Bandsaw restore, big, old & heavy

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

Hi, This is my 1st thread and thought there may be some knowledgeable persons out there who may be able to offer advice and tips on getting this old bandsaw up and running.
I'm in Australia Queensland, but thought that there may be a larger knowledge base on big old bandsaws in the USA.
I first saw it about a year ago, sitting out in the weather in the corner of a h/ware & landscaping yard. I enquired about it and was told it was meant to be sold for a customer, but they got sick of it taking up space under cover and stuck it out in the yard. I offered to buy it, they called the owner and he wanted about $1200 for it, I offered $150 so no deal.
A few weeks ago I received a cheque in the mail for some inheritance money from my Grandparents. Rather then spent it all on bills I decided to at least use some of the money to buy something that would always remind me of them.
I have many fond memories of tinkering in my grandfathers little old shed so I thought another offer on the bandsaw was in order.
A year later and the vines had grown over the whole thing, but it was still there. When I enquired about the saw again the owner happened to turn up. After some serious bartering I struck a deal for $400. A lot of money for a rusty old bandsaw without a motor, but I got it anyway.
I spent a little time each night over a week soaking every nut and bolt with penetrating spray and now have everything freed up.

Details:
Total height- 2m
Weight approx- 500kg
Throat- 655mm (25.8")
Wheel- 707mm (27.8")
Resaw height- 450mm (17.7")
Blade length 4710mm (185.4")

Previous owner claims he burnt out some 2hp motors on it and it needs bigger.
Looking at the blade in the saw, I wonder what he was cutting and if this contributed to the burn out. Being in Aus, our hardwoods are ****** hard and if that was what he was re-sawing then I would not be surprised if a motor burns out.
I am thinking of a 3hp 240v 3 phase with a vfd or a 3hp single 240v with a couple of pulley options to change the speed.
I don't know what rpm this size saw would run at.
I plan to use it for mostly odds&ends cuts, some rough sawing as big as it can take and some ally and metal cutting.
I will get the relevant blades to suit.
I need advice on whether I will have torque issues running with the VFD and any other issues I may face.
The 3hp 240v single phase motor option is the cheapest, but no speed control.
Have given some thought to a brake as well considering the mass in the lower flywheel and how long it would take to stop. That may be something for down the track.
Thanks in advance for any help, opinions or advice.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab58/sideroad/BANDSAW/P1060232.jpg

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

Shoottx · Jun 1, 2014

I can't help a lot on this topic but I can point you to a place for lots of help. One of the best sources I have found, and the place is very deep in expertise on VFD's and restoring old equipment is OWWM.org http://owwm.org The companion site Vintage Machinery http://www.vintagemachinery.org has a wiki with tons of reference material. Those two sites will keep you busy for a long time. Nothing wrong here just more focus specifically on restoring old wood working machinery there.

I found it during an adventure restoring a much smaller (12') Craftsman bandsaw built in 1949.

Enjoy

rsanter · Jun 1, 2014

For one, that is a re-sawing bandsaw
Big money to those that need one but otherwise not the most useful thing to most people.

For basic stuff I think the 3 hp 3ph motor will do well for you and yes the VFD will be needed to make it really useful
If you plan to actually do much re sawing then you may need bigger for the motor as resawing takes lots of power

Bob

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

Thanks Shoottx, will have a look

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

rsanter said:
For one, that is a re-sawing bandsaw
Big money to those that need one but otherwise not the most useful thing to most people.

For basic stuff I think the 3 hp 3ph motor will do well for you and yes the VFD will be needed to make it really useful
If you plan to actually do much re sawing then you may need bigger for the motor as resawing takes lots of power

Bob

Thanks Bob, when you say not too useful for most people, is that because it is so big and heavy? What limitations will I find compared to a non-re-sawing bandsaw? I don't plan on much re-sawing, but who knows. I have never had the option before and not too sure what the future holds.

Steve from Socal · Jun 1, 2014

The only difference I see with your saw in comparing it to other vertical band saws is, the table is biased to accommodate the resaw fence. Most vertical band saws have the table centered in relationship to the blade. Not a big deal IMHO.

As to what size motor to use, I would really consider a 5 HP motor if you plan on doing any serious resawing. A variable speed drive would work to speed up the saw, to slow it down for metal gearing is the choice. A 3 HP motor is marginal for a saw that size.

That is a nice sturdy band saw, once you use something like this you will be spoiled!

Steve

930dreamer · Jun 1, 2014

That's a serious band saw, nice find.

Packard V8 · Jun 1, 2014

What a monster! I've dreamed of finding one like that for $400, but it's never been close to happening.

The good thing is 5hp and higher 3-phase motors are thick on the ground here in the US. If it is the same in OZ, get the biggest one you can find; 5hp at least and 7.5hp is better. A VFD will cost less than a similar HP single phase motor.

The bad news is when you get it up and running, all manner of "friends" with chunks of hardwood will come to your shop. Far too many urban trees have metal in them; nails, spikes, all-thread, fencing, et al. When you begin resawing, only do it for yourself and those who will make a cash deposit of the cost of a new saw blade. Sooner or later, you'll hear the skreeek!, see the sparks and the teeth will be gone off your blade.

Congrats on a great find and have fun.

jack vines

nine4gmc · Jun 1, 2014

Great saw, in for more pics!

Outlawmws · Jun 1, 2014

I think the saw is perfectly usable for other purposes than re-sawing, However, you will want a narrower blade as the wide re-saw blades are intended to cut straight only.

One issue may be the guides and wheels may not like having the teeth of the narrow blade where it has to ride...

GREAT find!

rsanter · Jun 1, 2014

sideroad said:
Thanks Bob, when you say not too useful for most people, is that because it is so big and heavy? What limitations will I find compared to a non-re-sawing bandsaw? I don't plan on much re-sawing, but who knows. I have never had the option before and not too sure what the future holds.

Most people do not do any resawing. A friend has one as he makes custom furnature using Koa in Hawaii. That big deep blade you have there is specific to resawing.
I suspect you will need to modify or reconfigure or even replace the blade guides so you can use regular type blades. Also you need to look at the crown on the wheels as that may be different due to blade size.
The big and heavy part is the good part of the deal you got.
If that was mine I think I would install a jack shaft setup that allowed the use of step pullies so I can change speed ranges easily and then tune in the speed with the VFD. This will be good if you are cutting a lot of metal on slow speed so you don't overheat the motor from lack or cooling ( due to lack of RPMs)

Bob

scw1991 · Jun 1, 2014

Just large enough for slicing up whale carcasses

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

Packard V8 said:
What a monster! I've dreamed of finding one like that for $400, but it's never been close to happening.

The good thing is 5hp and higher 3-phase motors are thick on the ground here in the US. If it is the same in OZ, get the biggest one you can find; 5hp at least and 7.5hp is better. A VFD will cost less than a similar HP single phase motor.

The bad news is when you get it up and running, all manner of "friends" with chunks of hardwood will come to your shop. Far too many urban trees have metal in them; nails, spikes, all-thread, fencing, et al. When you begin resawing, only do it for yourself and those who will make a cash deposit of the cost of a new saw blade. Sooner or later, you'll hear the skreeek!, see the sparks and the teeth will be gone off your blade.

Congrats on a great find and have fun.

jack vines

So far I don't think there are heaps of 5-7.5 hp motors around cheap, but if thats what I need I will hunt a deal down.
I have to look into how many amps a 5hp or larger will pull. I have 15amp 240v outlets, but if I need more I will have to have a higher amp outlet wired and have the main board replaced as it is already full.
Good advice on the resawing of others random trees, replacing the blade would be pricey.

sideroad · Jun 1, 2014

rsanter said:
Most people do not do any resawing. A friend has one as he makes custom furnature using Koa in Hawaii. That big deep blade you have there is specific to resawing.
I suspect you will need to modify or reconfigure or even replace the blade guides so you can use regular type blades. Also you need to look at the crown on the wheels as that may be different due to blade size.
The big and heavy part is the good part of the deal you got.
If that was mine I think I would install a jack shaft setup that allowed the use of step pullies so I can change speed ranges easily and then tune in the speed with the VFD. This will be good if you are cutting a lot of metal on slow speed so you don't overheat the motor from lack or cooling ( due to lack of RPMs)

Bob

Thanks Bob, I intend on making blade guides that use adjustable roller bearings, that should sort out the different blade size issues. What would I be looking at doing to the crown wheels? These ones have no tyres, is that an issue running a slimmer blade?
I agree with the jack shaft advice and a range of pulleys to select the speed, as running the VFD at slow speeds for some time could cook a motor. Is the heat the only issue when running slow? Is it possible to just add additional cooling to the motor for the low rpm uses?

rsanter · Jun 1, 2014

No crown and no tires will pose a problem for you.
In fact that will be one of the biggest down sides to that saw
I would look at getting generic replacement tires for those wheels and then I would glue them on. The bottom wheels tire done not need a crown and is best without.
The top wheel does need a crown. I would find the tires that fit and glue them on. Put a blade on it and run the machine. If it was me I would use a fine tooth small blade to avoid getting hurt if it comes off. Get the blade adjusted the best you can and leave the blade guides off. Use something like a wood lathe chisel and then with the machine running shave a crown into the upper tire. You do not need much crown. You will Likly need a steady rest to do that. If it was me I would take that upper guide holder and adjust it all the way or almost all the way down. Then clamp a steel bar to it that goes foreword and use that at the steady rest. You may need to place a stick between the table and the bar on the unsupported end as well

Bob

sideroad · Jun 4, 2014

Thanks bob, I have found tyres my size are really not too common. I'm not surprised though. I did find one place in the US that have some. I'll have to some research into the profile I need on the crown. Was thinking that I could set up a disc sander on an arm and sand the crown while the wheel is rotating. Using a chisel doesn't scare me, but a chisel and a flesh cutting blade combined does concern me.

thanks for the help do far. An thinking that I may work on getting it running, have a play with it and then go for the tyres and crown. I also have the parts from a horizontal metal cut off bandsaw and am now wondering if I should built a vert. metal saw out of it and have the big one just for timber. The metal band saw was being scraped at work as it had an issue with the blade tracking, I couldn't take the whole unit as I am short on space, but did get the saw parts and the pivot mount and vice. Any thoughts? I'll take some pics of the parts to give you an idea.

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Carla · Jun 4, 2014

Hi, sideroad,

From the photos, it appears that you did quite well for yourself.......well worth the wait and patience...... : )

That one appears to be a seriously high quality saw, and would appear.....at a guess....to be British made, or might it be an Australian made machne, to a British design?

Are there any data plates, cast names, or other markings on the machine?

You do have a good bit of work on your plate, with that one, but it will be an excellent machine when restored.

I'd be guessing late '30;s to early '50's vintage, from its general configuration, the 'best of both worlds', in that its early enough to be of heavy, high quality construction, but late enough to be ball bearing on the wheel shafts (you will need to have the bearings out, clean, inspect, and re-grease or replace them, but you already knew that, right?)

I've not done tire crowning on a large band saw myself, but have seen it done, with an air disc sander held in an improvised fixture, and the wheel turned by hand, by a helper.....not a difficult job, actually.

If you can't get new guides suitable for thinner blades in Australia, research the American 'Carter' make. You should have no problem whatever with running narrow blades on that saw, with suitable blade guides.

cheers

Carla

rsanter · Jun 4, 2014

I think the sander idea will work fine.
The exact profile of the crown is not that important. Just try to make it symmetrical and don't overcrown it. Once you run it and adjust it you can always add a little more crown with sandpaper while it is running

Bob

Packard V8 · Jun 4, 2014

If it was me I would use a fine tooth small blade to avoid getting hurt if it comes off.

One of those urban legends which I have not found to be true in fifty years of using bandsaws.

1. If one is using a bandsaw correctly, the blades don't come off.

2. Bandsaw blades have little to no inertia. When they come off, they just stop.

3. If a blade breaks, it usually just stops. Maybe twice in all the years I've seen a blade get wrapped in a wheel and it wasn't pretty, but wasn't really dangerous. Did make a helluva racket and got everyone's attention.

Your opinions and results may vary.

jack vines

gus1962 · Jun 5, 2014

That's a really nice find. Great looking band saw. It would really worth the time to fix up. Since you're in AU, I suggest you visit the woodworkforums.com site too.

rsanter · Jun 5, 2014

Packard V8 said:
One of those urban legends which I have not found to be true in fifty years of using bandsaws.

1. If one is using a bandsaw correctly, the blades don't come off.

2. Bandsaw blades have little to no inertia. When they come off, they just stop.

3. If a blade breaks, it usually just stops. Maybe twice in all the years I've seen a blade get wrapped in a wheel and it wasn't pretty, but wasn't really dangerous. Did make a helluva racket and got everyone's attention.

Your opinions and results may vary.

jack vines

I think the idea here with the fine tooth blade is that he will be operating the saw with the front cover open and be working in the area of where the blade is.
If he is trying to crown the tire and the crowning process makes the blade come off then it will be safer to be using a fine tooth blade verses a coarse tooth. I would even put the blade on backwards just to be safer

Bob

sideroad · Jun 18, 2014

Thanks for the tips Carla. I can't find a single casting or details on the make so no idea on age other than similar machines.
I did stumble on 'Carter' and they do the tyres and some great bandsaw stuff. The shipping will kill me though.

Have been giving the tyres some thought and will get some when funds allow. I will focus (funds permitting) on sourcing a motor and pulling the bearings out and re-greasing then.
Not sure what type and size motor yet and what phase. Thinking the 3phase 3hp due to the price of higher hp motors and the huge jump in price of suitable VFDs over 3hp.
Read today that to run any 3phase motor over 3hp you need to double the hp rating of the VFD. So 7.5hp needs a VFD rated at 15hp etc.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...recomemndations-single-3-phase-7-5-hp-226174/

I did freak out a little today about the size of this thing and thought I should move it on and get a 16", but with a little work this will be ok. I am just a little unsure on what it will be like running fine tooth/skinny blades. Will it just be an issue of welding my own or will I have a limit on how skinny a blade I can run? (never owned a bandsaw till now)
I did think that with the size of the blades 4710mm/185.5" I will have huge gaps in sharpening cycles, but also huge sharpen sessions.

I did get into the workshop today and move some bits about and got some pics of the horizontal metal bandsaw parts I have thought of for metal cutting.
Before I got the big wood one, I had planned on making a general vert bandsaw from these bits. Now I am thinking of making a table to use it in vert and still be able to tilt it for large cuts. Not sure what i will do as i don't do much large size steel cutting and the base I make has to allow for which ever way I go.

vice (****** heavy)

more vice

mount for vice and saw pivot

saw

details (was 470kg with base) also has a 1 1/3hp 3phase motor, was outside for 1yr, so may be stuffed.

blade size

ez-duzit · Jun 18, 2014

That's a great looking saw. A motor of ~20 hp is likely what it came with. 3 hp would be a grand joke. And it would be a real shame to screw it up by trying to DIY crown the wheels. In all the decades it's been around it was fine just as designed. Many bandsaws do not have crowned wheels or tires.

For cutting wood you don't need multiple speeds.

gus1962 · Jun 18, 2014

Wonderin' how did you move the band saw? Wish you luck and hoping to hear more progress on this.

sideroad · Jun 18, 2014

ez-duzit said:
That's a great looking saw. A motor of ~20 hp is likely what it came with. 3 hp would be a grand joke. And it would be a real shame to screw it up by trying to DIY crown the wheels. In all the decades it's been around it was fine just as designed. Many bandsaws do not have crowned wheels or tires.

For cutting wood you don't need multiple speeds.

Do you really thing it would have had that big a motor? Wow!
I looked into a 7.5hp motor with a 15hp VFD (I don't have 3 phase and can't afford to get it) and it would require a 60amp dedicated breaker and wiring. So 7.5 is out.
Can I run modern hardened tooth blades with out a crown wheel? The blade currently is sitting with the blade tips off the edge of the top wheel, but a skinny blade would be too close to coming off it I ran it the same way.
Any thoughts?

sideroad · Jun 18, 2014

As for moving it, I used my ute, 1 ton endless chain and pallet jack. I have a 800kg cable hoist to move it to the lower level of the workshop. Just have to install the hoist to distribute the load among the trusses before I can lower any large items.

Saved it from the jungle

I had to remove the old timber gluts/feet as it was too high to fit under the trusses. That in involed tipping it past balance point both way to drop it onto the bed of the ute. I used a variety of ratchet strapping to hold and tip it to prevent me or the saw from dying.
As much as I like the poly beds, they do have very limited support under the lining so it was quite unstable. I would never have a heavy item with a small footprint directly on the bed.
After looking at the pics, I can see how wrong my sling position was on the saw.
The top bearing does not have sufficient mounting to support the saw, I suspect the blade took some load down to the lower wheel.
I stand self reprimanded.
I should have lifted from the main section of frame and balanced it from the top. Will do better next time. (at least no damage done)

ez-duzit · Jun 18, 2014

A 7.5 hp 220 volt single phase motor only draws 22 amps.

I doubt this machine is setup for narrow blades.

treimers · Jun 18, 2014

As a member of the OWWM, I'd
like to _really really really_ encourage you to post all these
wonderful pics over there in the vintagemachinery site.

That, and several of the mods and very active members over there
are full-time professional 'arn' restorers.
One guy actually makes a living restoring machines for the Smithsonian
and other major museums of American history-

They can give you _lots_ of great advice on where to check for known flaws/common problems with old wwm, and how to rectify them.

Again, as was said, no short to the knowledge on this forum --
but huge woodworking machines are what those guys are all about,
and I don't think there's a more knowledgeable group on the planet!

Not to mention the fact that they'll all probably drool over that thing!
:drool:

gus1962 · Jun 23, 2014

Good luck on the restoration and modification on the speeds.

sideroad · Jul 27, 2014

Thanks to all for advice. I have just started a uni degree to get into high school tech. teaching. I'm going to be crazy busy for the next couple of years. Not sure when I will get to working on the bandsaw. Currently working close to full time and studying full time, some how I will have to find time to finish my workshop build and get it signed off with council. As I have told all my friends and family, see you in 2 years!

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kenburkholz · Jul 27, 2014

WOW! That is one fine looking machine. Around here a 5 h.p. single phase motor will cost a lot more than a 7.5 h.p. 3 phase motor, because residential installations almost NEVER, have 3 phase power. If you do you are very lucky . Go for new tires and have fun. Ken,Washington State.

sideroad · Feb 2, 2015

Bandsaw restore, big, old & heavy

Nothing new to report on the actual saw, but I found some very well priced blades on eBay and couldn't resist. Picked up 20 blades with about 3tpi, most are sharp but with some surface rust. Figured if could be a year or 2 till I use them, but at the price per meter new all 20 blades will be cheaper than a few new ones.
I am yet to do any work on the saw, still hard at study.

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My Old Tools · Feb 2, 2015

I have (2) 32" Crescent bandsaws. You will love working on a big saw with all that mass. You can use thin blades for turning work or wider blades for resawing. Do some research on Stellite and carbide tipped blades if you are going to resaw those tough abrasive hardwoods you have. Don't go overboard on the width either. Sharp and adequate tension mean more than a bigger blade. I've seen good resawing done with a 1/2" blade. You probably want a 5 hp motor if you plan to resaw 12" wood. You can build a tall fence for that. You can likely make a 27" tire work with a little heat to make it stretch, or send them to be vulcanized ($$). These guys have 26" and 28". http://woodworkerstoolworks.com/bandsaw/items/show/46.html
Northfield should have 27" since they make a 27" saw.

sideroad · Feb 5, 2015

Thanks for the advice MyOldTools. Firstly, I can understand two different types of bandsaws, but why two of the same? Just because?

I'm hoping the thin-ish blades that are on the way will do most of my work, but I know that any serious work will dull anything other then tipped blades. I will look into them once it is up and running. Yes our hardwoods are real hard. I am always amused by European and American comments on their hard woods, I would love to work with timber that soft.

When I was working as a carpenter doing renovations, I would have to predrill the old timbers before I used the 3" nail gun. Other wise the nail would just buckle.
I have much to learn about bandsaw use, and setup. No doubt I will be tapping into all the info here.
I am considering trying a leather tyre, was suggested by an old boat builder friend, who has a similar saw.
I'll check out the links and save them for when I'm getting it up and running. Thanks again.

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Bears Fan · Feb 5, 2015

That is one cool saw, glad to see you saving it :thumbup:

Jlbc212 · Feb 5, 2015

This thread brought back memories. I had an old 36" bandsaw (wheels were 36" in diameter) that I gave to my nephew when I moved to my second house over thirty years ago. It may still be in my sister's barn attic. I had bought the saw from an old gentleman who had used the saw to cut cedar for fences. I can't remember the hp of the motor, but it was physically large. The saw needed new bearings when I got it. My father-in-law, a tool designer by trade, helped me pour new Babbitt bearings. The wheels had cast iron spokes. The saw didn't have any safety guards so I made some out of plywood. The saw had a nice hum and took a long time to come to a complete stop when I turned the power off. I had the saw down in my cellar. The top wheel spun between the floor joists.

sideroad · Feb 6, 2015

I think this saw has had the sheet guards added at a latter date then when it was made. I am thinking i'll keep them, unless I make some better. I suspect this one will spin for a bit once turned off, though I am thinking of a brake to speed it up. Would be handy for when I need to adjust fences and the like without waiting or risking injury.
I can imagine how much fun it must be to get a big saw into a basement and then back out.

OccupantRJ · Feb 6, 2015

I have a 20 inch bandsaw and have been running the same home made tires on it for years. They are simply strips of 3/16" conveyor belt that were bias cut at the ends and glued onto the wheels with contact cement. No crown, and all is well.

My Old Tools · Feb 6, 2015

My Crescents are two different generations. One is a 1905 babbit bearing saw, belt drive. The other is from the 50's, Rockwell era, ball bearing and much heavier with an integral 3 phase motor. Why? Because I could

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