Need to get internet & phone to shop - 500+ feet away

Ratmonkey · Apr 7, 2014

So my shop is about 500-600 feet away from the house and I need to get the landline house phone and internet to the shop.

The landline is just a regular AT&T cheap phone line into the house. Need it in the shop because I don't get any cell signal in the shop at all.

The internet provider is Dish Network/Hughes Net Satellite Internet. Im way out in the woods in north florida and this is the only option available that I'm aware of. I have the 10Mbs down package. Regular internet stuff in the house, Wifi Router, Printer, etc... No real "networking" or anything.

The Dish/Hughes Net service is hardly ever actually 10Mbs down. Most of the time its functional though and gets the job done. Whatever system I end up going with, there can't be any loss of speed from what it is now because its already turd slow.

Ive been looking at fiber optic for the internet but its pretty confusing and don't know where to start. Also if phone AND internet can be run over the same fiber line?

Can regular phone line be run 500-600 feet?

Anyone have a diagram of a simple fiber optic run like I'm describing here? Or know of a "Kit" that has everything needed?

It would also be cool if there was a way to get my dish TV signal to the shop as well, but not sure if thats possible.

Whatever I do I plan to direct bury the cable/wire in the ground with a small trencher.

There is power at the house and shop but nothing in-between.

Anyone have any ideas?

Tbirdtc · Apr 7, 2014

i had a internet cable made by a computer guy friend he had the crimper to put the ends on phone / INTERNET cables have no length limit that i kno of .
i work in buildings wher they are a mile long thats where i got the wire
also these are low voltaGE u can bury them only a inch or so no worry about somone cutting it and getting hurt.

big.jim · Apr 7, 2014

internet cables do have a limit 305 m is the length of box they come in ,thats the reason you can run phone and internet down the same cat 5e cable , you need 1 pair for phone and 2 pair for 10/100 broadband if you want to go to gigabit transfer you need all 4 pair in the cable and then need to run a separate phone line. if youre buying a box it would do 2 runs anyway so that puts redundancy / upscaling already built in

jeffmoss26 · Apr 7, 2014

100 meters / 328 feet is the recognized standard here in the US for a horizontal link. That includes the patch cords on both ends. Will it work over 328 feet? Usually.

andy29847 · Apr 7, 2014

Telephone lines are buried 6" or more to keep them from being cut by someone doing ordinary yard work. There is not enough electricity in a phone line to hurt anyone.

Your land line can be extended to your shop. You need a wire that is made to be buried (usually jelly filled). You need lightning protection for the line.

The internet question is harder. The connection would have to be from the back of your modem to your computer in the shop. How far you can go depends on the transmission qualities of the wire and modem that you use. You can search google using "ethernet" and "distance" and get some ideas.

In my neighborhood, if I was looking at the same issue, I would first consider a wireless solution - something like and Iphone with a hotspot to a computer in your shop. 2nd option would be a separate landline and computer service connection. With both of these, if you have to be able to answer you home telephone number, you would also need to call forward that number to your cell phone or shop number.

Fiber optic cable is not that expensive. The equipment that goes on each end to change the signals from electric to light, and then back to electric, may be expensive and hard to find.

James_B · Apr 7, 2014

You could probably do that 500 feet with a decent pair of G mode WiFi access points with some external antennas. I've had no problems connecting over similar distances using a standard wifi router and a standard PC network card, both connected to a pair of home made cantennas.

A cantenna is simply a specially designed directional Wi-Fi antenna using a can to concentrate the Wi-Fi signal in a particular direction. Many hackers make them out of Pringles cans, but my calculations indicate that Pringles cans are a bit small in diameter. I used an 850ml juice can, and while the diameter was fine, the theory said that it was a little shorter than optimum. I considered soldering another open ended can to the end of the cantenna with the feed point if I had problems.

I used to teach microwave theory as part of my RADAR course, so I know this stuff and designed my cantenna from scratch. To make things easier, I created an excel spreadsheet for doing the antenna length and placement calculations based on the G mode Wi-Fi channel, and the can diameter.

A few friends have managed nearly 1 km line of sight with a similar setup, and 3 km/2 mile connections are not unheard of. Just be aware, that the level of gain created using a cantenna when connected to a standard router with low-loss cable will most likely exceed the legal US power limit for unlicensed 2.4GB operation.

An alternate method would be to piggyback your network signal onto you power feed.

If your shop is fed from your house switchboard, you may get internet connectivity using a power line network interface system. Something like these may do the trick.

jeff000 · Apr 7, 2014

James_B said:
You could probably do that 500 feet with a decent pair of G mode WiFi access points with some external antennas. I've had no problems connecting over similar distances using a standard wifi router and a standard PC network card, both connected to a pair of home made cantennas.

A cantenna is simply a specially designed directional Wi-Fi antenna using a can to concentrate the Wi-Fi signal in a particular direction. Many hackers make them out of Pringles cans, but my calculations indicate that Pringles cans are a bit small in diameter. I used an 850ml juice can, and while the diameter was fine, the theory said that it was a little shorter than optimum. I considered soldering another open ended can to the end of the cantenna with the feed point if I had problems.

I used to teach microwave theory as part of my RADAR course, so I know this stuff and designed my cantenna from scratch. To make things easier, I created an excel spreadsheet for doing the antenna length and placement calculations based on the G mode Wi-Fi channel, and the can diameter.

A few friends have managed nearly 1 km line of sight with a similar setup, and 3 km/2 mile connections are not unheard of. Just be aware, that the level of gain created using a cantenna when connected to a standard router with low-loss cable will most likely exceed the legal US power limit for unlicensed 2.4GB operation.

An alternate method would be to piggyback your network signal onto you power feed.

If your shop is fed from your house switchboard, you may get internet connectivity using a power line network interface system. Something like these may do the trick.

The Cantenna will be the best choice. I wouldn't worry about power limit and unlicenced, the odds of it doing anything out there are basically zero if he is out in the boonies like he says.

I use an "illegal" booster for my cell service in my work truck, only use it when way out there, it'll crash anyone elses booster in a 10 meter radius when using it.

volleyball · Apr 7, 2014

What I would do is run 2 cat cables for internet, a coax to tv and a twisted pair/cat cable for phone. Put them in conduit. Get one cable and string it across the lawn to see if it works for you. The directional antenna will work but you will need 2 or more depending on how many devices.
There are extender devices if you don't get the range.

MonoxieChild · Apr 7, 2014

James_B said:
If your shop is fed from your house switchboard, you may get internet connectivity using a power line network interface system. Something like these may do the trick.

Never seen one of these before. I think i might give these a try in my garage and see if it will work.

mx500 · Apr 7, 2014

Coax can travel farther, but you will need some media converters, same as if you installed fiber. http://www.dual-comm.com/ethernet-over-coax-adapter.htm

GS-Louie · Apr 8, 2014

MonoxieChild said:
Never seen one of these before. I think i might give these a try in my garage and see if it will work.

It might be a good idea to contact the manufacturer to see if they cab handle the distance. They are intended to extend through a house, 500' is a long way.

Lou

Ratmonkey · Apr 9, 2014

Anyone ever try one of these?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PFQX7K/?tag=atomicindus08-20

These things look pretty versatile. Probably like the "cantenna" above...

Ratmonkey · Apr 9, 2014

mx500 said:
Coax can travel farther, but you will need some media converters, same as if you installed fiber. http://www.dual-comm.com/ethernet-over-coax-adapter.htm

This looks like a decent option. Thanks for the link, I will read up on this.

Ratmonkey · Apr 9, 2014

These look interesting... Kinda spendy, but considering burying all that cable and buying fiber and all that + my time, might not be a bad option.

Anyone have any experience with this?

http://www.gnswireless.com/GNS1161N_5.8GHz_802.11N_MIMO_Wireless_Ethernet_Bridge.htm

http://www.gnswireless.com/GNS1804.htm

Skeetobite · Apr 9, 2014

Maybe this will help:

Internet and HDTV to detached garage

With this set-up, you will get most, if not all of your average DL speeds compared to wireless in the house.

SARG · Apr 9, 2014

I've used the Uniden cordless phone sets that come with the base and two satellite phones.

My layout is the house ...thirty feet away south is the garage and 300 feet away from that (south) is the barns. I put the base unit in the garage and the satellites in the house and barn. Works fine.

dogdog · Apr 9, 2014

if you already have good electricity to your shop and shares the same meter from your house. Why not just use thise powerline ethernet adapters.... just find the one you like , called up the manufacture and confirm with them if the distances are ok. They do have distance limits.

Something like this as an example, Power Line Ethernet adapter

NVM--> 100 Meters so you have ot use repeater/and or a switch in between..... if you are using CAT5E / CAT6

Just never trusted wireless to be stable. but I think it will be ok if you lived in the boondocks. I couldn't even get a stable signal from first floor to second floor of my house in the City.

volleyball · Apr 10, 2014

Ratmonkey said:
These look interesting... Kinda spendy, but considering burying all that cable and buying fiber and all that + my time, might not be a bad option.

Anyone have any experience with this?

http://www.gnswireless.com/GNS1161N_5.8GHz_802.11N_MIMO_Wireless_Ethernet_Bridge.htm

http://www.gnswireless.com/GNS1804.htm

You want to send more than ethernet so do you buy several "adapters". If web is all you want then its worth considering.
If you are rural and burying then you won't have much interference from the outside world as long as the cables are not near your power line. So you will get more distance.
Do the troubleshooting and string a cable above ground and try it out. If it doesn't work, you will have to invest in a conversion solution.
Anything else and you are just pulling yours and ours wangs.

kluckfab · Apr 10, 2014

First of all conduit!

Second 10 years of it work, I am sure I can help

Phone should work using cat5 or cat 3, internet is different. You can purchase 6 strand fiber cable that has ends attach and a pull loop for pulling. Something like that will be around 500 give or take but it not going to kill ur speed or deal with drops

If u want some contact on the fiber let me know.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

volleyball said:
You want to send more than ethernet so do you buy several "adapters". If web is all you want then its worth considering.
If you are rural and burying then you won't have much interference from the outside world as long as the cables are not near your power line. So you will get more distance.
Do the troubleshooting and string a cable above ground and try it out. If it doesn't work, you will have to invest in a conversion solution.
Anything else and you are just pulling yours and ours wangs.

Not even sure what you are trying to say here but I aint pulling nobodies "wang"

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Skeetobite said:
Maybe this will help:

Internet and HDTV to detached garage

With this set-up, you will get most, if not all of your average DL speeds compared to wireless in the house.

Excellent Post! Thanks! Ill be asking some questions in your thread shortly.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

SARG said:
I've used the Uniden cordless phone sets that come with the base and two satellite phones.

My layout is the house ...thirty feet away south is the garage and 300 feet away from that (south) is the barns. I put the base unit in the garage and the satellites in the house and barn. Works fine.

Ive got one of those sets I forget the manufacturer. Bought it at walmart and it had the base phone and 2 remote phones. Was pretty expensive I remember that.

I will not work IN my shop at all. If I stand outside the shop it will work sometimes and sometimes it will drop calls / heavy static.

Not really a dependable option right now.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

dogdog said:
if you already have good electricity to your shop and shares the same meter from your house. Why not just use thise powerline ethernet adapters.... just find the one you like , called up the manufacture and confirm with them if the distances are ok. They do have distance limits.

Something like this as an example, Power Line Ethernet adapter

NVM--> 100 Meters so you have ot use repeater/and or a switch in between..... if you are using CAT5E / CAT6

Just never trusted wireless to be stable. but I think it will be ok if you lived in the boondocks. I couldn't even get a stable signal from first floor to second floor of my house in the City.

My shop has its own meter and 200 amp service from the power company. I have 2 separate bills. The shop has its own address..

I know wireless works and is "moderately" stable as I have a house in the boonies of Thailand also, and there I have "WiNet" internet. Same thing, its line of sight wireless broadband. **** works quite well. The 10mb connection I have there is WAY better than the 10mb satellite connection I have from HughesNet in Florida.

mrjaw14 · Apr 10, 2014

Like others have said, phone you'll be ok if you run a cat5e cable. Internet won't do well at 500'. about 300ft is the industry max when you take patch cables into account for copper ethernet. Your choices are WiFi, or fiber. personally I wouldn't run just one strand of fiber, I'd do a multi strand as has already been suguested. You'll definately want conduit sized correctly, and might need to go bigger if you buy fiber with the ends already on it. then you have to buy either a fiber to ethernet converter, or buy switches with fiber modules in them. You can get old switches cheap on ebay with fiber modules, but you'd have to know how to configure them. The switches are factory defaulted usually, so they'll work as a basic l2 switch out of the box, but the fiber module would need to be configured. there's people on the ole interwebs who can easily tell you how to configure this.

For simplicity I'd go wireless though. That's also going to be cheaper than fiber, but your speeds will be a little slower. Personally I wouldn't install anything lower than 802.11N, G is obsolete. AC is going to replace N in a year or so, so G is actually 2 revisions old at this point. what you want to do is easily accomplished with some outdoor directional antannas, or a cantanna if you can protect it sufficiently.

ShawnJ · Apr 10, 2014

I have used a phone by EnGenius called the Durafon 1X in one of our garages. The garage is 40X60 pole built with steel siding. The base station is inside the garage and we can still use the handset in the outbuildings and surrounding areas almost up to 1km away! Seriously... It was an expensive phone but it does work. As for internet, I've used wireless bridges with good results. Again, EnGenius makes some good outdoor bridges for relatively low cost.

volleyball · Apr 10, 2014

mrjaw14 said:
Like others have said, phone you'll be ok if you run a cat5e cable. Internet won't do well at 500'. about 300ft is the industry max when you take patch cables into account for copper ethernet. Your choices are WiFi, or fiber. personally I wouldn't run just one strand of fiber, I'd do a multi strand as has already been suguested. You'll definately want conduit sized correctly, and might need to go bigger if you buy fiber with the ends already on it. then you have to buy either a fiber to ethernet converter, or buy switches with fiber modules in them. You can get old switches cheap on ebay with fiber modules, but you'd have to know how to configure them. The switches are factory defaulted usually, so they'll work as a basic l2 switch out of the box, but the fiber module would need to be configured. there's people on the ole interwebs who can easily tell you how to configure this.

For simplicity I'd go wireless though. That's also going to be cheaper than fiber, but your speeds will be a little slower. Personally I wouldn't install anything lower than 802.11N, G is obsolete. AC is going to replace N in a year or so, so G is actually 2 revisions old at this point. what you want to do is easily accomplished with some outdoor directional antannas, or a cantanna if you can protect it sufficiently.

non cat wire is fine for phone, cat 5 will most likely be fine for internet. Industry standard is rating for use where there may be hundreds of cables bundled. You have 2 or 3 and there is no interference.
I would suggest N or AC for wireless not because g is obsolete, because it is not.
But N has further range and more external antenna options which is more important than any other wireless feautre

dogdog · Apr 10, 2014

If you are considering cable solution, Ethernet cat cable is the way to go. you can always test it before burying it. if distances happens to be too long, then put a 5 ft pole above ground at midpoint or so, where it fits between, to house a repeater and goes back down to your barn/garage. best thing about this if you put a Power over Ethernet and a wireless access point, you have wifi as well in your property. and only run 1 cable needed. Cost is about the same.

If you are strongly considering wireless solution why don't you try to give these guys are call they are professional wifi / wireless solution guys from your state and been in business for a long time.
http://www.fab-corp.com/

Falcon67 · Apr 10, 2014

We use these at work for Line Of Sight across nearly a mile:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EHSV4W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Work like hoses. No tweaking required, can't remember the last time I logged into one here to check it. We send VoIP (phone) VLAN, video, etc traffic across the links. These are better used as bridges, not access points.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Just to give you guys an idea of the kind of distance I'm looking at, I have attached a pic. Its pretty far. Im offshore now and don't have any better pictures, but my shop is behind me on the right side of the driveway.

Im thinking the wireless thing will be the best bet for now. But I'm also thinking about security cameras at the entrance to the property and around the shop as well, so... Maybe fiber would be a better bet.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Falcon67 said:
We use these at work for Line Of Sight across nearly a mile:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EHSV4W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Work like hoses. No tweaking required, can't remember the last time I logged into one here to check it. We send VoIP (phone) VLAN, video, etc traffic across the links. These are better used as bridges, not access points.

Is there a way that I can use these to get the AT&T landline at the shop? Along with 4 security camera feeds sent back to the house and my 10mb internet connection to the shop?

Looks like I am going to have to dedicate some time to reading up on this subject... **** is more complicated than I originally thought.

compaddict · Apr 10, 2014

Nanobeams at 99.00 per side should give you the headroom you are looking for. GbE on both ends. Amazon.

ishiboo · Apr 10, 2014

An interesting problem. I would run some cheap buried phone cable the 500', use Ubiquiti Nano as compaddict said for the Internet/network connection, and mount a new dish on the shop. You simply pay for the receiver on your home connection as you would if it were in your house... they don't have any idea it's off a different dish. Just be sure to get the correct dish. The receiver will have a system built in for you to use to point the dish. You'll need to figure out if you can get line of sight.

There is no inexpensive single solution for what you want to do.

volleyball · Apr 10, 2014

ishiboo said:
There is no inexpensive single solution for what you want to do.

putting copper in the ground as a group is as inexpensive as you are going to get.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Literally everything I am reading online says that this distance is too far for Internet. Now I know that this can probably be stretched, but almost double the distance? 500+ feet? Hell it might be 600 feet with the way that I would actually have to bury the cable.

You really think that this would work?

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Falcon67 said:
We use these at work for Line Of Sight across nearly a mile:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EHSV4W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Work like hoses. No tweaking required, can't remember the last time I logged into one here to check it. We send VoIP (phone) VLAN, video, etc traffic across the links. These are better used as bridges, not access points.

These look excellent and great reviews too.

Can these be configured with a mac? Cant find anything on that.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

Falcon67 said:
We use these at work for Line Of Sight across nearly a mile:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EHSV4W/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Work like hoses. No tweaking required, can't remember the last time I logged into one here to check it. We send VoIP (phone) VLAN, video, etc traffic across the links. These are better used as bridges, not access points.

Also, you say that they work better as bridges, not AP's, then I would need routers on each side? And since this is a 5Ghz I would need "Dual Band" routers that cover 2.4 Ghz and 5Ghz? Or is it just "Bridging" in 5Ghz and by the time it gets to the router on the client side it does not matter?

volleyball · Apr 10, 2014

I would bet that you will be fine. I would use a quality wire. The hardest part of testing this will be rolling back the wire so that you can do the trenching.

MFortie · Apr 10, 2014

Not all the info offered above is correct, so be careful.

First consideration: Budget

If you aren't too concerned about cost, put in a 6-strand gel filled fiber cable in conduit with the requisite switches at both ends. Probably the most 'future-proof' solution you'll find.

Second choice would be line of sight wifi antennas for your Internet connectivity.

I wouldn't bother running CATx cable that distance for ethernet -- it might work, most likely won't, but the future will outrun it quickly. I can quote you lots of standards, etc. for distance limitations (I design this stuff for a living), but the basic 90 meter limitation for a permanent link is really all you need to know (channel link is 100 meters; permanent link takes the patch cords out of the equation.)

Phone isn't an issue at that distance.

Coax could be -- depending on the signal output from your splitter, you may need better than RG-6 cable and/or amplification to get a decent signal at your shop.

Hope this helps.

Ratmonkey · Apr 10, 2014

MFortie said:
Not all the info offered above is correct, so be careful.

First consideration: Budget

If you aren't too concerned about cost, put in a 6-strand gel filled fiber cable in conduit with the requisite switches at both ends. Probably the most 'future-proof' solution you'll find.

Second choice would be line of sight wifi antennas for your Internet connectivity.

I wouldn't bother running CATx cable that distance for ethernet -- it might work, most likely won't, but the future will outrun it quickly. I can quote you lots of standards, etc. for distance limitations (I design this stuff for a living), but the basic 90 meter limitation for a permanent link is really all you need to know (channel link is 100 meters; permanent link takes the patch cords out of the equation.)

Phone isn't an issue at that distance.

Coax could be -- depending on the signal output from your splitter, you may need better than RG-6 cable and/or amplification to get a decent signal at your shop.

Hope this helps.

Yeah Im leaning towards the line of sight deal. I know it will work and at great distance too.

I will probably just bury a phone line to the shop and use the wifi antenna. I just need to figure out how it works lol.

I also need to figure out how security cameras work over a network as well. That would help me figure how how much space I need in the system.

This stuff gets complicated fast!

whatuusay1 · Apr 10, 2014

volleyball said:
I would bet that you will be fine. I would use a quality wire. The hardest part of testing this will be rolling back the wire so that you can do the trenching.

Cat5/6 will absolutely not work for traditional data at those distances. The distance for Ethernet over UTP cabling is more or less fixed - this is not due to the quality of cable, this is due to the timing mechanism used in the ethernet standard. You may be able to fudge it a bit but nowhere near 5-600ft. If you need that distance and want wired relability you need to use fiber or an alternative data mechanism such as long range ethernet (LRE) or DSL adapters (ethernet more or less over 2 twisted pair), you could also use MoCA over RG6 coax. You could also use the wireless bridge option sugested - this wont give you traditional analog phones though. You could pull a Cat6 cable in and use it for analog phones though if you want. You could could use a VoIP adapter over whatever data connection you choose as well - to get analog phones.

I'm a network engineer and deal with these solutions daily. I'd be happy to assist more if you have questions - feel free to PM me.

- Andrew

Need to get internet & phone to shop - 500+ feet away

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