First "Machine": Free Horizontal Mill

classicJackets · Feb 17, 2015

Hey guys,
I posted up a "help identify" over in the fabrication thread before going to get this today, but I finally got it loaded up and almost set in a new place.
Got it for free on Craigslist.

Anyway, I've never owned any sort of machinery before so this is a major first for me. I'll start with pictures.

(friend for size reference in the back, machine's about 5' tall)

There was a Vice that I was able to get for free as well:

Loading this damn thing took us about 2 hours to move it 150 feet. Gotta weigh 600 pounds. Had to scoot over some mud and up a hill and onto some grass before loading it into the bed of a pickup truck. The engine hoist poured out fluid as soon as we finished and loaded up, so I'm not sure how we'll get it out of the truck bet yet. Took 4 of us and a driver to get it loaded, precariously :shocking:

So... I'll probably hop on over to Practical Machinist before long to figure out what I've got and what I'm missing. It may take me a little while but I would like to see this as a running mill again. Both a good thing and a bad thing: The guy who was there before (and took the vertical metal bandsaw :tantrum2:

, also for free) partially disassembled the mill to where it is now. I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing or how to make this goal happen other than lots of research and advice from people who have done similar. I may be in over my head, but I'm excited to learn as much as possible and hopefully save an old machine (for FREE!) If anybody knows what possible date range this could be from, I would love to know.

As I said, expect slow progress. Have to work around school...
And, as came up in the original "identify" thread, if you or your workplace have extra cutters for this piece, feel free to have me pay to ship them here

Doug

classicJackets · Feb 17, 2015

Scimonetti said:
Can't beat the price on those two! What shape is the compound table in? I've never used a mill or anything but from what I've seen they can be very useful with the right setup.

As for being in over your head, that's what they call learnin'

The table has been upside down and pretty well takes 2 people to flip upright (heavy!) But other than old, the machine seems to be in pretty good shape, I think.

longlivepunk · Feb 17, 2015

I'll see if I can rescure some of those old slitting saws and involute cutters and such. Not sure the shipping would be worth it, though. What size is the arbor?

classicJackets · Feb 17, 2015

^That's fair. Just realized you're a looong way up there, haha. Not even sure. I'll try to get out and measure tonight but I don't have much better than a tape measure or maybe calipers here.

A_Pmech · Feb 18, 2015

That should be a good first project for you! I hope you got all the parts! Make sure to update the thread as you fix it!

classicJackets · Feb 18, 2015

^ Thanks!
I'm antsy tonight and went out and moved the table out of the truck. Had to see what shape it was in. It also looks great (to my untrained eye)! Needs some cleaning. Apparently the guy was a hoarder, and both of the items I managed to get "seemed" almost unused, just very dirty. I guess we'll see.

Doug

LXCam · Feb 18, 2015

Holy **** have you got a project now. Congrats on the new toy, but you're gonna learn that free is gonna cost you dearly

Fretters · Feb 18, 2015

You got that for the best price possible.

Nice find. That will be a very good, and probably lengthy, learning project, but one which is well worth putting some time and effort into. Just remember to not put anything abrasive to use on cleaning the machined surfaces. Elbow grease and subtlety alone.

schor · Feb 18, 2015

Nice score!

larry_g · Feb 18, 2015

Good score. I'm going to give a bit of advise here. First is to take NO abrasives to the ways to clean them up. The ways if the machine are where the precision is so if you grind or damage them then your precision goes down the drain. Second is to treat the leadscrews and arbor with kid hands, ****** them and your out big money. Third is I would suggest that you remove the arbor soon to prevent damage to it. It is probably stuck and if so I 'll give you a method to remove it without beating things to death.

Seeing that table setting like it is in the picture above I know it is on the ways and not doing them any good. Though this is a heavy bit of iron it can be easily damaged.

Good luck on your adventure. My latest adventure in a machine is here, http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273996 . Not exactly the same machine but the concepts are.

lg
no neat sig line

bluebolt · Feb 18, 2015

You **** for the free Record!

Nele · Feb 18, 2015

Lucky dog!

nine4gmc · Feb 18, 2015

Can't beat free but dang that's going to be a learning experience that will cost you in the end!

classicJackets · Feb 18, 2015

Yep, nine I'm sure I'll have to put a little money into it. As long as everything necessary to make it work is there, then that's okay. However, some research shows that Diamond is on the "much less common" scale of older machines, so if almost any parts are missing i'll pretty much end up parting this to make/use as some cool pieces, I guess. My fear is that the guy who broke it apart took some of the pieces with him to who knows where.

zkling · Feb 18, 2015

nine4gmc said:
Can't beat free but dang that's going to be a learning experience that will cost you in the end!

Some of my most expensive projects have started out with a free item.

I'm now older and slightly wiser.

classicJackets, I'd start by laying everything out to see what all you are really missing or is damaged vs what you need to get the machine running. The fact that someone else removed the knee is a little worry some. Hopefully the gibb (if equipped) is still there.

classicJackets said:
My fear is that the guy who broke it apart took some of the pieces with him to who knows where.

Very valid concern. It's one thing to reproduce a worn part, but producing a missing part, that is uncommon in the first place; well that takes some thought and experimentation.

classicJackets · Feb 19, 2015

^That thought and experimentation is slightly unlikely to happen. I dug around on practical machinist and found that I have the Diamond Tools Co. M-26 model.

Attached are some pictures of a complete example. Just makes me realize how much I'm missing, and wonder how complete the machine was before the other person took some.
Doug

Guster · Feb 20, 2015

classicJackets said:
^That thought and experimentation is slightly unlikely to happen. I dug around on practical machinist and found that I have the Diamond Tools Co. M-26 model.

Attached are some pictures of a complete example. Just makes me realize how much I'm missing, and wonder how complete the machine was before the other person took some.
Doug

Great. Important part achieved. Identity, reference photos and other people to talk to about it.

This bits I don't see :
* Vertical head - makes the machine much more versatile though often just an optional extra on most of these.
* End plate on the table that holds the end of the table feed screw - maybe just elsewhere and just not in the pictures.
* Knee handles or handwheels - maybe just elsewhere and just not in the pictures.
* Table feed - nice but not the end of the world - most guys replace them with small geared motors anyway.
* Belt tensioner levers - those will be necessary but easily made
* The variable drive speed adjusting handwheel on the base - again easily sourced as it looks like the the rest of the mechanism is still there.

Otherwise the real important stuff seem to be there... and nothing missing that cannot be made or bought. Even the vertical head can be made if needed.

longlivepunk · Feb 20, 2015

Edit:
Idiocy deleted.

nine4gmc · Feb 20, 2015

Longlivepunk, You are looking at the one he posted as an example of what his should look like, not what his actually looks like which is pictured in the first post.

longlivepunk · Feb 20, 2015

Haha wow, this head-cold has me more messed up than I thought. Sorry.

Fretters · Feb 21, 2015

Guster said:
Great. Important part achieved. Identity, reference photos and other people to talk to about it.

This bits I don't see :

[...snipped...]

Otherwise the real important stuff seem to be there... and nothing missing that cannot be made or bought. Even the vertical head can be made if needed.

If that's all that's astray, doesn't sound like a big problem. I've literally bought complete units which were less complete.

That sounds like it's just in good project territory, with a few bits of creativity required.

classicJackets · Feb 21, 2015

I'll have to look back at this again later as I've had a drink.or two tonight, but I may have sourced a vertical head in Arkansas. As you mentioned, a lot of the othwr stuff should be easily replicable or something I can live without. The link from pictures I found included the username of the buyer, so I could ask for any important/ necessary measurements. I'm still banking on the guy who was.giving away these pieces putting me in touch with the person who should.have whatever's missing.
Thanks for your input!
Doug

classicJackets · Mar 8, 2015

Alright, I'm going to bring this back as I start making decisions about what to do next.

-How do I clean the ways? I know it was said to use a non abrasive and if I recall I read somewhere on here that 0000 Steel Wool is non abrasive?
-I plan on wiring the motor to a switch and 240V power. Does anybody have recommendations for a good, reasonably priced switch for that?
-What the heck is this, and could it originally have been part of this machine?

And the backside of the shaft:

Here's a few shots of the motor.
FacePlate

Wiring:

This setup makes me think it's not an original motor:

Anyway, I'll post up more pictures soon of the other pieces that I do have before I ask (again) what is critical that seems to be missing. Once I can determine if the motor is working or not I'll make a decision on where to go from there. It would cost me $250 plus freight from Arkansas to get a vertical head, which I'm fine with IF the majority of mechanicals are there.
Doug

justanengineer · Mar 8, 2015

I typically clean ways starting with kitchen paper towels + WD40, then if I'm having issues beyond that I step up to Brakleen, then green scotchbrite. When you get to scotchbrite you need to make sure after to wipe everything VERY carefully afterward with paper towels and WD bc scotchbrite has been known to leave grit behind. If there is a lot of caked on grease/**** and the machine is more reminiscent of an antique tractor, I'll also very lightly use a scraper before anything else.

I cant tell from squinting at tiny pics, but I suspect the lil motor is a coolant pump, never encountered one of that make of mill in person so cannot say if its original. As for the spindle drive, mills arent too picky regarding motors and it sounds like youre a hobbyist w/his first so I'd try to save whatever motors are there, clean it up, and start making chips.

Best of luck.

classicJackets · Mar 8, 2015

Justanengineer, I'll take some more shots tomorrow when It's light out and I can capture the whole thing, but that would make sense.. Thanks for the help with the ways! They seem to be in good shape and aren't cruddy or anything, I just don't want to mess them up in an attempt to make them better.
Doug

Outlawmws · Mar 9, 2015

Keep the green scotchbright OFF the ways! :wtf:

Use any solvent you want/or are comfortable with then ID what you still need to deal with, and if it is rust, gunk or physical damage. Rust pits, if not deep you can work with. Dings and gouges are a separate issue; take good pics and get advise from people that know how to restore ways property. This could by simple stoning of the high spots or more elaborate efforts. DON'T BE IN A RUSH! Get advise first. but sift it...

DocsMachine · Mar 9, 2015

[cracks knuckles]

classicJackets said:
How do I clean the ways? I know it was said to use a non abrasive and if I recall I read somewhere on here that 0000 Steel Wool is non abrasive?

-Steel wool is simply a very mild abrasive.

Now, for cleaning, there's nothing at all wrong with Scotchbrite and WD-40, but only on the nonprecision surfaces. Like the side faces of the table, crank handles, dials, etc. What I do is snip some Scotchbrite, usually the green stuff, into small, maybe 2" squares. Hose an area with WD, scrub, wipe, move on.

For worn precision surfaces (as in, the table ways, saddle ways, etc.) the Scotchbrite doesn't remove or damage much. There's no reason not to to use it, if the surfaces are already scarred.

Do NOT use power tools. No wire wheels, no Roloc pads, no nothing. On the non-machined surfaces though, have at it- I used a pneumatic needle scaler to clean all the old paint off my big 16" lathe, but only on the unmachined parts of the casting.

On any precision surface that's still in good condition, you need to be more careful- here, I prefer some Naval Jelly and 0000 steel wool. Wear gloves, of course, and work small areas at a time. Lay out the jelly, let it work, scrub, lay out a bit more, scrub, etc. Then rinse thoroughly and immediately oil the new surface.

What the heck is this, and could it originally have been part of this machine?

-That's a coolant pump, and yes, it could indeed have been factory. Doesn't mean it was, but it could have been. Pop it out and clean it up. Or maybe see if it runs before wasting time on it.

And the backside of the shaft:

-That's a centripetal pump.

This setup makes me think it's not an original motor:

-I'm not familiar with that brand of machine, but that's a fairly common Reeves type drive, a variable speed assembly. The two spacers might simply have been to adapt a different length belt. The machine almost certainly originally had a 3-phase motor, and somebody at some point swapped in the single-phase. They may have needed to alter the spacing slightly as part of the conversion.

Doc.

classicJackets · Mar 9, 2015

Docs, Thanks for your reply! That's awesome info, all around.
I got excited/antsy so I went out and snapped some pictures of the ways (that's what these are, right??

)
Circle and detail are around the only "damage I could find, profiled in next pic

Here's the ones on the machine..

All the other pieces I have to go with..

I like this sticker..

Backside of the mill..

Thanks all for the continual info.

justanengineer · Mar 9, 2015

Outlawmws said:
Keep the green scotchbright OFF the ways!

Use any solvent you want/or are comfortable with then ID what you still need to deal with, and if it is rust, gunk or physical damage. Rust pits, if not deep you can work with. Dings and gouges are a separate issue; take good pics and get advise from people that know how to restore ways property. This could by simple stoning of the high spots or more elaborate efforts. DON'T BE IN A RUSH! Get advise first. but sift it...

Lol as usual, you said it.

I's a-shorely d'ohn no wat I's a talkin bout bc I's a cudn't ta dun dis!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DocsMachine · Mar 9, 2015

classicJackets said:
Docs, Thanks for your reply! That's awesome info, all around.

-Thanks. I have some experience rebuilding machines, and I sure don't mind helping others save old iron.

I got excited/antsy so I went out and snapped some pictures of the ways (that's what these are, right?? )

-Yep. Machine "ways" are the surfaces that slide against one another. The carriage of the lathe slides on the "ways" on the bed of the lathe. The table of a mill slides on the "ways" on the saddle of the mill. The mill "knee" raises and lowers on ways, the compound of the lathe moves on ways, and so on.

Circle and detail are around the only "damage I could find, profiled in next pic

-It's hard to tell from your photo, but that may not be "damage". It could be simply a void in the casting, revealed when the dovetail ways were originally machined.

Now, it's also hard to tell, but it looks like you may still have quite a bit of "flaking" on those ways- that's the 'frosted' pattern left when the parts were first scraped (fitted) together. In that case, you're going to want to be careful on those surfaces- go with the Naval Jelly and fine steel wool, and work small areas at a time.

The jelly removes the rust chemically, the steel wool just helps scrub the stubborn stuff.

If that is a spot of damage, you'll want to very gently "stone" around it- use a small piece of oil stone, like you'd use for sharpening knives. The finer the grit the better. Just apply some WD-40, and gently scrub the stone over the nick or dent. You'll be able to feel the stone 'grab' the raised areas, if any, and cut them down to the the same level as the rest of the surrounding precision surface.

Don't try to polish the whole area, just stone 'til you can't feel any 'edge' to the nick.

Doc.

A_Pmech · Mar 9, 2015

Regarding Scotch Brite, I challenge anyone to remove one square inch of cast iron a ten-thousandth deep with a maroon hand pad.

It takes an obscene amount of effort. So much so, that the effort alone is a suitable safeguard against damaging the geometry of most way surfaces.

classicJackets · Sep 1, 2015

I'm going to bump this back up in hopes to be held accountable for some progress in the next 3 months

. Pretty much haven't touched it since I posted this, but I'm now getting started. Plan to get the motor tested (somehow) and hopefully figure out some wiring for it in the next few weeks and then I will delve into some more. Began taking the way/table assembly apart last night. Really wishing I had a good workbench here, but i'll get there eventually..

pendragon1998 · Sep 1, 2015

Looking forward to your restoration thread, but I have to say, if you don't have a work bench, you should get one put together before you worry about restoring a mill. There's nothing worse than working on the floor.

classicJackets · Sep 1, 2015

I have a "workbench", but i share a house with 30 other guys (yay college) and tend to be cautious leaving too much on it at a time. Learned that one the hard way. Also have a mobile cart that I'm using as a workbench for an engine build/rebuild learning experience ha. It's also a little ways away from the mill itself, which sits under a tarp out of the way.

Jawn · Sep 1, 2015

You ****.

Cool finds, both the vise and the mill. Good luck fixin' it up.

My Old Tools · Sep 2, 2015

You can use a razor blade at an angle to remove rust without damaging the ways.

First "Machine": Free Horizontal Mill

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