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Bosch coming out with alternative to SawStop...

BikerDad

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It's just hitting the various tool sites. Bosch is coming out with a new jobsite saw, the ReaXX, which is supposed to provide the safety functionality of the SawStop without damaging/destroying the blade.

Bosch ReaXX Saw Preview

This is likely to shake up the stationary power tool market, especially if the tech is easier to adapt to other tools. Imagine a Bosch Glide CMS with this tech. I wonder who will be the first to license it? Some of the tech isn't directly relevant to other tools, but I can see having a sensing safety brake on a bandsaw as a good thing, ditto for a RAS. Methinks it would be a fine engineering project to figure out how to adapt this tech to a jointer. :headscrat
 
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Charles (in GA)

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I hope they are successful and that Saw Stop looses completely and goes out of business. Nothing against Saw Stop saws, its the tactics the owner has used to try to force his device on everyone that I don't like.

Charles
 
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BikerDad

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Well, there's a lot of SawStop owners out there, including A LOT of schools, that wouldn't want to see parts and support for their saws go away, so I can't share in your wish for the company to be destroyed by this development.
 

Zeke

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Should have been developed to find a way into more tools by now. Glad someone else is working on it. There's room for more. Anything that moves and cuts in any industry can use the technology. I know a woodworker who has activated the SawStop and he avoided an accident. The thing is, I have read a bit about the SawStop brand and aside from the obvious, it is not reviewed as that great a saw. If Bosch joins in and makes a saw that has accuracy and features, I'm going to get very interested. As I get older the mistakes are more frequent.

So far, I have 10 fingers, 10 toes, 2 eyes and half a brain.
 

Thumper68

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I hope they are successful and that Saw Stop looses completely and goes out of business. Nothing against Saw Stop saws, its the tactics the owner has used to try to force his device on everyone that I don't like.

Charles

Ditto

Well, there's a lot of SawStop owners out there, including A LOT of schools, that wouldn't want to see parts and support for their saws go away, so I can't share in your wish for the company to be destroyed by this development.

The parts and support wouldn't go away, one of the others would buy them out and then license to tech to anyone who would pay a reasonable price unlike the Saw Stop guy who is so concerned with our well being that he refused to license the tech with anyone else and then try and get laws passed that required his tech on all saws sold. Me thinks he is much more concerned with lining his pockets with gold than with the blood of children staining our shop floors.
 

neophyte

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Ditto



The parts and support wouldn't go away, one of the others would buy them out and then license to tech to anyone who would pay a reasonable price unlike the Saw Stop guy who is so concerned with our well being that he refused to license the tech with anyone else and then try and get laws passed that required his tech on all saws sold. Me thinks he is much more concerned with lining his pockets with gold than with the blood of children staining our shop floors.


He originally did try to license the technology, but no saw manufacturer wanted it.

My understanding from an old article was that he may have wanted a licensing fee based on the list retail price of the saws his patents were used in, and that that percentage was very high. I could have sworn I read somewhere that the percentage he wanted was somewhere near twenty percent, but I haven't been able to find the source again.

Anyway, after nobody would license the technology, he tried to get legislators in one state requiring the Sawstop technology for safety reasons. Thankfully that was voted down.

It was after the Ryobi lawsuit and his introduction of his own saws that he refused to license his patents.
 

Zeke

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Stephen Gass is the inventor and a patent lawyer with several of his own patents. He tried to force government mandates for his stop device and when that didn't work, he sued major manufacturers for conspiracy. The suit never went to trial.

Here in CA we have mandates that are pretty severe, so this is nothing new. I don't hate the guy and he is not the only one to work this way. Big corporations are much nastier.

Incidentally, I can't find any news release on the Bosch product.
 

jkwilson

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He travels around serving as an "expert witness" in saw injury cases, arguing that all saws without his technology are inherently unsafe. If he lost every dime he owned and had to spend the rest of his life scrubbing the streets of the French Quarter with his face it would be too easy on him.
 

ozyborn

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I far far prefer my safety guards. I physically can not reach the blade when the extensions are up. Plus it did not cost a small fortune for a mediocre saw. Nor do I get wrecked blades from their junk.
I despise the owner of Sawstop. Whining and complaining and suing because others will not use his product.
 

kythri

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4 generations of table saw users in my family, and everyone still has all their fingers (unless the worms got 'em).
 
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BikerDad

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Lot of haters here. Every review I've ever read of the SawStop saws themselves, without considering the safety technology, puts them on par or better than the equivalent Powermatic, General or Delta saw. The SawStop ICS is a better saw than the PM 66 or old last gen Unisaws, and is the equal of the PM2000. The new Unisaw has some superior features.

Downside to the saws as saws is Country of Origin (no longer much of a factor now that everybody except maybe General is making theirs in Asia), motor isn't a Baldor. Oh, that's pretty much it.

Are they as nice as European sliders? No, but like all other NA style cabinet saws, they don't cost nearly as much and the methods of work are different.

"The parts and support wouldn't go away, one of the others would buy them out and then license to tech to anyone who would pay a reasonable price "

Yeah, right. Tell that to anybody trying to get parts for a Delta machine. The stupidity that can happen when a company goes under / changes hands is beyond epic.

I've got no love for what the SawStop founder attempted, and I dearly hope that Bosch licenses their tech, but the unhinged idiocy of some of the responses is sad. :wtf:

Oh, and y'all can thank me for Bosch's move. I had been holding off for a couple of years on getting a SawStop, hoping somebody else would step up. A week and a half ago I finally got one.... thus opening the door. Knowing my luck, tomorrow Hammer will announce a new 79" slider with a third variation on blade safety tech and a super duper mobile base that lifts the machine 2", all for less than $5k. And it will come with a year supply of Cherry Coke. :dunno:
 

Mohawk Dave

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can someone explain how these machines "know" it is a finger (or a bratwurst). What kind of sensors? Can it get confused if you are using wet green wood?
 

neophyte

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can someone explain how these machines "know" it is a finger (or a bratwurst). What kind of sensors? Can it get confused if you are using wet green wood?

The Sawstop system can be accidentally tripped by green wood, high moisture content, staple or other metal, etc. The saws do allow the user to test the material while the saw isn't running to see if the material might accidentally trip the brake. You can then temporarily override the brake system for the wet material. This won't work if the problem is a hidden piece of metal within the material, or a spot of wood with a higher moisture content than the rest of the board.
 

Mohawk Dave

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right on...but what are the actual sensors and how do they do their magic? I don't understand how a sensor somewhere knows your finger occupied the same time and space as the carbide tip of the blade.
 

txvwnut

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When I first saw a sawstop saw, I thought it was a great idea. Then I saw how it destroyed itself to prevent a loss of limb and thought, impressive but I'm sure it could've been designed better. I see Bosch is in the preocess of doing that which is a good thing as more and more people get in to DIY projects that should really consider hiring someone to do it for them and not get near a tool of any type. That being said when I goto my table saw to do wahtever type of cut is needed, the first thing I do is consider the setup and how I am going to go about making the cut so I don't put myself in the way of the blade and also is/will there be the potential for kick back and do my best to prevent that too. I own an older Jet table saw and haven't gotten a finger in the blade yet, but have had a nasty kickback from it once.
 
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UncleJoe

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I have seen the SawStop up close and it looks like a good saw. More important to me is I personally know some woodworkers that are real craftsmen and they produce incredible furniture using this saw. That being said I love to safety concept and can't wait for some real competition in this area as we all know competition will make it more affordable and will push the manufacturers to make everything better.

As to SawStop's possibly questionable business practices, I have been around long enough to realize that they are not alone in all this. Pick any major manufacturer and I would bet we can find all sorts of things they have done that we would consider inappropriate. If we only bought tools from companies that were pure and honest in every business dealing then we would be using stones as hammers and chipping rocks to make our own knives.

I am in no way defending any practice that SawStop may have used, I am just saying you can't be certain that ...insert your favorite brand here... doesn't have similar tactics in their history.

I was surprised that Bosch doesn't have a video of the brake in action. The video if a saw blade stopping is always very impressive. I also liked the note that the Bosch can be reset in a few minutes and no blade damage.
 

rslaback

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He travels around serving as an "expert witness" in saw injury cases, arguing that all saws without his technology are inherently unsafe.

Aren't they? Would you make the argument that a new car produced without the technology or seatbelts, airbags or crumple zones was safe?

I can't condone his methods but I would agree that if a technology exists that can prevent table saw accidents and that technology is not being used as a cost savings measure (originally at least) that the saw is less safe than it can or responsibly should be.
 

PugetDude

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I can't condone his methods but I would agree that if a technology exists that can prevent table saw accidents and that technology is not being used as a cost savings measure (originally at least) that the saw is less safe than it can or responsibly should be... with SawStop technology required at gunpoint....


Fixed that for you. :thumbup:
 

Kracin

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Nonsense.

It's not "hating" to consider something unimpressive, undesirable and unnecessary.

i "hate" on guarding for large presses and other machinery all day.

a little bit of common sense and some training go a VERY long way. many many people make it through their lives without needing unnecessary guarding and extra little help here and there from killing themselves or maiming themselves.

you will always find a case where something doesn't happen as it should and causes a problem that was unexpected, ie like kickback and things like that. but the solution to a problem that exists may not be the solution to the right problem.

some people say that every single saw should have a saw stop to prevent people from cutting their fingers off, and other people say the first thing somebody should make is a pusher or a "finger" to assist in using a table saw to prevent this very thing, it doesn't damage the saw and it costs considerably less. but these days the solutions to problems come at the cost of marketing. it is much easier (believe it or not) to market that the solution to a problem is a high tech and expensive invention that does the same job as taking 2 seconds to consider what you are doing, and using a tool to accomplish the job safely.

i put the pushers and material holders in the same boat as other tools like material grabbers with suction cups and magnets. you NEVER stick your hand inside a die while the press is running and not blocked up, but some places insist on having guarding in place to prevent people from sticking their fingers in a place that they shouldn't. so instead of teaching people proper procedure and usage of heavy and dangerous machinery, they attempt to block off any and all dangers and avoid telling them how to operate machines safely.

in my opinion this causes more problems. i'm just waiting for someone to "demonstrate" their stop saw and see that a fluke caused it to malfunction and they chop their finger off (or hand). the same that i see guarding fail around the plant. and people doing extremely unsafe things because they were never told how to operate a machine without guards (or improperly installed or maintained guards, think the scenario of an old mexican woman putting her gloved hand inside a small area to pick small sheetmetal material out while its still turning, and the wheel that flips the brackets over looks like a cheese grater. and she keeps putting her hands in there while its running, one day its going to get caught because the supervisors refuse to write her up and explain it to her about reaching in areas while things are running. thats a whole other issue, but a real one).


all in all. the answer is not more safeties, the answer is more knowledge and better operating practices. i would like to add that i would rather be sure that what i am doing is safe, than question it after something happens. if i have to reach into a press or other operating area, i will stop it, lock it out, and block the ram up so it can't come down regardless of how safe i think it is because i pulled part of the master start circuit out to prevent it from running or to prevent the brake from disengaging (even though most are supposed to stay clamped all the time). just the same that if i am cutting wood, i am ensuring that the path for my hands is clear and my work area is not cluttered and i'm not going to trip, stumble, or fall into the blade while working. i would rather sacrifice the piece i'm working on cutting than cut my finger off.
 
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Sal Bandini

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I have seen the SawStop up close and it looks like a good saw. More important to me is I personally know some woodworkers that are real craftsmen and they produce incredible furniture using this saw. That being said I love to safety concept and can't wait for some real competition in this area as we all know competition will make it more affordable and will push the manufacturers to make everything better.

As to SawStop's possibly questionable business practices, I have been around long enough to realize that they are not alone in all this. Pick any major manufacturer and I would bet we can find all sorts of things they have done that we would consider inappropriate. If we only bought tools from companies that were pure and honest in every business dealing then we would be using stones as hammers and chipping rocks to make our own knives.

I am in no way defending any practice that SawStop may have used, I am just saying you can't be certain that ...insert your favorite brand here... doesn't have similar tactics in their history.

I was surprised that Bosch doesn't have a video of the brake in action. The video if a saw blade stopping is always very impressive. I also liked the note that the Bosch can be reset in a few minutes and no blade damage.

Great logic. Everyone else is doing it so what's the problem?
 

UncleJoe

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Great logic. Everyone else is doing it so what's the problem?

Look, I wish no one did this stuff but seriously if you said you were only going to purchase from honest companies what car could you drive. How many patent infringements are there when a car has some 30,000 parts. Did your car come from a manufacturer that screwed the guy that invented intermittent wipers, or just from the company that licensed the technology from the company that screwed the guy. That is just one example.

My point is simply this, business men have been screwing things over since the beginning of time. To say I won't do business with this company because the owner threatened to sue all the other manufacturers because they did not use his technology is short sighted at best.

I am all for someone standing on principle and not buying a product for principle reasons. I am just stating that if you apply that principle to everything you could not buy tools or cars or electronics or anything.

It is definitely not everyone else is doing it so whats the problem, I just found it curious that people hated this one guy; yet I would bet that if I looked in their garage they own several things produced by people that have screwed over people even worse.

Why single out SawStop? I have just come to a point where I accept the fact that stuff happens in business and I can not control it. Sometimes I decide to make a stand and not buy the product and sometimes I realize that the effort is futile and will not matter.

In the Table saw market alone I would bet you can not find one manufacture that has a "Clean" record and could match the standards of ethics that some in this forum are placing on SawStop. So what do you do. Use a handsaw?

I am just being practical that's all.
 

Stuey

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right on...but what are the actual sensors and how do they do their magic? I don't understand how a sensor somewhere knows your finger occupied the same time and space as the carbide tip of the blade.

How does a smartphone touchscreen know the difference between a finger and plastic pen? Capacitance!
 
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BikerDad

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I was surprised that Bosch doesn't have a video of the brake in action. The video if a saw blade stopping is always very impressive. I also liked the note that the Bosch can be reset in a few minutes and no blade damage.

I suspect that Bosch doesn't have the video out yet because THEIR official announcement is tomorrow. This is just the deliberately planned pre-announcement buzz.
 
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BikerDad

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Nonsense.

It's not "hating" to consider something unimpressive, undesirable and unnecessary.

You were saying?

I despise the owner of Sawstop. Whining and complaining and suing because others will not use his product.

Good for Bosch. I hope they have a good product and do well with it.

I'm another one who despises the SS guy.

I really hope Bosch pokes this technology right up SawStopStephen's ***.
 
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BikerDad

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When I first saw a sawstop saw, I thought it was a great idea. Then I saw how it destroyed itself to prevent a loss of limb and thought, impressive but I'm sure it could've been designed better.
I, too, am sure it could have been designed better. Yet, even though we had "large" companies like Milwaukee, Black & Decker, Delta, Makita, Hitachi, Bosch, Oliver, Felder, Powermatic, Jet, General, Altendorf, MiniMax, and so many others with far greater resources than Stephen Gass, it was Stephen Gass who actually made it happen.

It took a company with a 4+ billion Euro annual research and design budget to come up with a better design. They did so by leveraging their expertise and patents from other industries. To get an idea of the scale of resources involved, Bosch's R&D spending is more than TTI's (Parent company of Milwaukee, AEG, Ryobi, Hoover, Oreck, Dirt Devil and others) annual revenue.

It's taken 15 years for any of the big players to come up with an alternative to something that a "patent lawyer" came up with and prototyped in 3 weeks. (The fact that the "patent lawyer" also happens to have a PhD in physics is rarely mentioned.)

Here's hoping that both the Bosch tech spreads and SawStop ups their game as well. Win-win.
 

Dr.JohnnyFever

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It's taken 15 years for any of the big players to come up with an alternative to something that a "patent lawyer" came up with and prototyped in 3 weeks. (The fact that the "patent lawyer" also happens to have a PhD in physics is rarely mentioned.)


You make it sound like it is a near impossible task. In reality, there has not been enough market to make it financially viable. If the market was there, Saw Stop would be the #1 selling saw.

Given the choice of paying for a Delta Unisaw or Saw Stop saw, I will (and did) take the Unisaw.

Edit to add: Sign me up with those that hope that this sinks Saw Stop's boat. Trying to ram it down people's throats for a buck was inexcusable.
 

Thumper68

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The reason behind my rant at the Saw Stop founder is not that I think he used shady Business practices, it is because he spouts that the only reason he invented the saw stop was to make the saws safer, but then turns around and first tries to license the tech for huge amounts of money, your $350 contractor saw would have been twice the price but when that didn't work he tried to force everyone to use his tech.

So it isn't safety he was after but gold.

Hell if it was safety that he was so concerned about he should have given the tech away for free, after all by his own admission it only took him a few weeks and very little money to come up with the working prototype.
 

AJMC

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My school has a Sawstop and one day someone from the Maintenance department tried to cut Blue Foam board on it, and the brake tripped. It was like 60 bucks for a new brake but better then no saw
 

flht1997

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I usually stay out of the SawStop rants, which most table saw discussions lead to, but i'll through in my 2 cents.
I am a high school shop teacher, and am by no stretch considered an expert woodworker. When I took over my current program the first two things I did was remove the radial arm saw and replaced the UniSaw with a SawStop. I have two classes a year with 22 student each in the woodshop. I am liable to ensure a safe working environment and having unprotected table saw is just asking for trouble.
I may not agree with the politics and really don't like the COO of the saw, but I feel it is at least a "good" saw and it works well for my needs. All the high school wood shops I have been in the last 10 years have had SawStops in them.
From my experience, running hardware through will not pop the sawstop, I have also ran pressure treated through with no problems. of course there are times when I will turn the protecting off if I question if it pop. Turning off the protection requires a key, so the students cannot disable it.
I will keep an eye on the Bosch and if the price is competitive, I will consider it when I need to replace my other Uni-saw.
 

PugetDude

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The reason behind my rant at the Saw Stop founder is not that I think he used shady Business practices, it is because he spouts that the only reason he invented the saw stop was to make the saws safer, but then turns around and first tries to license the tech for huge amounts of money, your $350 contractor saw would have been twice the price but when that didn't work he tried to force everyone to use his tech.

So it isn't safety he was after but gold.

Hell if it was safety that he was so concerned about he should have given the tech away for free, after all by his own admission it only took him a few weeks and very little money to come up with the working prototype.

He was spurned by the big tool companies because he wanted way too much for his technology. So he went offshore and found someone to build his overpriced saws and shove them down every deep-pocketed employer and government-funded agency's throat he could, using thinly veiled threats and intimidation.. then turns around and whores himself out as an "expert witness" against anyone who rejected his business tactics when his bias and competitive product clearly constitute a conflict of interest. He's a prime example of why our legal system is circling the drain.

I respect him as an inventor, but despise him as the opportunistic, ambulance-chasing lawyer he has shown himself to be. He deliberately priced his saws out of most people's reach and then earns legal fees when they have an accident using another brand- all while talking out of the other side of his mouth about how all he really wants is saw safety...
 

bdresch

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So he went offshore and found someone to build his overpriced...

He deliberately priced his saws out of most people's reach....


Gotta disagree with you on these points. No one builds table saws in the US anymore. Last I checked the Saw Stop was made in Taiwan along with all other high end saws. The Unisaw was the last US made saw, but I believe that moved now too.

On price, a 3hp Saw Stop professional model retails for the same $2999 that the Powermatic PM2000 does.

On the low end there is a bigger price differential, but those job site saws are built as cheap as possible to hit the lowest price point so your not going to ad a potentially expensive feature and compete with them on price.

I don't know anything about the legal end so I will keep my comments to what I know.
 

rslaback

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My understanding from an old article was that he may have wanted a licensing fee based on the list retail price of the saws his patents were used in, and that that percentage was very high. I could have sworn I read somewhere that the percentage he wanted was somewhere near twenty percent, but I haven't been able to find the source again.


It was after the Ryobi lawsuit and his introduction of his own saws that he refused to license his patents.

He nearly came to an agreement to license it to Ryobi for 3% royalty of the wholesale cost of any saw that was built with it. That percentage could increase up to 8% max if other manufacturers also came on board. No doubt this was based on the known phenomenon that the technology would be cheaper to produce as more players bought into the game. He's a patent attorney after all.

In terms of his refusal to license his patent now, he really doesn't have a choice. His stop mechanism is what makes his table saw different from the competitors. Licensing the technology now would be slitting his own throat. He is running a saw manufacturing business now. The time for licensing ceased as soon as he had to drop millions to make his own saw.

You wouldn't expect Coke to license their formula to Pepsi would you?
 
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