Old USA Vise ID - help me figure out this big boy!

SweetD · Jul 14, 2014

Guys,

Couldn't pass this one up - $30 off c-list a couple of weeks ago. Guy said it was used in a State (of RI I assume) bus garage for years and years. He didn't know anything about its potential value or anything, said since it was "rusty" he thought $30 was fair. I agreed.

It will be disassembled, e-tanked, cleaned up, primed and painted, and probably a gift to one of my good friends. Although with the moveable static jaw I may opt for the keep!

Anyway, no visible markings, logo, numbers, nothing, at least not yet. Jaws measure 4.5" wide, jaw faces are forged in (no jaw inserts). The pin for the jaw looks original, it has two slots machined into it.

Have not tried to get it apart at all yet, just some Kroil so far. Will start on it this week as a have a couple of days off.

The main base of the vise is over 6" long as reference, the ears are three inches in diameter, and the hamdle "bulb" is over two inches in diameter as well.

Reminds me of an Athol. Notice the large lip on the dynamic jaw over the bulb area on the handle. Everything about it is overbuilt and is screaming early USA-Made.

I will report back if I find any marks as I disassemble it. I will also document the restoration. Also will add more pics during the process.

Any early thoughts?

Thanks!

:beer:

Dave

drivesitfar · Jul 14, 2014

SweetD: looks sorta like my Prentiss #4 swivel jaw that is has 6 inch wide jaws. Prentiss made a lot of their vises without any casting name or logos on them so the stores that bought them could put their sticker on them.

i'm not 100% so here's a couple pictures of my Prentiss for you to decide. once you pull out the dynamic and then pull out the vise nut you can get to the swivel jaw pin from below and put the end of maybe a 1/4 inch bolt up under the pin and push up or tap with something and it might pop out.

nice old vise and guessing 1920's so almost 100 years old. :thumbup:

bonneyman · Jul 14, 2014

In any event, I say, "SCORE"! :thumbup:

toomanytoyzz · Jul 14, 2014

I agree with drivesitfar. Prentiss is my guess.

Oh by the way, you ****!!! :thumbup:

SweetD · Jul 14, 2014

I agree it is Prentiss-like...Prentiss is actually my favorite brand - I own 12 of them, from tiny to Bulldog!

I also have a really cool old Prentiss advertising pamphlet - scooped it one day on eBay for a song. It lists all kinds of models - I think it's probably from the 1920s, although there are no date indications in it at all. I've been meaning to document the whole thing as a PDF for reference:

I have not personally seen a Prentiss with no markings at all, but I do believe (and have heard) that they did make them. There are none advertised in the pamphlet that I have as far as I know, but I am going to look at it again to double check. Of course that doesn't mean there weren't any at all, just not in that particular catalog.

The other thing is I have never seen a larger Prentiss vise that did NOT have jaw inserts. Athol made them, Reed made them, but not Prentiss as far as I know. Could be wrong, but...

Thanks for the help guys, and I will continue to update as I tear it down. Maybe I will get lucky and get some sort of identifying mark inside, on the nut, etc...

:beer:

Dave

SweetD · Jul 15, 2014

Well, that was easy (unbelievable!):

Having today off, I figured I would start on this thing early and get frustrated quickly, then having time to do other things today. Well, 15 minutes in and the thing is apart.

Still cannot see any markings whatsoever on any part.

Does anyone recognize the nut retaining pin, the jaw retaining pin, or the main nut itself in terms of particular style for a given manufacturer?

How about that "indented" shape on top of the base where the moveable jaw sits?

I'm psyched that it disassembled so easily. Next stop, electrolysis tank!

:beer:

Dave

drivesitfar · Jul 15, 2014

i looked at my Prentiss #26 pictures and a lot of similar parts that you have on your no name vise. i can't remember the story behind Prentiss not marking some of their vises, but i'm pretty sure it was because they were making them for another company.

that vise looks like it's in great shape. i do like the vise nut holder which is one i can't say I've seen yet. usually it's a bent pin so maybe that was a prior owner's fix to the loose vise nut.

also the bottom of the slide looks like maybe a section was cut out where it is closed on my Prentiss #26. in any case whether it's a Prentiss swivel jaw vise or some other brand that maybe Prentiss bought you have an awesome vise and especially for what you paid for it.

Seen any RR vises lately??

SweetD · Jul 15, 2014

It does seem like a sort of "one-off" vise like would be contracted for a railroad or something. It's not huge, but 4.5" jaws and super-beefed up.

Broke out the e-bath - been awhile, still works awesome! Cheap and easy...

Dave

drivesitfar · Jul 15, 2014

the bath looks like it's cooking up some good stuff. by the way we made up a thread on the do's and don'ts of electrolysis and the vote was not to put the negative clip in the water. here's the thread if you want to know a bit more, but looks like it works well for you unless you want to wrap a wire around the vise and hang it from the stick and attach the clip to the wire on the stick.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237752&highlight=electrolysis

good luck

SweetD · Jul 15, 2014

Yeah I've always done it with the clip in the water...never had a problem...but I'm also well-ventilated and on low amps...

SweetD · Jul 16, 2014

After 24 hours in the tank, I have revealed a clue. Hoping someone can match it up to a part # from a known vise brand - the number '272' stamped into the underside of the rotate-able jaw:

Anyone have the same part # on their vise?

Thanks :beer:

Dave

SweetD · Jul 16, 2014

A quick update - no numbers or markings on the main nut, nut retaining pin, main screw collar, or jaw pin.

The #272 also appears stamped on the top of the main vise base, where the adjustable jaw would sit on it. So the base and adjustable jaw are matching numbers, which of course makes sense.

I did notice that there is a fairly common Charles Parker #272 vise out there...but this one I am working on really has none of the Parker-specific features that you normally see...

Dave

drivesitfar · Jul 16, 2014

now that the jaws are clean from the E bath can you post a few pictures of them from the sides?

good find on the #'s and i think your first guess as to matching part #'s to put the vise back together are probably truer than it being a Parker brand vise. Parker did copy Morgan's 88 version so maybe they were trying to copy a Prentiss too if they were thinking Prentiss might be going out of business.

if the jaws are solid maybe it's a Reed???

keep up the great work.

Provincial · Jul 16, 2014

The 272 numbers may just be assembly numbers stamped on parts of the same vise to keep them from being mixed up during assembly. This was common in those days on hand-fitted items that did not have serial numbers.

SweetD · Jul 16, 2014

Here are a couple of pics of the jaw face after e-bath. Notice the two pins in the side of the part. There is only one pin on the other side (matching the one closest to the jaw face). Also notice the pin below the front of the jaw face - the part is upside down in the pic. Clearly forged-in jaws.

Dave

drivesitfar · Jul 16, 2014

I also had those pins on the side of my swivel jaw Prentiss #26 and here are the pictures. Prentiss did make solid jaws like my #26 coachmaker's vise so still my guess as to the original maker. now why did they make this vise or who for is a good question.

put it back together and tell us how it works because my guess is you have a keeper there SweetD. :thumbup:

SweetD · Jul 16, 2014

drivesitfar said:
I also had those pins on the side of my swivel jaw Prentiss #26 and here are the pictures. Prentiss did make solid jaws like my #26 coachmaker's vise so still my guess as to the original maker. now why did they make this vise or who for is a good question.

put it back together and tell us how it works because my guess is you have a keeper there SweetD.

Boy that's a really good clue with the Coachmaker's vise with the forged jaws. The swivel jaw pin looks very similar too to the one I have...thanks!

Dave

bluebolt · Jul 16, 2014

I think it's a slightly different version of a Prentiss #3 see this post. http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=889350#post889350

Carla · Jul 16, 2014

I'd concur with that one being a 'no-name' Prentiss.

Its plausible that the no-name vises were made on contract for this or that hardware dealer, so privately branded, but I don't have any first-hand evidence, like old catalogue pages with vises with a recognisable Prentiss shape, but with a 'store brand' label.

I've seen some with a raised cast 'P V CO' in small letters at the back of the fixed jaw, or the very bottom of the sliding jaw, at the front. That marking if once present, could easily have become obliterated by hammer marks, over the years......look closely, once the castings are cleaned up.

cheers

Carla

SweetD · Jul 16, 2014

Carla said:
I'd concur with that one being a 'no-name' Prentiss.

Its plausible that the no-name vises were made on contract for this or that hardware dealer, so privately branded, but I don't have any first-hand evidence, like old catalogue pages with vises with a recognisable Prentiss shape, but with a 'store brand' label.

I've seen some with a raised cast 'P V CO' in small letters at the back of the fixed jaw, or the very bottom of the sliding jaw, at the front. That marking if once present, could easily have become obliterated by hammer marks, over the years......look closely, once the castings are cleaned up.

cheers

Carla

Thank you Carla for your input, I have looked for the "P V Co' lettering in the spots you mention, and see nothing. But, as you note, there is also some marring from the years in those areas, so who knows?

bluebolt - definitely some similarities between that #3 and mine - thanks!

We'll see if any more clues are revealed as I peel back the years of grime in the "wayback electrolysis machine"...!

Dave

SweetD · Jul 18, 2014

Small update:

I really cooked the vise base in the e-bath - 48 hours...pretty much 'til it stopped bubbling. In the middle of that I removed the base from the bath, degreased and wire brushed it, changed the water in the e-bath, and soaked it again. Came out really nice and clean:

Amazing how quickly the metal flashes surface rust...

Now the long parts - dynamic jaw and slide, and main screw. May have to do the half and half dip in the e-bath.

No other markings on the vise so far that I can see.

:beer:

Dave

SweetD · Aug 2, 2014

Getting there...main screw and washer are in the e-bath as I type, last parts in...still not sure what color I'm going with - I'm sure original was black. Either that or red possibly. Obviously the thin surface rust coat will be coming off as well prior to prime / paint.

I need to do some filing to the main slide to get it to move within the main casting more smoothly. Another tell-tale that it may in fact be a Prentiss is that it has that slight crack up the tail of the slide on top. Should not effect performance. Many Prentiss seem to display this trait.

stay tuned... :beer:

Dave

drivesitfar · Aug 2, 2014

glad to see you are still moving forward nicely on your mystery vise. while i was moving some vises around i found another Prentiss of mine that might help you solve your mystery.

this one is also a #4 and as you can see no casting name on either side. there is a small Prentiss Vise #4 just behind my swivel jaw as you can see in the pictures. i wonder if it somehow didn't get cast or maybe it was chiseled off. or maybe it was actually made for a certain company that put their own stickers on these vises and after almost 100 years the stickers fell off or disappeared.

cheers

SweetD · Aug 2, 2014

Man that #4 sure does look similar to mine. Those are jaw inserts on yours, correct? That thing is still "farm fresh"!

Thanks for the pics - :beer:

Dave

drivesitfar · Aug 2, 2014

you are very welcome. funny you say farm fresh because i did dig that one out of the back of a "HUGE" barn. since you started your thread I've seen a few of my Prentiss vises i have had hanging around my shop so it's a win win.

i hope i can start doing restorations as fast as you and some of the others on GJ because for now buying a vise a day is taking up most of my free time.

SweetD · Aug 2, 2014

^ That's what we call a 'Vise Vice'...

I used to be more into buying than restoring, but I don't have a barn, so I ran out of room pretty quickly on the garage shelf...

Lately I have done a few clean-ups and sold / gave as gifts a couple away. Nothing from my "private stash" of course though!

:beer:

Dave

drivesitfar · Aug 2, 2014

Sweet D: i always enjoy your threads and posts and your thinking is sound. yes the vise vice for me is getting better because i am getting pickier the last year or so. also started sharing a few of my finds with other GJ members and friends.

i do have a few favorites so those might go with me when they bury me in my "little" 500 pound cabinet. I would like to mount them all so check out the vise stand threads i have started if you want to add to them or maybe find another way to mount your crew.

what color is the mystery vise going to be or how about naked with boiled linseed oil since i think a lot of the old Prentiss vises were almost sold that way?

in case you want to make a nice 200 pound stand for your big mystery vise here's one i have my 130 pound Parker sitting on that doesn't move much unless i give it an effort to do so. you don't need a swivel base when you have a nice stand and this one i can move out in the driveway for some pretty big stuff if i need to.

cheers

SweetD · Aug 2, 2014

Love that stand!

For the color, thinking either black, red or possibly naked as you mention.

SweetD · Aug 3, 2014

Re-assembled, no lube, test fit. Main screw moves easily and smoothly with a single finger - nice. Pretty much ready to figure out how I want to finish and protect the vise.

Now comes the fun part!

Dave

drivesitfar · Aug 3, 2014

i think i want to trade you for a bunch of RR track i have sitting around or is this old gem becoming a keeper? how about 60 pounds of RR track that i can ship in a flat rate USPS box for the vise and i'll pay the shipping for the vise to me?

cheers

EOC_Jason · Aug 3, 2014

Very cool find... Seems people find these every now and then so I'll repost what I know...

Yes, it's a Prentiss, their "generic / house brand" version. Sometimes you can find small "Prentiss" or "PVC" or "PV Co" letters on the top back of the static house, but usually they get wore down or are missing.

The main difference in the generic vs branded versions is the generics have cast-in jaws vs replaceable. There is also a boss missing on the front side (see attached picture) that gives it a little extra structural support.

It is theoried they would make these for hardware stores of the time to sell under their own name. But really it was such a long time ago and no actual information exists so it's all just speculation.

The numbers you saw stamped into the casting should be present on all parts. It was a number to simply keep the pieces grouped together once they were fitted up. It is not a date stamp or anything like that.

SweetD · Aug 3, 2014

EOC_Jason said:
Very cool find... Seems people find these every now and then so I'll repost what I know...

Yes, it's a Prentiss, their "generic / house brand" version. Sometimes you can find small "Prentiss" or "PVC" or "PV Co" letters on the top back of the static house, but usually they get wore down or are missing.

The main difference in the generic vs branded versions is the generics have cast-in jaws vs replaceable. There is also a boss missing on the front side (see attached picture) that gives it a little extra structural support.

It is theoried they would make these for hardware stores of the time to sell under their own name. But really it was such a long time ago and no actual information exists so it's all just speculation.

The numbers you saw stamped into the casting should be present on all parts. It was a number to simply keep the pieces grouped together once they were fitted up. It is not a date stamp or anything like that.

You're the man. My bench vise is a #92 Prentiss, and you are correct in that it does have that boss present. And, the "lip" on the swivel jaw on the one I am working on has definitely been hammered on, etc. It seems like it's missing or at least heavily deformed - no way any Prentiss marking has survived in that area.

I found the #5 stamped into the ball of the main handle. Weird.

Also, mine clearly has the "generic" cast-in jaws...

Great info Jason, thanks again.

Dave

Old USA Vise ID - help me figure out this big boy!

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