior finished with vinyl and asphalt shingles. So less than $15k. I can't see being charged $13k for labour to frame the building. This is in the Calgary area, where everyone is presumed to be rolling in money.

xrdad · Mar 12, 2014

Diesel Dan said:
IMO, go with steel roofing.

From the looks of the house 14' side walls on a shop shouldn't stand out too much. What is the height of the eaves on the house now?

Not sure for sure.. move in is May 15th, but I'd guess at 12-14'.

Bib, thanks for the reminder... insulate, insulate, insulate! And mostly for the vote of confidence :3gears:

There isn't much I haven't tried to do, and very few things that I've been unsuccessful at.

Tate, I'm so disappointed. My 18 y/o son told me he was going to Alberta to make his first million!! You mean it' s not true? :thumbup:

Thanks for the info though.. and I convinced him to stay here in the center of the universe (or is it the armpit? I forget). :beer:

You guys pretty much reinforced what I already thought. I can't afford to make someone else rich right now. I'll get a couple more quotes, and if it doesn't improve I'm going to have to get past my fears and do it myself.

jwhcars · Mar 12, 2014

I would look for a Amish community, I'm not sure that they are in your area. They are good , fast and honest. Watching them do a barn raising is an amazing thing to see.
I know that some groups travel to do jobs but you have to provide transportation and lodging. They don't drive or have electric or indoor bathrooms in their houses
Just a thought.

The Tate · Mar 13, 2014

xrdad said:
Tate, I'm so disappointed. My 18 y/o son told me he was going to Alberta to make his first million!! You mean it' s not true? Thanks for the info though.. and I convinced him to stay here in the center of the universe (or is it the armpit? I forget).

Just about everyone makes a million in Alberta, just takes a few (many) more years for some than others.

larry_g · Mar 13, 2014

One question I would have to ask is with the design. With a 6' wall height I would assume that no standard piece of lumber would be used. A lot of cutting and fitting to make this happen so labor starts to add up. Look at your plans and where all the cutting and fitting have to take place vs just grabbing a standard length stud and nailing it in.

Just what are you getting for your $28k? Is that a sealed up building with interior wallboard and roofing installed or a bare frame still needing sheathing, roofing, and finishing?

lg
no neat sig line

xrdad · Mar 14, 2014

larry_g said:
One question I would have to ask is with the design. With a 6' wall height I would assume that no standard piece of lumber would be used. A lot of cutting and fitting to make this happen so labor starts to add up. Look at your plans and where all the cutting and fitting have to take place vs just grabbing a standard length stud and nailing it in.

Just what are you getting for your $28k? Is that a sealed up building with interior wallboard and roofing installed or a bare frame still needing sheathing, roofing, and finishing?

lg
no neat sig line

First, for 28k, it was the framing portion on the concrete wall/standard truss/2 12' doors/2 windows/man door/steel roof (standard shed style).

2nd, I chose 6' walls because I like the 4' concrete wall for the durability and ease of care. Washing cars, banging into it and stuff... seems to make sense to me. The 6' stud wall will keep the roof line to a minimum, and not overpower the house. I started to think about the work of cutting every piece like you mentioned, but then... are 8' studs "really" 8'? or will I be trimming every piece anyway?

Your logic makes a lot of sense and if I don't need to cut the 8' studs, I might just comprimise: go to a 3' stem wall, an 8' stud wall and the height shouldn't be too much compared to the house.

kbs2244 · Mar 14, 2014

I do not know the sizes in metric Canada, but in the US it is common to get studs precut to 91.5 inches.
With a 1.5 bottoms plate and a double 1,5 top plate that will give you a 96 inch finished wall panel height.
Just right for 4x8 foot plywood sheathing.
Your 72 inch finished height walls would require 67.5 studs and cutting you sheathing into 2x8 panels.
That cutting would not be a big deal for an onsite crew.

xrdad · Mar 14, 2014

kbs2244 said:
I do not know the sizes in metric Canada, but in the US it is common to get studs precut to 91.5 inches.
With a 1.5 bottoms plate and a double 1,5 top plate that will give you a 96 inch finished wall panel height.
Just right for 4x8 foot plywood sheathing.
Your 72 inch finished height walls would require 67.5 studs and cutting you sheathing into 2x8 panels.
That cutting would not be a big deal for an onsite crew.

You sir, are brilliant!
Thank you!!

I believe that the best thing to do: because of our temperatures, I'm doing the 4' below grade for frost. Then, 2' above grade with the 8' wall suggested by kbs. My eaves will be at 10' as desired, keeping the profile low. I'll have 2' of concrete to blast my pressure washer at, and will maybe tile 2' above on the drywall for a total of 4' of protection. With the 'crete only 2' high, it will be easy to lift the walls into place.

I love GJ! You guys ROCK! :rocker:

xrdad · Mar 14, 2014

I will start to get quotes on the scissor truss next and research how to install. I also need to figure out the rough openings for the concrete guy, and still lots to work on...

This weekend, I'll try to come up with a floor plan and new questions. I still have to research in floor heating and how it's done, best place to locate the boiler, type of boiler, etc...

I want hot water in my shop too, for my detailing side line. Not sure if the boiler can do both?

I have to learn about aluminum capping for the exposed wood around the doors/windows. I know nothing of this art work.

My floor is quoted at 4". Is that OK, or should I consider more?

The Tate · Mar 14, 2014

What was your original plan for electrical? Exposed conduit, or are you going to run it through the studs? The 6' concrete walls would dictate exposed, but at least now you have the option.

I've got in floor heat in me 30x40, 1200' of tubing on 5 or 6 runs. 55000 BTU boiler. I don't know if you could use it for hot water for washing. Mine is a closed system. And it has glycol in it in case it shuts off in the winter.

My pad is also 4" thick. I have only one real crack in the floor, in one corner. I have 4' frost walls as well, only comes up 3.5" above the floor (2x4 ladder built in the top to nail the walls to originally). But since the weight of the garage is on the foundation, I wouldn't think it would be necessary to go overly thick on the pad. Especially one that is at a consistent temperature. Other than the first 10 months, mine has had warm water flowing through it constantly.

xrdad · Mar 14, 2014

Tate,

my electrician friend suggested we put a PVC tube into the foundation wall (it's 8", not 6). The tube would exit 3' below grade and the other end through the base plate of the wall. This will let me hide all the electrical. Should look really clean.

I think you're right about the boiler being a closed system. The house on this property is also hydronic heating (has the baseboard type) and it has a separate water heater.

Do you have a schematic or resource I could use to plan my heat requirements?

The Tate · Mar 14, 2014

I can email you the hydronic plans that my contractor emailed me. Send me a PM if you want (unless newbs aren't able to send/receive PMs?) Its not accurate to what was actually installed into mine in terms of layout, as the manifold location is different, which changed (simplified) the runs. But it'll give you an idea. I farmed that whole project out other than wiring in the boiler, so they did all the calculations for heat requirements and losses. For 1186 sq ft interior, two 16x8 and one 10x8 R16 doors, and two man doors, R20 walls and R40 attic, they came up with 32000 BTU for the system. It might be best to talk to a few contractors to see what they come up with, even if its just to get some specs on system requirements.

xrdad · Mar 23, 2014

Thank you Tate for the diagrams.
Those will give me a starting point to figuring out the heating system.

Moving on - good news:
Spoke to the Conservation authority. Seem like a nice guy, willing to offer advice and is friendly. So far, all the player are suggesting the shop can be built.

Spoke to the lumber yard manager and got a guesstimate quote for the materials. Me thinks the framer that quoted $28K to close up my shop was building up a retirement fund?
Rough guess on scissor trusses, the 91" studs suggested by kbs2244, sheathing, gaskets, seals, etc... <8K.
He did spec shingles though and said the tin roof would be more... didn't say how much more.
I suspect if you deduct the sheathing needed on the roof for shingles and replace with strapping and tin, shouldn't be a huge difference?

Now that the building quote is in my budget and the permit holders feel that the building should be approved, I can start the draft design

xrdad · Mar 23, 2014

So, before I start drawing, a couple of other things...

a good friend stopped in and offered to help with the framing. He's built barns, sheds, shops and his own house. He's certainly qualified. And the labour is near free

He agreed with me to have a professional install the trusses though. Not because we can't do it, but because is a big job for 2 guys to do after regular work hours and weekends. A framer with a crew can do the job in a few days (installing the tin roof ideally).
Plus, I don't like heights.

He also looked over my draft plan and made another suggestion that I like, but am not sure how to do it?

The front door (16wx12h) is on the 30' wall. The front 30' of the shop is dedicated to car/work space. At the back, I will build 2 small rooms, about 5wx10d, leaving just short of 20'x10 feet for a dedicated bench/shop space.

One room is for a bathroom, the other is for the boiler/air compressor/etc.
It was suggested to only complete the floor in the back 10' of the shop for now and leave the rest of the garage not done.
That will allow the ground to settle completely, give me time to purchase a scissor lift, save some $$ for the job.

Problem. If I use in floor heating and only finish the space that the boiler sits in, how will I run the remainder of the pipes later?
Note, I wouldn't be heating the finished space with water in the beginning. Just a space heater for the now....

Check out the diagram to see if you understand our plan and feel free to poke holes in it...
(ps - another reason to do this is to get the rest of my tools out of the weather quickly, but I think the right way is to simply find more $$ and finish the whole floor)

xrdad · Sep 19, 2014

Earth is being moved!

Drawings submitted and approved! Here's the final design:
30w x 40d x 13'h (ceiling/soffit). A 4' deep block wall foundation with a run of blocks at the grade. Double plate bottom, 12' stud, single plate at top. A 16 x7' residential looking roll up door on the front, a 12x12 door on the back, steel roof with 2' overhang all around.

I used the short door on the front to keep a residential look and because most of the time I just work on cars or bikes. The big door on the back in just in case I want to do something bigger. I have a 15' wide driveway along the back side of the shop to access it.
Because there will be a significant space above the front door, I will add a roof to the front later on, acting like a car port and still toning down the size of the shop from the street. The roof line will follow the house exactly, tying the two together.

This was the easy part.
Now, as the digging starts, I have to make sure that everything that needs to go in before back filling is done.

Main wiring from hydro pole
In floor heating

I think the wiring will be easy enough to figure out. A new service will be added to the shop (200amp), that will eventually feed the house and replace the existing panel there. To keep things clean, I'll install conduit from the shop (under floor) to the house. The existing above ground lines will all be removed when I'm done.

In floor heating - HVAC guys.... please help!
I've decided to go with an outdoor wood boiler, the gasification type (Polar)

The unit will be installed in a shed connected to the back of the garage. I'll run a look in the slab for it also, heating the shed. This unit will heat the shop, the house, DHT and the pool if I want.
The plan is to do in floor heating in the shop, and when the house renos start, remove the existing oil burning boiler there and renew the hydronic system in there too. I'll need to pass the lines from the boiler to the house, and it will be split in the shed to heat the shop. The boiler specs confirm this can be done.

So, my question is about insulation - both under floor and walls. So many threads on this, maybe you can just point to the best one or advise as per my build. It will be a 6" slab in the shop. I think I need 2" hard insulation on top of a 6 mil vapour barrier. I need a specific type of PEX, right?
I've lost on whether to suspend the PEX to the rebar, or clamp it to the styrofoam? I think insulating the entire floor is the right way, not this "heat sink" idea of leaving a section uninsulated. And I still have to figure out insulating the walls below grade (how deep/thick/inside or out).

On the subject of insulation... spray foam in the walls or batt?

msgross · Sep 19, 2014

lots of posts on here about insulation, cost vs. performance seems to be the big question. Spray foam seems to be the best choice, but the price isn't cheap. I've seen foundation walls formed in special styrofoam forms as well.

xrdad · Sep 25, 2014

Like any other posts, worthless without pictures, right?

Today, the physical build starts.

To be clear, the intent is only to get the shell up this year before the snow. If the weather remains mild, electrical and insulation will be installed over the winter...

:beer:

xrdad · Oct 15, 2014

Footing and foundation complete.
Hydro trench dug, DB2 in, caution tape in...

Doors, trusses, roof ordered.

Anchors are all in, and back filling both the shop and the hydro trench should be done by end of week.

xrdad · Oct 15, 2014

Update to plan :

A 16 x7' door on the front = 16x8 now

In floor heating - I've decided to go with an outdoor wood boiler = NOT

I've confirmed that the boiler that is currently in the house will be sufficient to heat both buildings. As much as I like the OWB, there is always the issue with feeding the fire when I'm not home. Wifey is not interested, kids not trusted. So, re using what I have saves me a few $$ and solves the feeding problem. Add oil, have heat.

And, if I ever want to change, the oil fired boiler can always be switched out later.

ratdoggy · Oct 15, 2014

msgross said:
I'm doing the same, 30 deep by 40 wide by 10ft walls with two garage doors towards the left side. Only the first bay will have scissor truss' all others will be normal for storage. 6/12 outer pitch with 3/12 inner pitch should yield over a 13' peak.

I'm doing a pole barn for budget reasons, since it will be 100+ft away from my house i'm doing metal instead of vinyl. Too many options, I agree with the lower walls since I want it to look like a normal garage vs a commercial shop.

I'd do this but specify attic trusses and then you'll have a "real" storage area. My home garage is regular trusses and although I can stand up there easily and it's huge I can't put anything up there if it isn't a box of fluffy stuff. Wish I was involved with the build and not bought a "spec" home

BigGMC · Oct 15, 2014

xrdad said:
Update to plan :

I've confirmed that the boiler that is currently in the house will be sufficient to heat both buildings. As much as I like the OWB, there is always the issue with feeding the fire when I'm not home. Wifey is not interested, kids not trusted. So, re using what I have saves me a few $$ and solves the feeding problem. Add oil, have heat.

And, if I ever want to change, the oil fired boiler can always be switched out later.

Just stumbled across your thread.... exciting! Looks good so far. Keep the updates coming.

I hear ya about the OWB - that's my delimma, I'm the only one who would feed it, cut the wood, ect. I'd like to have one tho.

Who confirmed the house boiler is big enough? Your're picking up about 1200 sqft of heating load (garage is 30x40?). That's like another small house...... which means the current house boiler is/was waaay oversized. Guess that's a moot point now, but i gotta believe you're going to burn through oil like crazy. You haven't spent a winter in this house yet have you?

How far from the the house is the garage? How big a circulator to push that far.? Also, radient floor heat works best with low temp water, lower than what the house baseboard system will be circulating.

Sorry to give you more things to lose sleep over, but this is what immediatly popped into my mind.

xrdad · Oct 16, 2014

BigGMC said:
Who confirmed the house boiler is big enough? Your're picking up about 1200 sqft of heating load (garage is 30x40?). That's like another small house...... which means the current house boiler is/was waaay oversized. Guess that's a moot point now, but i gotta believe you're going to burn through oil like crazy. You haven't spent a winter in this house yet have you?

How far from the the house is the garage? How big a circulator to push that far.? Also, radient floor heat works best with low temp water, lower than what the house baseboard system will be circulating.

BigGMC, you're right... I haven't had a winter in this house yet. The original owner (lives just up the road) told me that I should expect to use between 2 and 3 tanks (tank is 900L / 240 US gal) per year. The house was a rental and this was his average.
The shop IS the same size as the house, but will be kept much cooler (60F).

The boiler has two settings - high or low temp, and is currently using the high temp because of the baseboard heaters. Once the house gets renovated, both building will be low temp.

You've hit a nerve though with the $$$ to operate :lol_hitti

I just got off the phone with the company that services the boiler. They suggested that it's big enough for both buildings. It's rated between 63 and 83k BTU. As you've probably guessed, I have no clue about this :dunno:

And just now, the idea of running the line to the house through the floor was "poo poo'ed". They feel it's in my best interest to run a separate line for the house from the boiler. I think I have to agree: What if I had a line fail? The shop floor would have to be removed?!!!

So, with your instinct about $$$ to heat, and the now 120+ of insulated pex required, and my home reno on a different schedule then heating the garage... maybe this isn't going to work.

I've heard some use a dedicated hot water tank to heat their shop floor... would this be better for me too?

xrdad · Oct 16, 2014

For reference... boiler guys might be able to help...

xrdad · Oct 30, 2014

Time for some shop updates:

xrdad · Oct 30, 2014

So walls and roof should be done by Sunday. Doors will be done by 2nd week of Nov. The building should be completely enclosed by then.

The floor, as mentioned will be poured next spring giving everything a chance to settle AND me a chance to figure out how to heat this space.

I've gotten some good advice reading threads, great advice from some members and strange advice from friends/local vendors.

The floor insulation is here now, and will be piled in the shop for the winter while I start running all the electrical and insulate.

I think the pex layout will be fairly easy so the pour shouldn't be a big deal. Really, it's still what to use to heat the water? Electric, LP or Oil.

Long term thinking is electric could be good.. couple of solar panels to offset the cost MIGHT be realistic. But many have suggested it's going to be $$$$ to operate.

LP is the next logical choice (long term). When the house gets reno'd, I want a gas oven and fireplace. 1 large tank feeding both buildings would be convenient... but propane CAN be $$$$ (winter 2013/14, cost increased 3x regular price)

Oil is the least desirable, although that's what I have now and would be the simplest. But the added insurance costs make it at least as expensive as LP.

Figuring out what to use is really not a simple task!
If NG was available, there'd be no argument at all :lol_hitti

xrdad · Nov 3, 2014

Status update:

Walls up, top plate on and all plumb.
Trusses on top and should be ready for the tin roof by end of day :3gears:

xrdad · Dec 3, 2014

Garage doors should be on next week! :evil:

xrdad · Jul 6, 2015

Wow.. this is turning out to be the slowest build ever.

While it's going to be a great shop, I'm disappointed in how long it's taken me to get this far.

Anyway, shop doors got installed and the wiring is almost finished.
I've installed the insulation on the foundation walls and once the insulated pex pipe that will come from the boiler in the house is installed, I can pour the floor.

This past weekend, the building now has all the strapping done and I'm starting to install the soffit/facia and steel siding.

Why is it so slow?
Fixing small mistakes, weather, permits, installed an above ground pool, submitted plans for an addition on the house, tired, lack of $$$, etc..
But one day :beer:

Starting over... again. 30x40 shop build project = "Sutton Shop"

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