Neglected century barn is becoming my workshop and garage

Techie1961 · Mar 9, 2015

I have been wanting some sort of a shop for a while since the one that I have (a 40' x 60' pole barn with a big open door) is tough to do work in. The lighting is bad, the soffits are open, there is a huge opening (about 14' x 14') and the floor is in bad shape and tends to flood. I have a rental construction trailer on the property that I use for anything "shop" like such as welding etc. I was going to section off a 18' x 40' section (about 700' sq. with wall thickness) and close it in but the poles are rotten at the bases. So I am changing directions a bit.

I have two barns on the property, the pole barn and a century barn that was likely built around the same time as the house in 1879. We have a guest house on the property that is an income house and the renters have been using the century barn to store some stuff. I have asked them to remove their stuff in two weeks and they are moving out of the house in a couple of months.

My dream for the century barn has always been to convert the stable portion (area to the right with sliding door) to a garage for cars and my John Deere tractors and the tack room area to a shop. The tack room is 753' sq. inside the stone walls and will be a bit smaller once some walls are in. This is what it looks like inside.

I think that the ceiling is about 10' and the floor is dirt and mostly broken up concrete. I haven't ever done any framing so this is a bit of a stretch for me. I am hoping that I can get some pointers from you folks. Like how to finish the ceiling.

I am on a really tight budget for this. I had back surgery about a year ago and since I own my own business, income suffered a lot. I need a shop though and need to get the rental trailer gone so this makes sense. A bit at a time and hopefully no rework.

So, first thing will be some concrete for a floor. I might try to put some PEX in to use for heat later. Any pointers are appreciated. :beer:

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

It's been a slow progression on the work since a third back surgery in April slowed me down for a while. I got back to working on things a few weeks ago when my wife's uncle came over with some of his toys and helped clear out the busted up concrete that was in the shop area. Some of the stones came out of the lower corner of the door but they were loose so I wan't too worried. He needed some depth to get the little excavator inside so he had to go down a bit first.

Once he was inside, he was able to push out all of the bits to the Bobcat on the outside.

After he was done, I could get my JD 455 in there with a blade on it and level it out. There were still some areas with concrete that got missed but I was able to push them outside with the blade.

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Once the ground was leveled in the shop area, I was able to start to put in some gravel. Luckily my wife's uncle's yard is across the street and he told me to help myself to some of the gravel. I did about 35 trips back and forth but put down about 4 inches. Should be enough for the 4-5" of concrete that I want to have in there.

I'm a little slow on the controls as I had the camera in my right hand and the hydraulics use the same hand.

I am not sure what to do with the center post and beam. I am thinking about putting in an I-Beam under it so it gives me a place to hoist stuff as well. Problem is that it will require a post at either end. I'm also thinking about putting a beam above the ceiling and dropping saddles down to the old beam.

This is where I need help. Opinions are welcome. There's too much dry rot in the beam to remove the post comfortably but I would like it out of there so I can do a nice pour on the concrete.

You can see here that there was a helper beam put in.

vekster · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Nice start neighbour (from a couple hours west)
I dont want to offer any opionions on beams because thats not my my area of expertise.
However, I love old barns and thats going to be a pretty cool shop with lots of charactor

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

After I got the gravel laid in the shop area, I was able to turn my attention to the garage portion. I have been waiting to hear from help on the concrete pour so I had nothing to do but wait.

The garage was previously stables and they were all still there. On the right, you can see the stables that were there and on the left, I have already cut out all of them.

They were standing stalls on the one side and the ones that are shown are box stalls. I thought it wasn't going to be too bad to clear it all out but man was I wrong.

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

vekster said:
Nice start neighbour (from a couple hours west)
I dont want to offer any opionions on beams because thats not my my area of expertise.
However, I love old barns and thats going to be a pretty cool shop with lots of charactor

Thanks Vekster. I love old stuff as well and am really excited about doing this. Will take a while but will be fun as well.

Update: a load of gravel just showed up and I need to get at it. :thumbup:

bobemmerich · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Nice! Love to see old buildings saved instead of destroyed! That's one unique structure you have there. The stone will hold heat well, so once you get a heat source, should be no problem.

CNGsaves · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

+1 that you're going to have AWESOME Character in that shop !! :thumbup:

LOVE the stone walls and beam ceiling. I'd put in steel I-Beam where you have the failing wood one . . . . but . . . "skin" the steel one with rustic wood so you keep the character of the shop going. Plan a spot for 2 post lift and beef up concrete floor in that area (plus route pex radiant pipes around those spots).

In Canada, definitely recommend radiant heat in the concrete floor. For the ceiling insulation, recommend you actually do it on TOP SIDE, rather than underside, so you can keep that awesome beam look. Good luck.

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

CNGsaves said:
For the ceiling insulation, recommend you actually do it on TOP SIDE, rather than underside, so you can keep that awesome beam look. Good luck.

That's an amazing idea that I didn't think about putting the insulation on the top side. I don't plan on using the upper portion at all. :thumbup:

I had thought of filling the beams with spray foam but now I don't think so.

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

bobemmerich said:
Nice! Love to see old buildings saved instead of destroyed! That's one unique structure you have there. The stone will hold heat well, so once you get a heat source, should be no problem.

Thanks! Our house is stone as well and you're right about the heat. It does use a fair bit of fuel but considering that for a good portion of it there isn't any insulation, it does well.

Techie1961 · Aug 10, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Over the last couple of weeks, I removed the extra material from the garage side. When I started to strip out the stables, I thought that it was a dirt floor in there. I found out though that there was a busted up concrete floor too. That added a lot of work since instead of having my wife's uncle over with the heavy equipment me and my John Deere went at it. It wasn't able to lift the pieces of concrete so I pushed them out with the 54" blade.

Once I got all of the stuff that wasn't supposed to be in there, I leveled the dirt so that I could lay down some gravel. Every time that I thought I had all the old concrete out though, I found more.

Most of the posts that were used for either stalls or beam supports I was able to remove with a chain falls and beam gripper. There were a couple that didn't have a solid enough beam above them. I found out that my bucket scoop that I built was usable as a pincher grip too. When closed over the post, I was able to walk them up out of the holes.

Techie1961 · Aug 11, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Last night the gravel showed up for the garage side. Unfortunately, it started to rain about the same time. Fortunately, I don't dissolve in the rain and neither does my tractor. Got soaked but it's all in there and leveled up. I used my new laser level in a hole to set a line around the walls for about 3" of concrete later on. I had to set it in a hole to get low enough.

matt_i · Aug 11, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

So here is what I would do. I'd put back a post wherever a post was previously. I'd support the center of each beam. Buy a couple of extra post-jacks, and place them about 2 ft apart of where you are going to want an I beam (I'd recommend a square tube or round pipe as they are much more rigid as a column (the Iyy of an I-beam is very low compared to the Ixx if you want to be engineering-technical).

Dig lower than the floor and pour with quick crete a footing for the post 24" square x 10" thick. 1/2" Rebar bent in a square. Let concrete cure for 1-2 weeks.

Now place the permanent post on the new footing and get it in place to bear loads. Shim up with steel plates if getting the proper height angled into place is too tough.

Then, you are ready to pour the concrete floor. Personally I like a 1/2" rebar grid tied 16-24" on center, and set on 2" chairs, min of 5" thick, but that's pretty stout, designed for heavy machinery. You could get away with 1/8" welded wire mesh and a 4" minimum for the lightweight garden tractors.

I would spend time fixing the door opening in the rock/masonry wall that got broken out by the excavator bucket. My opinion is based on the way its unsupported above, its just a matter of time until you have more and more and more failures, which will eventually compromise the wall.

Techie1961 · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

matt_i said:
So here is what I would do. I'd put back a post wherever a post was previously. I'd support the center of each beam. Buy a couple of extra post-jacks, and place them about 2 ft apart of where you are going to want an I beam (I'd recommend a square tube or round pipe as they are much more rigid as a column (the Iyy of an I-beam is very low compared to the Ixx if you want to be engineering-technical).

Dig lower than the floor and pour with quick crete a footing for the post 24" square x 10" thick. 1/2" Rebar bent in a square. Let concrete cure for 1-2 weeks.

Now place the permanent post on the new footing and get it in place to bear loads. Shim up with steel plates if getting the proper height angled into place is too tough.

Then, you are ready to pour the concrete floor. Personally I like a 1/2" rebar grid tied 16-24" on center, and set on 2" chairs, min of 5" thick, but that's pretty stout, designed for heavy machinery. You could get away with 1/8" welded wire mesh and a 4" minimum for the lightweight garden tractors.

I would spend time fixing the door opening in the rock/masonry wall that got broken out by the excavator bucket. My opinion is based on the way its unsupported above, its just a matter of time until you have more and more and more failures, which will eventually compromise the wall.

Thanks Matt, you put some thought into this and I appreciate it. I think I would have liked to have an open floor but I might have to go with a center post due to funds. There's just something about a completely unimpeded open floor.

Once I get the concrete in, I will be moving in a medium sized lathe and a First milling machine (Bridgeport copy) as well as my welder, brake, etc. Considering that I would also like to put in PEX tubing, should I be thicker than 4-5"? My thoughts are that this will be enough.

Techie1961 · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

After getting the gravel in on Monday night, I was able to drag my roller around a to compress the floor a bit and level it up nicer. It's not as compacted as I would like but seems to be okay for now. I will have to start on the other stuff like windows, doors, roof leaks before winter hits but I did move in my John Deere stuff.

vekster · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Nice JD lineup!
Why so many?

Barns coming along nicely.

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matt_i · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

I would also rent a vibratory plate compactor to help settle the gravel and soil underneath, before you pour any concrete. the weighted roller is good but the vibration is better.

Machine tools like stable-humidity environments, so anything you can do to minimize air changes and temp stability is going to help, plus whatever HVAC you have planned to assist.

Techie1961 · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

vekster said:
Nice JD lineup!
Why so many?

Barns coming along nicely.

Thanks man, on both comments. Re the JDs, I guess that I kind of got carried away. :evil:

Truth be told though, I have a knack for finding things online in listings like Kijiji and there are some real stories in that collection. I used to be able to do a solid day's work but since my back injury from a car accident and the three surgeries, I can't. In order to still bust my *** getting things done, I've had to automate.

One of the 455s has about 400 lbs. on the back with tru powers and that's my excavating/plowing machine. The other 455 has a mulching deck on it with a 3PH and forks. The 445 is my mowing machine and the 425 is the only 2 wheel steer and has chains on it. I use it for the sweeper.

Since they either have weights, front PTO shaft, mower decks, different tires, etc. I can get things done without having to pull a deck, put on a PTO shaft, move weights and so on.

Probably not the short answer that you were looking for but there you go. :bounce:

Techie1961 · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

matt_i said:
I would also rent a vibratory plate compactor to help settle the gravel and soil underneath, before you pour any concrete. the weighted roller is good but the vibration is better.

Machine tools like stable-humidity environments, so anything you can do to minimize air changes and temp stability is going to help, plus whatever HVAC you have planned to assist.

Thanks Matt... again. I was thinking about compacting it better when I was looking at it today. Lots of air in it. Do you really think it's worth it?

joseph.a.owens.9 · Aug 12, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

If you want a long lasting slab that won't crack I'd recommend you compact it. If you don't the dirt and rock under it will just settle eventually leading to a broken uneven slab.

Techie1961 · Aug 14, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

joseph.a.owens.9 said:
If you want a long lasting slab that won't crack I'd recommend you compact it. If you don't the dirt and rock under it will just settle eventually leading to a broken uneven slab.

Thanks for the help Joseph. Another question for the ones with knowledge. The barn is a rock wall with mortar, on I believe, a bed of rocks. We get some fairly deep frost here and last winter was one of the worst. I would like to put PEX in the shop portion and maybe the garage portion as well. I know the shop portion will be heated but not necessarily the garage portion. The shop is 28x26 and the garage is quite a bit larger (sorry but I haven't measured it yet) at maybe 35x35 or a bit larger.

Should I pour the concrete all the way to the walls or should I isolate it from the walls. Since the walls are coarse rocks (not smooth) freezing and thawing will have a different force applied to the walls versus the floors and therefore poured to the wall it will grip it. Add to that, the heating in the shop area and possible freezing if the heat is off or power goes out. Thoughts? :dunno:

I don't want the floor to start breaking up a barn that has been standing for over a hundred years.

vekster · Aug 14, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

First I will say "I am not an expert"
With that being said I would for sure isolate the slab from the walls. The walls may move a lot depending on there footing, if any at all.
You don't want a moving wall to crack your new floor or vice versa.

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Bib Overalls · Aug 14, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

You need to be thinking about ridged foam insulation under your concrete. Critical if you plan on using radiant in slab (PEX) heat.

If you are not going to use the upper story you have a lot of room for an engineered truss that can span the distance and hold up the ceiling. Spray foam on top and you will be snug as a bug in a rug.

joseph.a.owens.9 · Aug 15, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

I personally would not tie them together. As vekster said you don't want a crack in the slab to move to the wall or the other way around. As far as the PEX I have never messed with it.

Techie1961 · Aug 21, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Sorry for the delay, it's been one of those weeks. Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, it's appreciated.

I am definitely going to isolate the walls and floor and I think that I'm going to have to put in a center post for support on the old beam. I took out the I-beam that was there and have some supports in it for now. The beam is in rough shape. I'll post some photos tomorrow once the dust settles in there. Once I got the supports in, I did the ole TIMBER thing with the existing stuff. I suppose the best would be an I beam across the inner span under the wood beam.

Techie1961 · Aug 22, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

These are some photos of the support changes that I made. I still have to figure out how to do some of the repairs as well as the final decision on a center support column or not. To remove the old columns, I had to try to get the beam back up into position. I used my new 5 ton Simplex to push it up and then once the one sub-beam was also supported, I could knock the old stuff over and drag it out.

After getting the old stuff out of the way, I leveled out the gravel again and then had a good look at the rot and damage to the beams. This is the east side of the beam with the I-beam that was there removed. There is one beam that needed support and wasn't held up by the other beam.

These are closeups of the rotted and bug eaten areas. going from left to right of the above photo.

The other side of the main beam is in nice shape.

And how it looks now.

Now the questions to those that might have some barn repair experience. Since I won't be using the upper area for much more than the occasional inspection and to put down some insulation, I don't want to do a repair that will allow me to store tons of hay bails up there. I am thinking of cleaning some of the rot on the east side and putting in a sister beam to support the sub-beams. Should this be attached with threaded rods going horizontally across to tie it in? I figure If I can duplicate the side profile where the wood is gone, I can close it off and restore the support to them.

The next thing I am thinking is to put in a foundation central to the beam and then one support column. Considering the condition, should I do more than that?

Techie1961 · Sep 3, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

A bit of a progress report. I have a pro helping me out with the concrete so today we did some prepping. There wasn't enough gravel for the 9 cu. meters that are showing up in the morning so more was added. I have opted out of the PEX floor heating due to timing and limited funds but I think it will be okay. I'm going to keep it above freezing in the winter and picked up a woodstove from a friend this weekend. Always the possibility of gas heating once we get gas at our address later this year.

I figured out a way to support the weak beam for the concrete pour. I wrapped a chain through both windows and put in a piece of square steel tubing. A post and bit of work and I have a clear floor. Once the concrete is in, I will be putting in some temporary support posts and then maybe next year, the proper supports.

I can't wait to see concrete tomorrow morning. :drool:

yaidunno · Sep 3, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Neat looking barn! Glad to see it being saved and re purposed. The collection of JD tractors is nice as well. 425 AWS owner myself. Great machines.

Looking forward to seeing how it looks with the floor in. Keep the photos coming.

Techie1961 · Sep 4, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

The concrete showed up and wow, did it come out nice. :thumbup:

This guy really knew what he was doing. The guy delivering it says he has never seen someone do a floor that size by himself and in such short time and this guy was 65.

It was at least 5" and in some areas a bit thicker. Total of 9 meters perfectly level and no waste. I am now an expert in watching concrete being done and I can say first hand that you should hire a pro.

rburke65 · Sep 4, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Hey....great job. Love the old barn. Good for you.

rsnip988 · Sep 5, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Looks great! Keep up the awesome work, I love a good restoration!

Techie1961 · Sep 6, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Thanks guys, I'm really pleased with it. I did the saw cuts this morning. I was contemplating not doing them but everyone said it needs to be done. I did them as clean and straight as I could manage. Anyone know if they need to be filled with anything?

My sone gave me a hand... or should I say foot with it.

Techie1961 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

I did some cleaning up yesterday and today. There was still some old electrical in it as well as a lot of old wood in the upstairs portion. I tried to sort through for the good stuff but it was so hot today. A lot of it just got dumped out the side door. Bonfire time. :beer:

There is now a railway for my forklift as well. I tried just gravel but it wasn't working very well. I can't take a chance with losing my mill or lathe as I move it in.

I also put the post in it's final spot until I can put an I beam in under the whole length.

Outlander · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Fantastic thread. I really like seeing old buildings saved. My Dad built our house and I figure someone's Dad built the buildings we so often see torn down. Good for you to save it!

How do you plan to finish the walls? Doesn't seem right covering them all up, but you need benches and storage areas I am sure.

Keep up the good work, and keep those pictures flowing!

Techie1961 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Outlander said:
Fantastic thread. I really like seeing old buildings saved. My Dad built our house and I figure someone's Dad built the buildings we so often see torn down. Good for you to save it!

How do you plan to finish the walls? Doesn't seem right covering them all up, but you need benches and storage areas I am sure.

Keep up the good work, and keep those pictures flowing!

Thanks Outlander. :thumbup:

I am going to leave the stones exposed as well as the beams. I have a thread where I asked about the exposed stones and the consensus was to leave them exposed and not worry too much about insulation. I'm going to put some sort of insulation above the ceiling but haven't quite figured out what yet. Maybe blown but I worry about critters getting into it.

I am still trying to figure out the mounting of cabinets. I might put a couple wooden beams across that I can mount to. I'd like to keep a rustic feel to it and there's a lot of old wood that came out of it.

dfiler2 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

I really like old buildings, it's nice to see this one being saved and used. Looks great! You mentioned putting an I-beam under that center beam, have you considered putting the beam in the upstairs portion or are you planning to use that area for something else? I was also wondering about holding the cabinets from above. That is going to be a really 'feel good' work space.

Techie1961 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

So, I had a thought. A bit late since the concrete is already poured but not too late. I have been trying to figure out what to do with the main door since I want to have something wide enough to be useful. I always thought about widening it to the right and there was the issue with the lintel. I hadn't thought about going to the left though (no pun intended and I am definitely never going left :lol_hitti

) and removing the window. What do you guys think? This would allow me to put in an 8 foot door.

A sliding barn style door would be nice but how do you seal and insulate such a beast?

Techie1961 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

dfiler2 said:
I really like old buildings, it's nice to see this one being saved and used. Looks great! You mentioned putting an I-beam under that center beam, have you considered putting the beam in the upstairs portion or are you planning to use that area for something else? I was also wondering about holding the cabinets from above. That is going to be a really 'feel good' work space.

That was originally what I was thinking actually. I was going to lay an I beam above the existing wood beam and then drop saddles down to hold up the other beam. I kind of got rid of that idea since A, it didn't allow me to put in a trolley and B, it was more work and a longer beam (tough to install). I like the idea of hanging the cabinets though. Thanks. :thumbup:

Outlander · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Techie1961 said:
I'd like to keep a rustic feel to it and there's a lot of old wood that came out of it.

Re-purposing the old wood will make it even more spectacular :beer:

Techie1961 · Sep 7, 2015

Re: Time to build my shop and I am going to need some help

Outlander said:
Re-purposing the old wood will make it even more spectacular

I was thinking tonight as well that I need to make my workbenches from the old wood. I'm not much of a woodworker (tool and die by trade) and prefer to work in metal. There were a bunch of posts that I pulled from the other side that were stables that would make really nice legs for a bench. They are about 8x8 and some 6x6. Lots of planks for the top as well.

Neglected century barn is becoming my workshop and garage

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