Fire Extinguisher Info

I've been looking through several threads recently about extinguishers and thought I'd shed some light on the topic. I'm a professional firefighter in Little Rock, Arkansas and on my days off I work for a fire extinguisher service company where I am a licensed technician. This will be long, but I will try to give you all as much knowledge as I can in a brief manner.

First thing on extinguishers - you need them. They can seem expensive, but in the grand scheme of things they are cheap.

Secondly, if you do ever find yourself in need of one, you will want a quality extinguisher. I see a lot of guys on here buying Kidde, First Alert, etc. from Home Depot, Walmart and other big box retailers. These are junk, to be frank. Look at the extinguishers the stores have hanging on their walls next time you shop and you will see they don't have Kiddes or whatever else they stock on their shelves. They buy quality extinguishers. Don't even bother with Cold Fire or other aerosol products that claim to be extinguishers.

There are a lot of brands that make extinguishers, so here is a breakdown of brands to get and which ones to avoid:

Top of the line: Amerex, Ansul
Middle of the road: Badger, General
Waste of money: Kidde, First Alert, Buckeye, Pem All

Many of the last category leak within a year of their manufacture, even the "top of the line" metal head Kiddes. Gauges, O-rings and even the welds on the cylinders are bad from the factory and they are worthless in no time. We have a junk pile of them at our shop where owners got fed up with their brand new extinguishers they bought from HD or Lowe's that are leaked down before they make it to a year old. They are good for scrap and that's about it.

So what is a quality extinguisher that is affordable? Try to find an older extinguisher from the 1970s or early 1980s from your local fire extinguisher company. According to the law, all dry chemical extinguishers in commercial use made before 1984 have to be taken out of service no later than Jan. 1, 2015. We get dozens of these in the shop every day from places who are forced to purchase new extinguishers to comply with this. They cannot be used by businesses any longer, but they are exempt from this if you have them for personal use.

Older extinguishers are usually of a much higher quality than new extinguishers. Brass and aluminum heads and steel or aluminum handles are the norm, not cheap plastic like you will find on many newer extinguishers. Parts are still readily available for older Amerex, Ansul, and some other brands of extinguishers from the 1970s. These extinguishers do not have to be hydrotested if they are for personal use, but you should still have them taken in every 6 years to be serviced, according to NFPA 10. I personally have several Amerex, Ansul and even some American LaFrance (rebadged Badger) extinguishers that are "red tags".

We do not resell these "red tagged" extinguishers at the company I work for, since we can reuse the powder and the cylinders are gathered for scrap, but we are encouraged to take home as many as we need. Your local company may sell them to you for cheap (under $20) if you ask for one, or they may even just give you one.

If you can't get your hands on a pre 1984 extinguisher, I would still suggest contacting an extinguisher company and asking if they sell refurbished extinguishers. These are 1984 and newer extinguishers that are used and can still be hydrotested and used in commercial settings. They are used but have been serviced and should give you years of use with little to no issue if you buy a quality extinguisher. A used Amerex 5lb. extinguisher is often cheaper than a new Kidde will be, and you will be getting a much better extinguisher.

One last thing - don't try to recharge extinguishers at home. It requires specialized equipment in most cases and is dangerous and extremely messy if you don't know what you are doing. Plus, you probably will have a leaked down extinguisher before long if you attempt to do it on your own. The folks like me who rebuild them for a living have to be licensed to work on these things for a reason.

Sorry for the length of the post, just trying to pass along some friendly information to everybody. If you have any questions about extinguishers or fire safety in general for your shop or garage, please ask and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

Stay safe out there.

Ayuh,.... Great post,... Lota good info,....

What psi is a freshly charged dry chemical unit,..??

I've got quite a collection of ole pressurized water types,...
Made a decent chemical sprayer outa 1 of 'em,...

great post, I have a "red tagged" one in the garage and when we remove more for the reason you listed I'll bring more home.

Thanks for the info.

I'm going to have to do some googling to see if I can find a company near me that might be willing to sell me a few older units.

Would it be worth calling one of the firestations, or just search for one of the companies that services the equipment?

I have a mix and 6 of the Kidde units from HD. Had them for three years now. FWIW, none have leaked or had any noticeable problem. I filp them a few times every so often. We have 5lb "professional grade" units (forget the name) in both race cars (stupid IHRA door car rule requirement) and in the race trailer because those are the only kind you can get with real - metal - retaining brackets.

Safety first

Bondo said:

Ayuh,.... Great post,... Lota good info,....

What psi is a freshly charged dry chemical unit,..??

I've got quite a collection of ole pressurized water types,...
Made a decent chemical sprayer outa 1 of 'em,...

Click to expand...

Typically 195 psi, but some small (2.5lb. usually) extinguishers are only 100 psi.

Best combo for a garage (in my opinion)

20# CO2-no mess and enough flooding capacity for typical extinguishment

20# ABC cartridge operated dry chemical-low chance of pressure leak, maximum use of available dry chemical

Both can be found on the used market, as stated above, look for Ansul.

sneasle said:

Thanks for the info.

I'm going to have to do some googling to see if I can find a company near me that might be willing to sell me a few older units.

Would it be worth calling one of the firestations, or just search for one of the companies that services the equipment?

Click to expand...

Depends on the department, but most do not service extinguishers. On my department, we carry ABC, CO2 and water cans on our apparatus, but they are seldom used and knowledge of them is minimal because of that.

In my experience, you'd be better off going straight to an extinguisher company, since they work with them on a daily basis.

Falcon67 said:

I have a mix and 6 of the Kidde units from HD. Had them for three years now. FWIW, none have leaked or had any noticeable problem. I filp them a few times every so often. We have 5lb "professional grade" units (forget the name) in both race cars (stupid IHRA door car rule requirement) and in the race trailer because those are the only kind you can get with real - metal - retaining brackets.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately I hear this a lot from people who own Kiddes, thinking they are alright. I cannot tell you how many Kiddes come into our shop that appear to be in good working condition on the outside, only to find that the gauge is stuck in the green/charged zone of the gauge when it really has no pressure on it at all.

It is also common to hear some of the powder shift when you flip dry chem extinguishers, but when you take them apart you realize the majority of the powder has caked into a hard, nearly cement like state. Sometimes it will break apart when discharged and things are fine. Other times the air will discharge while the powder remains stuck in the cylinder or dip tube.

The dip tubes on most Kiddes, even the aluminum head versions, are plastic. The plastic becomes brittle pretty easily and if it cracks or breaks in the cylinder, your extinguisher just became useless.

With all the money and time you have invested in your car and trailer, my advice is to get rid of the Kiddes and get something better. Any extinguisher company should be able to get you a proper bracket, whether it be for hanging from a wall or mounting in a vehicle.

cjn1014 said:

Best combo for a garage (in my opinion)

20# CO2-no mess and enough flooding capacity for typical extinguishment

20# ABC cartridge operated dry chemical-low chance of pressure leak, maximum use of available dry chemical

Both can be found on the used market, as stated above, look for Ansul.

Click to expand...

We call the cartridge units "railroads" because that is who uses the majority of that type of extinguisher. They are heavy as hell, but they are great extinguishers. They are harder to find than standard dry chem extinguishers and can be more expensive to service, though.

I'd feel great about the safety of a shop using that combo of extinguishers.

Kiddie extinguishers is all I have in my garage and home. After reading this article I am concerned that they may not be reliable. Just to be sure, I will take the oldest one and use it next week. I can find an extinguisher company near me and inquire about used ones to replace the Kiddies.

Thanks "creep" for posting this information.

Creep-thanks for posting this. I hope the folks here caught what you said about picking up discounted units from local vendors.

Last year I bought 8 Amerex 20# ABC units for $10 each from a company who was replacing them in commercial buildings. To top off the deal they recharged them for me when I picked them up. I gave a few of them away for gifts to the in-laws and friends.

Uggg. Last year I bought several from our local fire department. Previously they sold amerex now they are selling buckeye. That's what I ended up with.

Thanks for the post. I need to find a place in Houston.

Buckeye is becoming popular because of their price, but they are just as bad, if not worse, than Kidde when it comes to leaking from the factory. Gauges are the first place we look for leaks on Buckeyes. The necks leak on them too, partly because the heads are over torqued from the factory, causing damage to the O-rings or even cracks in the neck or the head itself. The bottom of Buckeyes are welded in, and often not very well. I wouldn't be concerned with a cylinder failing and having a catastrophic blowout, but they do tend to leak from the welds.

Another word of advice - if you do have a discharged extinguisher, it needs to be serviced sooner rather than later. The longer you wait, the more likely the powder is to harden in the extinguisher. When moisture gets to the powder, it often gets so hard that the heads cannot be cleaned well enough to regain an adequate seal at the valve stem. The powder in dip tubes of discharged extinguishers often has to be hammered out with a long rod.

I bought a used Amerex 20lb high performance Purple K awhile ago. The gauge is still in the green, but getting close to the lower red zone. Should I get it recharged now and does it cost more to get Purple K serviced if it has not been discharged?

Related question: I have a really old probably 15lb Purple K Badger that came from an airport. The last service tag on it says 83-84. The gauge is in the middle of green. Can it be serviced or is it scrap?

Good post. I have several of the Amerex. I never thought they were expensive when I needed one (or more).
Last year my wife saved our barn with the mowers, chainsaws, ATV, fishing boat and a tractor inside because:
A. We had good extinguishers located in the right places
and
B. she knew what to do with them.
She was home alone and had the fire out before the FD got there (5 miles, under 10 minutes response time).

From what I've seen, most extinguisher companies will only service a unit that can be put back into commercial service, so they probably won't touch your old one.

As with all extinguishers with a gauge, you should look at the gauge on a regular basis, and give a few taps on the glass. I know exactly what you're talking about with the empty Kidde extinguishers with a gauge still in the green, but a good tap on the glass can often coax the gauge to read true.

I have a handful of Kidde extinguishers at home. A few lost pressure within the first two years, but I exchanged them at the store.

sammon287 said:

I bought a used Amerex 20lb high performance Purple K awhile ago. The gauge is still in the green, but getting close to the lower red zone. Should I get it recharged now and does it cost more to get Purple K serviced if it has not been discharged?

Related question: I have a really old probably 15lb Purple K Badger that came from an airport. The last service tag on it says 83-84. The gauge is in the middle of green. Can it be serviced or is it scrap?

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First, I just want to make sure you know that Purple K is a high performance BC extinguisher. I assume you know that, but just want to make sure you're not relying on it should you need it for a Class A fire.

As long as it is in the green, you are good. It may have leaked down slightly since it was last serviced, or the technician may have just pressurized it less than usual (I try to pressurize them to the high side of the green zone in case they do develop a small leak after leaving the shop).

Purple K should not cost any more to be serviced than an ABC, as long as it has not been discharged. The powder will be reused, so you are not costing the service company anything beyond their normal overhead, unless you need new parts like a valve stem, gauge, etc.

Your older Badger may or may not still have parts available for it, but the extinguisher company will know when they look at it. Even if they don't have parts, they can still try to service it using the existing parts. Sometimes a good cleaning and some Vaseline is all it takes to ensure a good seal.

I'll ask around work about the 1984 rule - we're bound to have plenty of ancient FEs around here. The cars and trailer have the good ones in them.

I'd use the car ones in the shop but IHRA requires door cars to carry a 5 lb extinguisher. They do not speficy the mounting or bracketing required. I hate it - if I DO have a wreck, the last thing I want is a 5lb dry chem hammer bullet around in the car. And when I stop, I'm getting OUT, not reaching around for the extinguisher. If it's on fire, I'm damn sure out. And if I can't get out, then likely I cant fight a fire either and certainly not under the hood or trunk area. The track fire support will be coming before I slide to a stop. I don't care much for NHRA but the last time we ran at an NHRA track, the tech guys made me take them out LOL. "Gladly"

Sorry - ranting

For those who are wanting to stick with their Kidde extinguishers, make sure you don't have a 1991-2000 10lb. version with a plastic head. The heads are known to fail and become a projectile, and can cause considerable damage when they do let go.

rlitman, it is definitely wise to look at the gauges once a month or so. If you do notice the gauge is bent or damaged, I would highly advise getting the extinguisher serviced and a new gauge installed. We get a lot of bent gauges in the shop that are stuck in the green because the metal spring is now wedged in place in its housing, despite all the pressure having leaked out when the housing was bent.

Five star thread rating achieved. Thanks for sharing your expertise creep.

This makes me feel better about the middle of the road General extinguishers in my shop. And makes me want to throw out the two cheap First Alert units that I have for back up.

GRX said:

Five star thread rating achieved. Thanks for sharing your expertise creep.

This makes me feel better about the middle of the road General extinguishers in my shop. And makes me want to throw out the two cheap First Alert units that I have for back up.

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Generals are very good extinguishers (quality heads along with a very thick walled cylinder), but they were bought out by Amerex in 2001 and they decided to stop making parts for them, so that's why I put them as middle of the road.

The 10lb. and 20lb. Generals have a very large valve stem with lots of rubber, so they can usually just be cleaned and given a light coat of Vaseline to make them hold a seal with the original parts. The smaller Generals have a valve stem that has a replaceable o-ring, but it is more likely to leak than the larger versions.

Usually the only issue we have with generals is the plastic dip tube that some of them have breaking due to age. That said, that is fairly rare, especially compared to other brands with plastic dip tubes.

So, because of this thread I went searching for older units on craigslist. Found this:

http://nwga.craigslist.org/for/4422741191.html

That might be a little much for a home shop...


edit: Do you have a certain size you would recommend for certain areas? I'm looking on amazon at the moment to get a feel for pricing, and I see units from 2.5lbs and up.

This seems to me to be a reasonable price, but I've go no clue if it really is or not:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F5CKJJU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

sneasle said:

So, because of this thread I went searching for older units on craigslist. Found this:

http://nwga.craigslist.org/for/4422741191.html

That might be a little much for a home shop...

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Haha, yeah, that is a bit overkill for a home shop. Wheel units or "wheelies" as we call them are a bear to service. Some of them can be discharged into the hoppers we use for ABS extinguishers, but a BC like that would have to be flipped upside down with a forklift and have the old powder removed and reloaded by hand. They come in sizes up to 350 lbs., so you can imagine how much work that takes.

Wheel units are common at large industrial places and airports. We have an airbase near us, and they are constantly sending us 150lb. Halon 1211 wheel units to service. Talk about some big money if they are discharged...

Oh boy. I can believe that.

You probably missed my edit, any comments on that?

It depends on the size of the space, but every 75 feet is the minimum by NFPA 10 standards. That said, my shop is 32x40 and I have 3 extinguishers in it. I have a 10lb. ABC hung on each end so I don't have to run the full length of the shop to grab one. I also have a 20lb. ABC on the floor near my entry door.

For a normal garage, a 5 or 10lb. unit should work fine. For a shop, I'd say a couple of 10 lb. ABCs for sure. A 2.5 gallon pressurized water ("can" as we call it on the fire department) is affordable and is a great addition for Class A fires without the mess of the dry chemical found in ABC extinguishers, and you can add a little dish soap to it to reduce the surface tension of the water, which in turn allows it to soak into wood better. If you can afford the upfront cost of a CO2, they are nice for BC fires with no mess and are cheap to have refilled.

I don't advise people to try to service their own extinguishers with one exception - 2.5 gallon pressurized water extinguishers. If you do get a "can", make sure to get one with a ****** on the head so you can refill and pressurize them yourself after they are used. The ****** will be on the side of the head opposite the gauge. Without this ******, you need an adapter to pressurize the can.

The price looks pretty good on that Amerex, but check locally and see what they are going for from your extinguisher company.

Are there still good Co2 units out there that don't break the bank ?

Thank you for posting this! I'm a little unclear on what to call and ask for though at my local fire extinguisher shop. I'd like to get something for the kitchen and garage, and certainly don't mind a used unit as long as its high quality. If I went in and explained this, how much cash should I have in my pocket? Thanks!

Creep, great post. I'm also a professional firefighter, and have learned more from your post than we typically train on. I have 2 extinguishers in my shop, and I like to roll old school:

Badger 13 said:

Are there still good Co2 units out there that don't break the bank ?

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CO2 cylinders don't have any lifetime retirement age like some do (SCBA bottles for firefighting is one example that does), so usually they get hung onto for a long time. We get 100+ year old CO2 cylinders in on a weekly basis. They have to be hydrotested every 5 years, but other than that you can keep them forever as long as the parts can be replaced or reused.

I know we sell used ones that are given or sold to us. Your local extinguisher company may do the same.

mikeatrpi said:

Thank you for posting this! I'm a little unclear on what to call and ask for though at my local fire extinguisher shop. I'd like to get something for the kitchen and garage, and certainly don't mind a used unit as long as its high quality. If I went in and explained this, how much cash should I have in my pocket? Thanks!

Click to expand...

For your kitchen I would recommend a 5lb. ABC under the sink, and a 10lb. ABC mounted on a wall for the garage. You could get a couple quality used 1984 or newer ABCs of this size for around $75 at our place, last time I checked prices.

Some people will argue about using ABC extinguishers in kitchens because of the mess they make, but for home use it is the best value in my opinion, since a fire in your kitchen is going to make a mess, regardless of what is used to put it out. CO2 would be an option as well, if you can afford it.

Class K is a liquid chemical extinguisher found in commercial kitchens that allows easier cleanup and, more importantly for them, being able to reopen their doors for business quickly. However, these are expensive extinguishers and the chemical seems to be corrosive (we get a lot of these that require a new $$$ brass head within 5 years of manufacture because the chemical eats it up). I would not recommend one of these for home use.

ladderwell said:

Creep, great post. I'm also a professional firefighter, and have learned more from your post than we typically train on. I have 2 extinguishers in my shop, and I like to roll old school:

Click to expand...

Hey brother, glad to see some other firefighters on here. I love your "railroad" cartridge unit. They are great extinguishers.

Are you using the smaller carbon tetrachloride unit as an extinguisher or decoration? They have been banned since the 1950s due to the toxicity of the extinguishing agent.

I bought a Kidde at an estate sale yesteray for $1, all plastic. Today, I started a fire in our burn barrel outside (tipped it on its' side), and got a good fire burning. I showed my wife how to use the extinguisher, and let her put out the fire. We have a small wood stove in the basement, so I thought it would help if she knew what to do in case she had to put it out. We have other better ones around the house/garage/shop.

A few years back, I had a CO2 extinguisher that was old, and the guy that comes around to our factory said he couldn't refill it because it was too old. I pitched it. When we use our extinguishers at home, the company I work for will have it refilled for free. We got bought out last year, so I'll have to check to see if that is still in effect.

I have a Pyrene 7lb halon(1976) that has never had a HST. It's in good shape visually mounted on a wall braket. I beleive they are out of production, is it still ok to use it?

Wonder full post, thank you.

code 8 said:

I have a Pyrene 7lb halon(1976) that has never had a HST. It's in good shape visually mounted on a wall braket. I beleive they are out of production, is it still ok to use it?

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It may be, but I would never advise anybody to trust a nearly 40 year old extinguisher that hasn't been serviced at some point in its life.

If you want a Halon extinguisher, my advice is to take yours to an extinguisher company and ask them to sell you a newer one. If your current extinguisher is still charged, they can recover the Halon 1211 inside and you can recoup some of the price of the newer extinguisher that way.

ford33 said:

Kiddie extinguishers is all I have in my garage and home. After reading this article I am concerned that they may not be reliable. Just to be sure, I will take the oldest one and use it next week. I can find an extinguisher company near me and inquire about used ones to replace the Kiddies.

Thanks "creep" for posting this information.

Click to expand...

****. Im in the same exact boat. And I just did test one of my chem ones. First burst, my tree is yellow and the extinguisher is dead. Wtf. The second in my kitchen cupboard is also in the red, never used. Damnit.

ducksface said:

I'm a bit unsure of this post.
Is Kiddie and the others mentioned UL listed?
If they are, can we negate UL as a legit testing agency if KIDDIE can't perform?
We had a flood at our house. State Farm sued the company that made the water pressure regulator.
Would Kiddie survive such a thing if you reached for it, it was within date specs...and failed?

Opinion is fine, opinion from a pro is better.

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I would expect them to be UL listed, but my intent is not to discount UL as a legitimate agency (especially given their commitment to the fire service). My intent is to inform posters on this board of what I do know and what I have experienced in my frequent occupational encounters with fire extinguishers.

I'm not sure if you are asking me whether I think a Kidde extinguisher will survive a flood or perform in case of a fire, but either way my answer is the same. I do not work for UL, but I am licensed to service extinguishers, I have serviced thousands of them, and I am a 3rd generation professional firefighter. I do not know everything about extinguishers by any means, but compared to most civilians and even a lot of my colleagues in the fire service, I know a good bit about extinguishers.

My knowledge of extinguishers and experience with them tells me that there are obvious differences in quality from one brand to the next. While a Kidde, First Alert, FyrFyter, etc. extinguisher may go its entire life with no problems, I have seen enough of them to know I will never trust my family's or friends' safety to one of their extinguishers. Their extinguishers look like they were manufactured with the intent of saving costs, not lives.

When it comes to fire safety products, my opinion is that the little extra it costs for quality is far less expensive than the loss of personal property or life.

God has graced me with a heart for serving others and that was my goal when I first posted this thread. My hope in all this is to let people know there are more brands and far better brands out there than the stuff on the shelves at most retailers. If you decide to buy one, I will be glad that you are at least making the effort to have an extinguisher when you may not have had one before. If you decide that spending a little more for a product that may save your life one day is worth it, I will be even more glad.

Please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.