A Lifetime Warranty, Is Not A License To Destroy

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

I was talking with my Cornwell dealer today. He had a pile of broken tools; that, looked new, besides the breakage. :headscrat

I said, I have had the same models for years and never had a problem. He told me some stories about "tool use", and the abuse he had seen. he also stated, they are under warranty anyway, but it must be frustrating. Like 1/2inch to 3/8 adaptors, being put on a 3/4 to 1/2 inch adaptors, with a 3/4 impact driving it, standing on 3/8dr. ratchets, impacting chrome sockets, etc.etc..

If I try to put myself in their place, I might have an attitude the third week, I received the same tool back. I have an idea about what I would say, but I'll keep it to myself :lol_hitti

Anyhow, this is not an excuse for dealers/companies, not to accept legitimate claims.

I figured, based on many years, about 3 percent of all the tools bought needed warranty for legitimate reasons. The number was worse; when, I was young, but for the past decade, 3% is accurate.

Alot of guys are pretty good about proper use, the few that think, lifetime warranty means destroy, without penalty, hurt the industry, and probably drive prices up.

I think, dealers should have to warranty for their customers only. Corporate should take care of the non-dealer claims. i.e.If you bought a SO tool on ebay, why should a dealer take it out of his inventory and hurt his stock, if you are not his customer???SO corporate should take care of it. It's the tool companies' warranty. They are screwing their own dealers, no wonder they are stressed. :scared:

speed bump · Nov 25, 2008

Its always interesting to see how well people can break stuff.

After working summers in enviornments where tools see alot of abuse and spending a fair amount of timing wrenching on everything my family breaks I have only managed to break about 3 tools.

1.) 13mm 3/8" chrome Cman socket. It got used on a 3/8" impact becuase I needed a bolt out now and didn't have any metric deep impacts. I think it still sits in my box.

2.) Pitman arm puller while trying to pull the pitman arm on an 89 Dodge van.

3.) SO mini complex pick. I was picking the old sealer out of my 71 fords drip rail and it finally let go.

I have worn out several tools as well though. These are mostly things like 8" Klein dykes, bit inserts, and small 12 point 1/4" sockets.

The biggest list of stuff I have warrentied goes to stuff that I intentionally or unitentionally that was broken. Bent or twisted extensions (1 intentionally 1 not) ratchets (1 intentionally(needed rebuilt) 1 not), sockets (1 not) wrenches ( 1 intentionally) and screwdrivers (1 intentionally).

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

Yeah, stuff breaks; sometimes, for seemingly no reason. Sometimes out of haste. Anyhow, some of the Cornwell dealers stories, were comical. There are some real tool abuse violators out there. Warranty returns every week, ridiculous. :yikes:

Here he comes again, lock the truck door :lol_hitti

eschoendorff · Nov 25, 2008

That's part of the gig. Our S/O dealer warranties a lot of stuff. I'm sure that some of it is questionable... but he doesn't give people grief. Oh, and he sells a LOT of tools. Just part of the cost of doing business...

Stuey · Nov 25, 2008

People do this to electronics stores and cell phone service providers all the time - they pay a certain amount of money for a "no questions asked" replacement policy and then when a new model comes out that they want, BAM, they break it and trade in. In those cases they paid the premium for the extra warranty. In this case, everyon shares the extra premium for the warranty - that's why some of Snap On's offerings are rebadged products with an extra 40% or more markup.

If I were a dealer, I totally wouldn't warranty anything from new customers. When one walks into a store without a receipt and wants to return or exchange a product, approval to do so is often up to a manager's discretion, so why should a tool dealer's policies be any different.

PAToyota · Nov 25, 2008

I agree that one way or another this practice ultimately hurts the consumer.

As Stuey mentions, I've encountered people who trash their cell phones every time they want an upgrade. In that case, the cell phone company recognizes what is going on and charges accordingly for the "warranty" - not to mention that upgrades usually come with more features and a higher monthly bill. In reality, the last thing a cell phone company probably wants is for you to hold onto your phone forever.

But for things like the replacement warranty on tools, abuse ends up costing the consumer in one of two ways. Either the manufacturer is going to roll the cost of replacements into the up-front cost of the tools or they are going to cheapen them to the point that they truly are "disposable" items - think HF. Another issue is increased scrutiny in general on warranty returns - which hurts you if you have a legitimate claim and have to go through the extra hassle and end up feeling like they're treating you like some sort of criminal.

rsanter · Nov 25, 2008

the warranty is as it is written/presented
warranty against manufacturing and material defects is alot different that warranty for satisfaction guaranteed.
lifetime is only the term of time that is applied to the specifics of the warranty.

I have used tools hard and I have even abused tools in an effort to get something done.
sometimes the tool is a means to an end and it can be sacrificed and other times (or other tools) I would never do that to

I understand what you guys are saying about dealers not warrantying stuff that did not come from them or stuff from a new customer, however look at it from a different view.
1 at some point everyone is a new customer
2 if you want to expand your buisness you need new customers
3 its not my fault that a dealer retires or goes out of buisness, why do I have to then go a different route because of change that I had no say in
4 if a warranty is for the original customer only, do you really expect someone to keep a piece of paper for 20-30-40 years just to show they bought it? what if I buy one new and then buy one off ebay and just claim its the same one

either warranty it for life or for a period of time
and either warranty for manufacturing defects (no abuse) or unconditional, but please do not play games with me over the warranty because that is the fastest way to loose me as a customer.
we are going into some of the hardest economic times this country has seen. this is really not the time to be ******* off your customers or you can be looking at going out of buisness

bob

justinmc · Nov 25, 2008

I dunno... the Mac guy told me flat out to get some screwdrivers with bent shafts warrantied I'd need to "break the tips". He said he didn't care if I did it in front of him but couldn't warranty otherwise. WTF?? I didn't break them.. I kinda felt like it wasn't right. If its not a warranty piece then why turn it into one just for the sake of getting it replaced? Eh... so I have a couple of bent Mac screwdrivers in one of my drawers. LOL

Stephenw · Nov 25, 2008

justinmc said:
Eh... so I have a couple of bent Mac screwdrivers in one of my drawers.

And you bent those shafts turning a screw?

48548 · Nov 25, 2008

I could do the same thing with any electronics, buy a new one and warranty an old one, except that they got smarter and put serial numbers on them so you know which one is in warranty or not. Kinda of like snap on with the date codes and if you have a proof of purchase and the date code is off by a lot(say same model, 20 years apart), I wonder if that would set off a red flag if they were to start asking for proof of purchase?

48548 · Nov 25, 2008

I would try to straighten the bent screwdrivers if possible...

krusty the clown · Nov 25, 2008

a lot of times, right or wrong, your warranty will depend on the dealers relaionship with the company and your relationship with the dealer. the tool companies will reject warranty if your rolling purchase average is below 60% of national average. this is an clause in the contact between dealer and company, it gives the company an out to push a dealer who is struggling out of the truck. a dealer will be more willing to warranty a questionable item if you are a good customer because he doesn't want to lose your business. a customer that hasn't proven his willingness to make his payments might not get a questionable item warranteed. i see both sides of the coin here.........this is just the view "from the drivers seat".

garfunkle24 · Nov 25, 2008

justinmc said:
I dunno... the Mac guy told me flat out to get some screwdrivers with bent shafts warrantied I'd need to "break the tips". He said he didn't care if I did it in front of him but couldn't warranty otherwise. WTF?? I didn't break them.. I kinda felt like it wasn't right. If its not a warranty piece then why turn it into one just for the sake of getting it replaced? Eh... so I have a couple of bent Mac screwdrivers in one of my drawers. LOL

If we have worn out (as opposed to broken) stuff our Snap-on guy will usually break them properly just so he doesn't get hassled on the warranty claim. eg. worn sockets are put on a BB and cracked, screwdrivers get the tip clamped in a vise and the bolster gets torqued with a wrench.

ZRX61 · Nov 25, 2008

In 30 years of wrenching the only sockets I've broken had both been modified with a grinder to get into a tight space. Wore out a 1/2in drive Kamasa ratchet & broke the tip off a screwdriver when I dropped something on it...
Can't think of anything else...

justinmc · Nov 25, 2008

fyi... I got these at an auction or something and they were already bent. Nothing that "I" did. I actually straightened them up in the vice but frankly the metal in the shafts was so soft it EASILY bent. One was bent right at the tip and of course won't straighten out. Either way.. compared to other screwdrivers I own I was less than impressed with the quality of these when I stuck them in the vice. I straightened them out as much as I could. One is probably somewhat useable now that its been straightened.. the other is still kinked at the tip. I'm not a big fan of bending something like that back into shape anyways as it just tends to weaken the tool even more.

justinmc · Nov 25, 2008

ZRX61 said:
In 30 years of wrenching the only sockets I've broken had both been modified with a grinder to get into a tight space. Wore out a 1/2in drive Kamasa ratchet & broke the tip off a screwdriver when I dropped something on it...
Can't think of anything else...

I've broken a few chrome sockets... just stuff where the fasteners were over torqued or I was using a 1/4" drive when I probably should've been using a 3/8, etc.

krusty the clown · Nov 25, 2008

ZRX61 said:
In 30 years of wrenching the only sockets I've broken had both been modified with a grinder to get into a tight space.

just curious here, is that 30 years of profesional use or home use? i have broken many sockets at work and very few at home. i think there are two reasons for socket failures one is how loose it fits on the fastener ( whether it's from socket wear or fastener wear) and two fatigue of the metal in the socket. i think reason one is the primary cause.

paramudduck · Nov 25, 2008

If I break a wrench doing some thing stupid. Then I consider it a offering to the tool gods.
My stupidity/desperation caused it so I eat the cost.

My hatred is when a tool does an epic fail under light load and the dealer whiffles and minces on the warranty.

Heck, I never even break bolts loose with a ratchet. Had it literally beaten in my head by Grandpappy. "Solid metal to break them loose, moving for speed." and "Pry bars to pry and screw drivers to turn."

Junkman · Nov 25, 2008

My old SO dealer was great, and would warranty any tool that wasn't abused. If it was abused, he would warranty it and tell you that it was a one time "favor", since a tool is to be used properly for warranty claims. He was very good about screwdriver and pick replacements. I recently learned that chisels were considered warranty-able, but the SO dealer that I now use at a friends shop, isn't aware of this. He is very slow to warranty anything, and as a result, most of the guys have stopped buying from him until he replaces all those broken tools lying on the counter. My old SO dealer would even warranty MAC tools for you, by replacing them with Snap-On of the equivalent tool. He had a friend that was a MAC dealer, and they would just swap items of similar value. Both of them had loyal followings. I believe that they are both retired, since the last time I was in the neighborhood that he serviced, I saw a much younger guy driving the truck.

Stephenw · Nov 25, 2008

justinmc said:
fyi... I got these at an auction or something and they were already bent.

So, you're expecting a full warranty replacement for a tool you bought used, and it was already damaged?

I don't know about MAC tools, but Snap-on only extends warranty to the original purchaser.

This, I think, is the whole point of this thread. There are those who abuse the warranty and make it difficult for persons with legitimate warranty claims to get the warranty service they are due.

Examples...

Intentionally breaking tools to trade them in for new.

Intentional abuse and misuse.

Buying used tools and damaging them in order to trade them for new.

Buying damaged used tools to get new tools under warranty.

Everyone for themselves. No honesty, integrity, or personal responsibility.

Junkman · Nov 25, 2008

You have to love the new guy on the block that makes sweeping judgements of all that have come before him.. I think that it is time for me to join Franz...

garfunkle24 · Nov 25, 2008

Stephenw said:
So, you're expecting a full warranty replacement for a tool you bought used, and it was already damaged?

I don't know about MAC tools, but Snap-on only extends warranty to the original purchaser.

This, I think, is the whole point of this thread. There are those who abuse the warranty and make it difficult for persons with legitimate warranty claims to get the warranty service they are due.

Examples...

Intentionally breaking tools to trade them in for new.

Intentional abuse and misuse.

Buying used tools and damaging them in order to trade them for new.

Buying damaged used tools to get new tools under warranty.

Everyone for themselves. No honesty, integrity, or personal responsibility.

Hey Stephenw

How about you climb down from that soapbox and read a person's thread properly before you start giving them a hard time?

The exact point he was making was that he kept the screwdrivers, rather than try for warranty and compromise his own ethics in the process.

Stephenw said:
Everyone for themselves. No honesty, integrity, or personal responsibility.

Maybe this should read:

garfunkle24 said:
No patience, no humility, or ability to read

(nb. I copied the shoddy sentence structure)

justinmc · Nov 25, 2008

Stephenw said:
So, you're expecting a full warranty replacement for a tool you bought used, and it was already damaged?

I don't know about MAC tools, but Snap-on only extends warranty to the original purchaser.

This, I think, is the whole point of this thread. There are those who abuse the warranty and make it difficult for persons with legitimate warranty claims to get the warranty service they are due.

Examples...

Intentionally breaking tools to trade them in for new.

Intentional abuse and misuse.

Buying used tools and damaging them in order to trade them for new.

Buying damaged used tools to get new tools under warranty.

Everyone for themselves. No honesty, integrity, or personal responsibility.

Hey... in case you didnt' notice.. read the part where I mention that he said he can't warranty the bent shafts but if I break them he can warranty them. I wasn't comfortable with destroying a screwdriver in front of the driver just to get a warranty so I just said.. nah thats ok and put them BACK in my box. As for warranty abuse.... You are telling me that you never buy any used tools and never expect any warranty on a used tool? Even a craftsman piece? Maybe you are a better human than I but I don't think I was abusing the system. I asked IF he could warranty them. He said no (then offered to let me break them in front of him so he could warranty) I said.. ok thats cool and went on my merry way. Seriously.. how is that an abuse?

cruiser808 · Nov 25, 2008

justinmc said:
Hey... in case you didnt' notice.. read the part where I mention that he said he can't warranty the bent shafts but if I break them he can warranty them. I wasn't comfortable with destroying a screwdriver in front of the driver just to get a warranty so I just said.. nah thats ok and put them BACK in my box. As for warranty abuse.... You are telling me that you never buy any used tools and never expect any warranty on a used tool? Even a craftsman piece? Maybe you are a better human than I but I don't think I was abusing the system. I asked IF he could warranty them. He said no (then offered to let me break them in front of him so he could warranty) I said.. ok thats cool and went on my merry way. Seriously.. how is that an abuse?

Justin - I'm with you on this. No abuse here. You were straight up with the dealer and he was straight up with you. Either way it would have played out in an exchange, you did the right thing. :thumbup:

Stephenw · Nov 25, 2008

garfunkle24 said:
How about you climb down from that soapbox and read a person's thread properly before you start giving them a hard time?

The exact point he was making was that he kept the screwdrivers, rather than try for warranty and compromise his own ethics in the process.

Read it again. He wanted to get them warrantied because of the bent shafts.

justinmc said:
the Mac guy told me flat out to get some screwdrivers with bent shafts warrantied I'd need to "break the tips".

The MAC dealer wouldn't warranty them for just bent shafts, they would have to be broken further.

I was setting up justinmc to use as an example. My angle was tool abuse. Usually the only way screwdrivers get bent shafts is when they are used as pry bars. When he stated he bought them used and they were already bent, that was just bonus points.

I'm entitled to post my opinion, as you are entitled to yours.

SteveV · Nov 25, 2008

I sometimes think it would be best if the tool companies just charged a small, nominal fee for warranty replacements. There's almost an incentive to abuse your tools because your promised a shiny new one absolutely free. For example, if in the back of your mind you knew it was going to cost you a few dollars if you put that regular chrome socket on an impact gun and bust it, users would be more pro-active and avoid this type of behavior. Another example would be pulling out a breaker bar instead of a using a cheater pipe on a ratchet, etc. It's amazing how much smarter people get when screw-ups are on their dime.

Also, I'm sure all sorts of older tools end up being purposely broken just to get a new one for free. If they knew it was going to cost them a little coin, they'd probably make due with their old tool. It would also slow down the people that hunt up old, rusted and busted tools at flea markets and garage sales, and exchange them for new. Not that anyone on this board would do such a thing. :lol_hitti

At the end of the day, I'm guessing a policy like this would be too risky, and could turn enough people off that they would take their tool dollars to another manufacturer that didn't have a replacement fee, costing the tool company more money than it would save. It's just sort of a cultural thing here in America that professionals expect a brand new tool for free if it ever breaks. The problem is, we all end up paying more for our tools, because the manufacturer just passes those costs along to the consumer.

Stephenw · Nov 25, 2008

justinmc, nothing personal. I was just setting you up to use as an example to make a point.

krusty the clown · Nov 25, 2008

SteveV said:
It's just sort of a cultural thing here in America that professionals expect a brand new tool for free if it ever breaks.

it's not just professionals or just tools. how many time have you heard someone bragging because they got ford or chevy to warranty something that was obvious abuse? how many times have you heard of someone taking something they bought at a yard sale back to wal mart and throwing a fit until they gave them a new one just to shut them up?

Junkman · Nov 25, 2008

Stephenw said:
Read it again........................

I'm entitled to post my opinion, as you are entitled to yours.

and we are entitled to criticize your elitist opinions whenever we see them !!!!!!

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

The thread was introduced; after, a conversation with my Cornwell dealer, about blatant abuse of the warranty.

When people "flag" him down for "off the cuff" warranty service, he asks them if they would like to set up an account, and buy tools. If the answer is no, and it doesn't appear to be a "real" customer, he simply gives them the info. to contact Cornwell direct.

The above seems fair, the truck dealers pay out of pocket for their inventory, why break into it for everyone with "yardsale" purchases.

Cornwell doesn't have the, has to be broken theory. I never understood, why it has to be entirely broken. Probably; because, guys would take advantage over frivilous "tool scars" and the sort.

Anyhow, I and many others I know, rarely break tools. I buy doubles for the tools I like, in many cases, to even out the wear, so to speak.

Anyhow, My CW dealers point is 90% of the warranty claims he sees, could have been avoided, with a little care and common sense.

Junkman · Nov 25, 2008

Most of my Snap-On claims have been for either broken sockets or peeling chrome. The peeling chrome is a real issue for me, and I will not use a tool that has peeling chrome because of the safety hazard. I have broken a few screw driver tips by using a wrench on the top hex, but that is what it is there for. Not my fault that the screw was more stubborn. Pick points break from use, and it is expected. My problem now is that the Snap-On driver doesn't want to warranty anything. Since he is only a paid driver, he doesn't make any money on anything that is warranted, and only makes a small commission on new stuff. He doesn't care about the customers, so it seems. This week, he didn't even show up, since no one is willing to buy from him until they get the warranty items taken care of. He is known around the shop as "The Jerk"... :lol_hitti

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

Stephenw said:
justinmc, nothing personal. I was just setting you up to use as an example to make a point.

Stephenw
I read the above, I understand, you probably didn't think it was a big deal, and it really wasn't.

By reading your posts, I see we probably have some background in common.

I have made the mistake of demonstrating my "subtle as a snow shovel to the face" paradigm.

That's fine, but like me, you'll get some snowballs thrown back at you :lol_hitti

Keep up your posts, you seem knowledgeable, all the members seem to have contributing qualities for the blog, regardless of opinion, and most are probably men, no offense to any women members, and men, in general get ticked quick and cool of pretty quick, unless it's a big deal. Have a good one :thumbup:

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

autoace said:
The thread was introduced; after, a conversation with my Cornwell dealer, about blatant abuse of the warranty.

When people "flag" him down for "off the cuff" warranty service, he asks them if they would like to set up an account, and buy tools. If the answer is no, and it doesn't appear to be a "real" customer, he simply gives them the info. to contact Cornwell direct.

The above seems fair, the truck dealers pay out of pocket for their inventory, why break into it for everyone with "yardsale" purchases.

Cornwell doesn't have the, has to be broken theory. I never understood, why it has to be entirely broken. Probably; because, guys would take advantage over frivilous "tool scars" and the sort.

Anyhow, I and many others I know, rarely break tools. I buy doubles for the tools I like, in many cases, to even out the wear, so to speak.

Anyhow, My CW dealers point is 90% of the warranty claims he sees, could have been avoided, with a little care and common sense.

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

Junkman said:
Most of my Snap-On claims have been for either broken sockets or peeling chrome. The peeling chrome is a real issue for me, and I will not use a tool that has peeling chrome because of the safety hazard. I have broken a few screw driver tips by using a wrench on the top hex, but that is what it is there for. Not my fault that the screw was more stubborn. Pick points break from use, and it is expected. My problem now is that the Snap-On driver doesn't want to warranty anything. Since he is only a paid driver, he doesn't make any money on anything that is warranted, and only makes a small commission on new stuff. He doesn't care about the customers, so it seems. This week, he didn't even show up, since no one is willing to buy from him until they get the warranty items taken care of. He is known around the shop as "The Jerk"...

I had such problems with So, I loved the tools, and hated the service. The parting was bitter sweet. It is kind of like leaving a beautiful woman; because, you cannot stand her. The product is hot, but the lip service kills you. :lol_hitti

krusty the clown · Nov 25, 2008

i have had a broken 8" snap on prybar in my toolbox for about 4 years. it had been heated and bent to make a hook tool (don't remember why), and of course when i used it it broke. i never bothered to try to get it warranted since i damaged it. so as an experiment i gave it to my dealer monday (he is also a company employed dealer). he ordered me a replacement since he didn't have one on the truck, it was no problem.

daveblank · Nov 25, 2008

Stuey said:
If I were a dealer, I totally wouldn't warranty anything from new customers. .

Why not? A warranty is a warranty. If you refuse it from a new customer, then you might have just lost him as a customer for life.

Stephenw said:
So, you're expecting a full warranty replacement for a tool you bought used, and it was already damaged?

but Snap-on only extends warranty to the original purchaser.

Buying damaged used tools to get new tools under warranty.

Sure, Why should it matter if you bought it new or used? Why should SO only warranty to the original buyer?

What if you bought a Dodge truck used with 10k miles. The powertrain warranty is 7yrs/70k miles. Now lets say at 40k miles your transmission fails & you tow it to the dealership. Later that day, the service advisor calls you & informs you that since you bought the truck used it has no warranty! They don't care that it hasn't been abused & the maintenance is up to date! Do you think you'd be pissed? I know I would be.

autoace said:
The thread was introduced; after, a conversation with my Cornwell dealer, about blatant abuse of the warranty.

When people "flag" him down for "off the cuff" warranty service, he asks them if they would like to set up an account, and buy tools. If the answer is no, and it doesn't appear to be a "real" customer, he simply gives them the info. to contact Cornwell direct.

The above seems fair, the truck dealers pay out of pocket for their inventory, why break into it for everyone with "yardsale" purchases.

Anyhow, My CW dealers point is 90% of the warranty claims he sees, could have been avoided, with a little care and common sense.

He should warranty them because that's the warranty policy. It should be in his franchise agreement that he should handle claims presented to him.

Can care & common sense prevent some claims? Sure

Merkava_4 · Nov 25, 2008

Stephenw said:
The MAC dealer wouldn't warranty them for just bent shafts, they would have to be broken further.

That MAC dealer should have warranted them!!

That dealer is a *****!!

autoace · Nov 25, 2008

Daveblank:
Thanks for the input, I think his DM set it up that way. I don't blame him for that though, especially if its not a route regular. He wouldn't refuse any new route patron. It's more like the guys; that, flag him down at a lunch resturant,or gas station,etc...

Merkava_4 · Nov 25, 2008

SteveV said:
I sometimes think it would be best if the tool companies just charged a small, nominal fee for warranty replacements.

That fee is supposed to be built into the exorbitant price!!

rsanter · Nov 25, 2008

I really dont think I abuse my tools too much but I do use them hard (or should we say near or slightly over their limits)
build a quality tool and there should be much less warranty issues.
I think the breakage ratio between SO and Cman is about 1 to 300

in my life I think I have only broken under 20 SO tools and had to have 2 ratchets rebuilt (and one of those ratchets was my dads and is 40 years old)

bob

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