Fire House and Garage part II

onemoretry · Jan 10, 2009

Fire House and Garage part II (winter projects)

My first build thread got a little long, so I decided to start another post for the second building. I'll call the first one the garage, and the second the barn. The barn is about 50% bigger than the garage and is intended to house the fire truck. It will still give me room for the lift and a second floor wood shop.
The crew has been working about 5 days, but I haven't been around to update. So the last pictures on this post are from yesterday, basically day 4.
If it looks interesting, I highly recommend checking out www.geobarns.com.

The first thread can be found here. I will update it with the Raynor doors when they get installed.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23941

(winter projects)

onemoretry · Jan 10, 2009

Some more pictures.

Kevin54 · Jan 10, 2009

Nice builds and looking forward to the pics. But this pic just kind of chills me to the bone and make we want to stay in instead of heading out for anything. :lol_hitti

kbs2244 · Jan 10, 2009

Is there any reason you didn't put the upstairs floor joists on top of the beams instead of useing the nailed on support strip?

It does look pretty stout though!

NRChopshop · Jan 10, 2009

Ive been out since 8 this morning cleaning up the trees and 6-7" branches that ice took out around my house. Neighbor down the street had a 60' tall tree split three ways. Not fun weather to be working in

woodbutcher · Jan 11, 2009

they dont use a mortise and tenon joint ? looks like they keep adding wood? im sorry but a craftsman would do it right. looks like they get a good price on material, for as much as they use imo. maybe he does it so he can have 10an hr carpenters? its a tough biz to be in if your a craftsman, theres always someone that ll under bid you. good luck

Bull · Jan 11, 2009

woodbutcher said:
they dont use a mortise and tenon joint ? looks like they keep adding wood? im sorry but a craftsman would do it right. looks like they get a good price on material, for as much as they use imo. maybe he does it so he can have 10an hr carpenters? its a tough biz to be in if your a craftsman, theres always someone that ll under bid you. good luck

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Zero.

onemoretry · Jan 12, 2009

Kevin54 said:
Nice builds and looking forward to the pics. But this pic just kind of chills me to the bone and make we want to stay in instead of heading out for anything.

It was pretty nasty, I can't believe that they kept working in it. They took safety precautions, but, frankly I would have headed in...

onemoretry · Jan 12, 2009

kbs2244 said:
Is there any reason you didn't put the upstairs floor joists on top of the beams instead of useing the nailed on support strip?

It does look pretty stout though!

Height and strength. Think of it as a traditional floor without the joist hangers.

onemoretry · Jan 12, 2009

NRChopshop said:
Ive been out since 8 this morning cleaning up the trees and 6-7" branches that ice took out around my house. Neighbor down the street had a 60' tall tree split three ways. Not fun weather to be working in

Mine wasn't too bad this time, I lost everything in a previous storm...

onemoretry · Jan 12, 2009

woodbutcher said:
they dont use a mortise and tenon joint ? looks like they keep adding wood? im sorry but a craftsman would do it right. looks like they get a good price on material, for as much as they use imo. maybe he does it so he can have 10an hr carpenters? its a tough biz to be in if your a craftsman, theres always someone that ll under bid you. good luck

I can't believe that you don't post this in every thread you look at.

Time, cost, value, strength, all make sense to me. The building is fully engineered and works out to be incredibly strong. All of my engineer drawings come from a third party that agrees that this design is about the strongest he has ever seen. The first garage went up in 12 days, so he does save time, but implying that it isn't a quality building is idiotic and ignorant.

If you can only bare to look at one type of construction, then please leave this thread. If you would like to learn about a hybrid construction technique, that is faster, less expensive, stronger, and more environmentally friendly then please participate.

I am too sick and tired to comment any further.

Homebody · Jan 12, 2009

Looking good! Good idea on the second thread for the second building.

BTW, Woodbutcher = FAIL :wtf:

onemoretry · Jan 15, 2009

Sorry it has been so long for an update. I contracted a nice case of the pneumonia and have been down for the count. Progress certainly continues despite the weather and issues with the concrete contractor's work. The size of the building is certainly evident now. When we finished the garage, I thought it felt huge, but now in comparison, it seems small. This barn is enormous.
The first picture really shows the size, especially now that the rafters are up. It took three guys less than a day to put the trusses and purlins up, simply amazing especially given they made them on site and had no crane...
The second picture shows the transom windows ready to be installed. The third is the detail for the fascia boards. The fourth is a nice panoramic of the neighbors yard.
Enjoy...

Edit:
I forgot the mention that the first picture you can see the bump up for the lift area. The main part of the building the floor joists are 11 feet off of the floor, in the lift area, they are slightly over 13 feet.

nathank · Jan 15, 2009

This structure is awesome! Very nice!

fotoflojoe · Jan 15, 2009

Nice work, that's a great looking space. I don't know a lot about this type of construction. Are the diagonal studs traditionally part of pole barn design, or is that a Geobarns concept? Also, how tricky do they make wiring and plumbing?

sharpshooter · Jan 15, 2009

Yeah, whats up with the diagonal studs???? it looks really cool LOL.... How hard will that make it to hit a stud

Skyline · Jan 15, 2009

I have a question about the way the second floor floor joists are supported:

I see that on the outside walls they sit on top of the walls, but it appears that on the interior, they are simply toenailed with blocks nailed in-between. Am I not seeing something here? Perhaps I need updating, but I thought that when there is an unsupported joist, a joist hanger is generally used?

onemoretry · Jan 15, 2009

fotoflojoe said:
Nice work, that's a great looking space. I don't know a lot about this type of construction. Are the diagonal studs traditionally part of pole barn design, or is that a Geobarns concept? Also, how tricky do they make wiring and plumbing?

That is a Geobarns concept. It makes for a much stronger building and removes the need for plywood sheathing, thus reducing cost and waste.

Wiring is a little different, but not much. A little bit of forethought and it should not really impact electrical install cost.

onemoretry · Jan 15, 2009

sharpshooter said:
Yeah, whats up with the diagonal studs???? it looks really cool LOL.... How hard will that make it to hit a stud

I pretty much use a stud finder on traditional framing, so not that big of a deal if you know it was done this way to begin with.

Bull · Jan 15, 2009

fotoflojoe;370770Also said:
I did the wiring in my barn, and it was not difficult. As onemoretry said, a little planning is helpful (as with any job) but there are no special difficulties.

Also, I SUPPOSE that if one were to finish the interior with drywall, then finding a stud to hang a picture would be slightly more difficult than in vertical stud framing. But that is what stud finders are for.

I am finishing the interior of my barn off with boards (it is a BARN, after all) and leaving the froo froo drywall for my house.

onemoretry · Jan 15, 2009

Skyline said:
I have a question about the way the second floor floor joists are supported:

I see that on the outside walls they sit on top of the walls, but it appears that on the interior, they are simply toenailed with blocks nailed in-between. Am I not seeing something here? Perhaps I need updating, but I thought that when there is an unsupported joist, a joist hanger is generally used?

You are correct, joist hangers are typically used, but not much is typical with this building... The joists are toe-nailed in with blocks nailed between. The engineer is perfectly OK with the design.

wrigh003 · Jan 15, 2009

Neat. All those triangles- that barn's going to be there for a while. If there's no need for plywood sheathing, what's done for tyvek / tar paper/ vapor barrier? Does it go straight up over the framing, or is there some other approach taken? Seems like if you just put it up over there it'd blow around a lot while the siding was being installed, and maybe tear up. Maybe rigid insulation panels over the outside of the framing?

Bull · Jan 15, 2009

On my barn, George used Tyvek and, when that ran out, Vortec. It was stapled directly to the framing. The entire barn was sided in a day (ok, a day and a half) so the vapor barrier didn't have time to blow around anywhere before it was covered up with boards!

wrigh003 said:
Neat. All those triangles- that barn's going to be there for a while. If there's no need for plywood sheathing, what's done for tyvek / tar paper/ vapor barrier? Does it go straight up over the framing, or is there some other approach taken? Seems like if you just put it up over there it'd blow around a lot while the siding was being installed, and maybe tear up. Maybe rigid insulation panels over the outside of the framing?

Mr. Welsh · Jan 16, 2009

faster, less expensive, stronger, and more environmentally friendly

I've been following both of your build threads and I checked out the website, but I'm still confused by where exactly these cost savings are coming from. I'll take your word that you're using less material than typical 16" on center stud framing, but these savings will be offset by increased cost in labor for electrical/plumbing/HVAC/insulation...basically anything that goes in these walls is going to take longer to install. Also, you keep saying how strong this framing is...but the structure is post & beam. It doesn't seem to me that these little wall sections would make much difference in cost or strength, but all these angled cuts seem like they would take longer.

Without getting into your personal financials, can you paint a better picture of what the cost comparison is? I'm struggling to see the benefits of this method other than the beauty of the exposed framing.

Bull · Jan 16, 2009

If you are really curious, you could contact George himself. For a guy who has more work than most humans could handle, he is VERY good about getting back to people quickly who have inquiries about his buildings. He's not a "regular" builder by any means.

I worked on the construction of my barn with the two-man crew every single day of the build, which took seventeen days to complete the shell. I can tell you from first-hand experience that the angled cuts do not slow down the process...as onemoretry has pointed out, these guys work QUICKLY, and what seems like a more complicated and time consuming process to you is, to them, a matter of routine.

I can also tell you that I priced out several types of buildings from different companies and builders. 2x4 and 2x6 stick, metal etc. My Geobarn was very cost effective, and both the product and the process were much more satisfying to me than any of the other options from both an aesthetic and spiritual (in the secular sense) point of view.

Repeatedly, people here suggest that electrical and plumbing work will be complicated and prohibitively expensive compared to vertical stud framing. I personally worked on the wiring of my barn with my electrician. It was fun, and unless drilling a few holes is to be considered complicated, it was very straightforward. My father has been a plumbing and HVAC contractor for fifty years. He sees no dire complexity in outfitting a structure of this type. In the case of the plumbing, for example, what exactly is the concern? That a few extra holes will have to be drilled in the framing to run pipes? If your plumber balks at this, I'd suggest getting a new one. If you are worried about paying someone to drill the holes, then do it yourself. With regard to insulation, you can use sprayed in foam, or use batts cut at an angle. Anyone can cut batts at an angle! A number of people who have built Geobarns have completely finished off the interiors and used the buildings as primary dwellings with all the essential amenities, not merely as sparsely equipped outbuildings.

As for the strength of the building method, perhaps an engineer could chime in. George has worked with engineers over the years to perfect his designs. The main strength of the building is, of course, in the posts and the beams. But everyone knows that diagonally bracing a rectangle or square makes it much more rigid than vertically bracing it. Therein lies the strength in the walls, which is why plywood sheathing is not needed and why the structure will resist "racking."

That might sound pedantic, but its merely intended to be informational.

Mr. Welsh said:
I've been following both of your build threads and I checked out the website, but I'm still confused by where exactly these cost savings are coming from. I'll take your word that you're using less material than typical 16" on center stud framing, but these savings will be offset by increased cost in labor for electrical/plumbing/HVAC/insulation...basically anything that goes in these walls is going to take longer to install. Also, you keep saying how strong this framing is...but the structure is post & beam. It doesn't seem to me that these little wall sections would make much difference in cost or strength, but all these angled cuts seem like they would take longer.

Without getting into your personal financials, can you paint a better picture of what the cost comparison is? I'm struggling to see the benefits of this method other than the beauty of the exposed framing.

TheShrine · Jan 16, 2009

Now that is structural integrity! :thumbup:

onemoretry · Jan 16, 2009

What bull said

speedracer · Jan 17, 2009

Love the post and beam look. I can't wait to see the end result!

Bull · Jan 21, 2009

How's the build coming along?

onemoretry · Jan 21, 2009

Sorry I haven't updated in a while. I have been sick, traveling, and any other excuse I can come up with. Work progresses and the framing is looking great. I have asked for a couple of small changes on door height, a barn door for getting things upstairs, change in stair position etc. George has handled all of my issues and the building is really taking shape. The crew has had to deal with some surprising weather for Maryland and is really troopering on.
From George:
We framed the two lower gables and a few of the lower eave bays during a bitterly cold day with gusty winds--had to retreat into the warm house a few times to recuperate and get our vitality back...also unloaded the roofing off the tractor trailer which showed up right after lunch.

tomorrow we hope to finish the lower level and nmove up top to complete the framing before we tackle to roof later this week...

So for the pictures...

Bull · Jan 22, 2009

Looking great!

Hope you feel better soon.

Jpfreak33 · Jan 22, 2009

I love this style of construction, I woudl feel bad covering the framing

onemoretry · Jan 22, 2009

Jpfreak33 said:
I love this style of construction, I woudl feel bad covering the framing

That is the exact debate I am going through now. I plan on using the upstairs of this building as a wood shop and downstairs for auto maintenance. For safety and warmth, I will need to do something, but it looks so cool, I am not sure what to do. Any thoughts on how to make it safe for welding, warm, and still see the diagonal framing? The only thing I can think of is blown in insulation, and then drywall inbetween each stud. I don't know if I have the constitution to do that for everyone.

I am up for thoughts...

cyclopsblown34 · Jan 22, 2009

What about asking George what he'd recommend? I'm certain he's had that same question before. I know I'd be in the same dilemma as you if I had him build me a shop. That work is just too nice to cover up.

onemoretry · Jan 22, 2009

So I have asked George some of the questions that have been posted here, and he has taken the time to write out a very detailed response that I will post here directly.
From George:
Hi One More Try--

As you know--I look forward eagerly to your posting the day's work on
the garage journal thread--and almost as much to the questions and
comments that the postings elicit. I love what I do and am always
willing to talk and teach about what I do.

There have been several questions and comments related to the design and
structure which I thought I might briefly respond to...so here goes:

Skyline--the floor systems are designed to be held by blocking and
toenailing and are actually as strong as using joists hangers. We have
some buildings designed and built for industrial and assembly loads with
this exact system rated at 150 psf and 100 psf respectively--along with
a number of garages with cars parked on these floors...I really dislike
joist hangers so I came up with a design to avoid them and which also
allows me to use lumber efficiently.

wrigh003--We put wrap--a product that used to be called Vortec and now
called Weathertech that uses a random dot pattern to shed water that
might seep into the wall area--right onto the framing--and then use
shiplap siding right over that. Most of our buildings are conditioned
and we have learned--sometimes throuhg painful mistakes, to flash and
wrap properly and provide a good barrier. The Weathertech is much
tougher than Tyvek/Typar and doe snot rip except in gale conditions.

Mr Welsh--Our cost savings come from three separate but connected
components of our building system. The first is that we have designed a
good product which is what we build--and while the buildings vary
aesthetically and in shape and scope (from under 1000sf to over 10,000
sf) they all contain the same design elements and use most of the same
signatures. They are also very versatile and modular--we can raise
portions of floor systems, free span any level including basements up to
34-36 feet, and rarely use engineered lumber. Because of this--we are
efficient and build approximately 500sf/week/three man crew. One More
Try's garage only took 12 days and it is 1728 sf--so while I pay my
subs/crews very well we save money because we are fast. second--I
guarantee a waste coefficient of 1/2 of 1%...unheard of in the
industry--so I am not wasting my or my client's money hauling away
waste. Third--i want ot keep my prices low because I believe I was
given a gift in inventing this building system and want to make it
available ot anyone who can afford a basic building. while some cheap
modular buildings may be slightly lower in price than we are--our
weathertight shells are about the same price as a traditional post and
beam frame. I love post and beam--but frankly--it has priced itself
right out of the normal market. While I build for plenty of well to do
people--I am prouder that I build for plenty of
blue collar working people like myself whom I make sure can afford what
I offer--often by hiring them to work with us and drop their costs
accordingly.

Most of our buildings now are fully conditioned and while some of the
trades may whine a little on occasion--most of them love the structures
and have no trouble wiring and plumbing. I have somewhere around 90
buildings up and most of them have utilities--including a public school,
lots f houses, and a significant number of commercial structures. as
you know--it is difficult at time sot be innovative--because the entire
industry seems to revolve around 4'x8' plywood and sheetrock--so
sometimes it takes some risk and willingness to rock the boat to break
out of that inertia.

Sharpshooter--the diagonal studs actually do provide more lateral
stability (anti-racking) than even the post and beam framing. I have
quite a few buildings in hurricane country and they have all been
stamped by engineers who agree they have enormous stability. If you
look at bridges they all pretty much use triangles as a basis for their
trusses--other than long suspension bridges of course.

I am sure I have only addressed a portion of the questions that have
been raised but this is a start. Thaks for every one's interest.

george

onemoretry · Jan 22, 2009

And for today's update. I am still out of town, so will only add George's comments and pictures.
From George:
We had a great day today with much better weather--as in warmer with
little or no wind. We completed the lower eave framing and the upper
eave framing as well--leaving only the upper gables remaining
which--alas--will have to wait until Saturday since we have slated
tomorrow to do the roof.

Things went smoothly today although we had to use our friendly physics
to lever up the upper beam to squeeze in the transoms over the higher
floor....but it worked

What a blessing to enjoy such wonderful weather--tomorrow it is supposed
to hit the low 50's with no chance of precipitation....our kind of day
for roofing....and most other tasks as well.

george

onemoretry · Jan 23, 2009

I finally made it home today and found the roof on. The building really looks fantastic, and I am getting pretty excited to see the finished product.

From George:
We had another amazing day today--getting the roof on in just over three
hours, and then putting on the ridgecap and cutting out the rafters and
adding headers for the (large) cupola opening. In speaking with our
client and noting his enthusiasm for the trees that embrace the cupola
view--it is clear we will be making that into a really tricked out
little room where he can admire the back 40 anytime....

We are grateful for his "better half" lifting the panels up to us with a
neighbor this morning and making this efficient and safe day
possible...it really could not have gone better.

george

checkthisout · Jan 24, 2009

Those are two beautiful barns, you should be very proud.

The floor assembly looks rock solid like it wouldn't "Bounce" at all. Would that be a good assumption?

I like the second one better because it's bigger! How big is it exactly?

Jpfreak33 · Jan 24, 2009

onemoretry said:

To bad they don't make clear siding!! :bounce:

I wish I lived somewhere where I could have a Geobarn with no interior or exterior wall coverings. These builds are true works of art. I wonder if they could build a Bungalow style home :headscrat

Great pics keep them coming :beer:

Bull · Jan 24, 2009

Onemoretry, I am curious to know what your plans are for the large, tricked out cupola that George mentions. I was obsessed with the idea of a cupola, too. Mine is small, but has a seat and is a a great place to sit with a beer and just watch the world go by.

Fire House and Garage part II

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