Torquing aluminum feeders

351cmach · Apr 4, 2015

I am using the black Polaris connectors splicing SER to XHHW #2. The torque spec is 150 inlbs . The cable gets crushed and splits into 2 after approx. 90 inlbs. Do you torque aluminum at a lower spec when using these? It's not the torque wrench calibration and yes it is inlbs. No difference in a torque wrench vs torque screwdriver right?

Mustang51js · Apr 4, 2015

I tighten them until I feel like it is tight enough. Just a socket and small ratchet

pattenp · Apr 4, 2015

Are you coating the wire ends well with Noalox? That will cut down on some friction resistance.

Edit: Well after saying that, I realized that won't make a difference.

sberry · Apr 4, 2015

Coating the threads would let it tighten too much if it is a dry rating.
I goat threads and hand tighten. I just had an inspection and the 1 thing the guy did look at was main breaker screws and I had them good but I been doing this a long time and know what tight feels like.
He must know most amateurs don't get them tight enough with a hand screwdriver. I got a big ole Klein just for such occasions.

Aceman · Apr 4, 2015

Mustang51js said:
I tighten them until I feel like it is tight enough. Just a socket and small ratchet

Same here, I've never torqued a Polaris.

alfredeneuman · Apr 4, 2015

Mustang51js said:
I tighten them until I feel like it is tight enough. Just a socket and small ratchet

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has never torqued any electrical connection with a torque wrench (by his own admission), so he has no reference point

Claims to know when it's tight enough by feel......

Sounds legit to me :lol:

Mustang51js · Apr 4, 2015

alfredeneuman said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has never torqued any electrical connection with a torque wrench (by his own admission), so he has no reference point

Claims to know when it's tight enough by feel......
Sounds legit to me

Never once had an issue with a wire under a lug coming loose. It's common sense and you can tell if it's tight enough or not. Guys like you that think they know everything because you read about it,you may be book smart but I actually do the work. I deal with multiple inspectors from each town in my area and never have issues with anything. So I must be doing something right. Sorry if I don't run to my code book every time someone asks a question on here or jump at the opportunity to try and prove someone wrong from things that really don't matter.

alfredeneuman · Apr 4, 2015

Mustang51js said:
Guys like you that think they know everything because you read about it,you may be book smart but I actually do the work.

I started my apprenticeship in 1970, and have worked continuously since then.

pattenp · Apr 4, 2015

alfredeneuman said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has never torqued any electrical connection with a torque wrench (by his own admission), so he has no reference point

Claims to know when it's tight enough by feel......
Sounds legit to me

Everyone in this test thought they had it tight enough.

*

toplessHO · Apr 4, 2015

6 ft lbs? and he was proud?

Marctrees · Apr 4, 2015

We always used "split bolts", you could SEE what was happening.

Never used these, but they look great timesaving because they appear to be totally pre-insulated?

Just me, if you are torking to a spec, and you are cutting the wire, OMG - I would forego the T wrench and do them to feel.

And we used the NoAlox paste w AL.

But, I would never be comfortable with these Polaris not having the visual confirmation

Just my thoughts, electrician for about 20 yrs. Marc

Wirepuller · Apr 4, 2015

alfredeneuman said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Has never torqued any electrical connection with a torque wrench (by his own admission), so he has no reference point

Claims to know when it's tight enough by feel......

Sounds legit to me

He does it for a living. Shut up. You sound like an *******.

ishiboo · Apr 4, 2015

Mustang51js said:
Never once had an issue with a wire under a lug coming loose. It's common sense and you can tell if it's tight enough or not. Guys like you that think they know everything because you read about it,you may be book smart but I actually do the work. I deal with multiple inspectors from each town in my area and never have issues with anything. So I must be doing something right. Sorry if I don't run to my code book every time someone asks a question on here or jump at the opportunity to try and prove someone wrong from things that really don't matter.

Kinda. Unfortunately, it's not like steel or copper... when highly loaded, aluminum can heat up and much more easily go through expansion/contraction cycles, which makes the proper torque spec important.

IMO, for the 2 seconds it takes to grab a torque wrench and use it for service conductors, it's worth it versus stroking your ego telling yourself you're such an experienced pro that you don't need one. One of those things IMO where a "pro" does things the professional way, and not the cool "I'm too good to need it" way. :beer:

Mustang51js · Apr 4, 2015

Wirepuller said:
He does it for a living. Shut up. You sound like an *******.

At least someone agrees with me

Mustang51js · Apr 4, 2015

ishiboo said:
Kinda. Unfortunately, it's not like steel or copper... when highly loaded, aluminum can heat up and much more easily go through expansion/contraction cycles, which makes the proper torque spec important.

IMO, for the 2 seconds it takes to grab a torque wrench and use it for service conductors, it's worth it versus stroking your ego telling yourself you're such an experienced pro that you don't need one. One of those things IMO where a "pro" does things the professional way, and not the cool "I'm too good to need it" way.

No ones stroking their ego,it's just common sense on how much to tighten them,especially on a meter pan,if you go to tight you can snap the lug right off. No reason to crank down on them,I've taken apart and installed enough meters to have a feel for how much pressure you need. And I have had the meter break and lugs strip trying to take them off. I've seen more issues with lugs being over tightened then being loose,because it seems they tighten up over time.You guys can do it however you want,I just know what works for me.

Marctrees · Apr 4, 2015

Ya, but what about when the torque spec cuts the conductor strands??

I still say what I said. Marc

Mr. T · Apr 4, 2015

I'm surprised none of you professionals have ever bothered to call the manufacturer and just ask how it's supposed to be done. At least in my world, that's what makes you a true professional.

ishiboo · Apr 4, 2015

Mustang51js said:
No ones stroking their ego,it's just common sense on how much to tighten them,especially on a meter pan,if you go to tight you can snap the lug right off. No reason to crank down on them,I've taken apart and installed enough meters to have a feel for how much pressure you need. And I have had the meter break and lugs strip trying to take them off. I've seen more issues with lugs being over tightened then being loose,because it seems they tighten up over time.You guys can do it however you want,I just know what works for me.

Torque wrenches exist because there are reliability issues with not having the proper torque spec. "Tight enough and the lug didn't snap off" is not an indication that the job was done properly :thumbup:

Did you watch the IBEW video where your fellow professionals thought they were doing it correctly as well? Installing 4/0 in a 200A resi panel sounds like it would be one of the most common tasks for aluminum for a resi electrician.

alfredeneuman · Apr 4, 2015

Marctrees said:
Ya, but what about when the torque spec cuts the conductor strands??

I still say what I said. Marc

I'll try to get hold of NSI Tech Support and see what they have to say about.
Members on this board have had the same issue twice.

The same thing as the Polaris are made by another company in clear if you want to be see through.

And just for the record I AM an *******, and proud of it :bounce:

Marctrees · Apr 4, 2015

Ya, but what about when the torque spec cuts the conductor strands??

I still say what I said. Marc

ishiboo · Apr 5, 2015

As alfred said, contact tech support and see what they say.

150 in-lbs seems high... it depends on the design of course, but a QO/HOM lug of that size would be like 50 in-lbs.

alfredeneuman · Apr 8, 2015

351cmach,

I sent a Private Message to you on April 5th, it shows as being unread.

Before contacting the NSI Tech Support, I need to know the exact part number of the connector.

Also, I've been unable to find a connector with a 150 inlb torque value.
45 and 180 inlbs yes, 150 no.

zmaxmotorsports · Apr 8, 2015

alfredeneuman said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has never torqued any electrical connection with a torque wrench (by his own admission), so he has no reference point

Claims to know when it's tight enough by feel......
Sounds legit to me

Same way Ive done it for years. :dunno:

zmaxmotorsports · Apr 8, 2015

Mustang51js said:
Never once had an issue with a wire under a lug coming loose. It's common sense and you can tell if it's tight enough or not. Guys like you that think they know everything because you read about it,you may be book smart but I actually do the work. I deal with multiple inspectors from each town in my area and never have issues with anything. So I must be doing something right. Sorry if I don't run to my code book every time someone asks a question on here or jump at the opportunity to try and prove someone wrong from things that really don't matter.

alfredeneuman · Apr 8, 2015

You guys are violating the Code then.

110.3 (B)
Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

...and then there is "Annex I Recommended Tightening Torque Tables from UL Standard 486A-B" that deals with lugs where the instructions or labeling is absent.

And as far as "reading about it" vs and "doing the work" I've been doing the work since 1970, probably before Mustang was born.

351cmach · Apr 8, 2015

Polaris part # It-1/0 with a spec of 150 inlbs for #2. It is not rated for fine stranded wire but I would not think XHHW is considered fine, maybe I am wrong.

alfredeneuman said:
Hi,

alfredeneuman · Apr 8, 2015

Thank You! :thumbup:

BTW, it's 180 inlbs in the catalog for it. (that's even worse than 150)
Maybe they changed the instructions
:dunno:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/UserFiles/Documents/Product/179_it_polaris15.pdf

XHHW is not fine strand wire

Aceman · Apr 8, 2015

It's 150 in lbs on their chart:

alfredeneuman · Apr 8, 2015

I quoted both values when I sent my request.
It doesn't make any difference if the strands are still severed at 90 inlbs though

toplessHO · Apr 8, 2015

found out long ago that the proper way to terminate aluminum is with compression lug,sleeve or micadapt.

alfredeneuman · Apr 8, 2015

They're no help at all:

"All, the torque value is based on screw head shape, wire size being used and the hole size of the wire way.
In this particular case the connector has a wire way that accommodates a 1/0 thru #14 AWG. The customer is using a #2 AWG.
Here are the following torque values for each wire size used in this connector...
IT-1/0
Wire size in.lbf.

1/0 180
3-2-1 150
4-6 110
8 75
10-14 35

The catalog lists the max. torque value... while the instruction sheet should have listed the torque by wire size used. See chart on pg.212 of 2015 catalog.

Torque wrenches should be calibrated annually.
Due to the mechanism in play, within the torque wrench... one should always relieve the tension from the wrench by baking it off, when not being used.
Also, many folks misread or misalign their wrenches when dialing in the values... many folks also commonly use the wrong scale as well.
All of the above torque values are in "in.lbf." (inch pounds) not pounds, not Nm.
Yes, it's a lot of pressure on a #2, but that is what UL requires to be able to maintain pressure on the conductor through heat cycling process "expansion and contraction" as energy is put through it.
Hope this helps. Also, a good article about the subject if you follow the link.
http://ecmweb.com/contractor/do-you-have-calibrated-arm

Karl R Miller
Product Manager, Electrical Division

NSi Industries LLC"

sberry · Apr 9, 2015

I would have scored well, its about the same as a small engine head bolt,,,,, hahahahahahaha. Notice how the one guy did almost perfect by feel, he has probably checked his work. I may have mentioned this but the one thing Mr Inspector did check was main lug tightness with a fat handle screwdriver he had. He liked it cause it was farmer tight.

I had a genius work for me I had to work on that. He really was a genius but I said, in your world that's good but here we got to snug it up.
A lot of old times got the feel from engine work where there were published specs and it was easy to grab a wrench and compare.
I have read some on studies and most manual work is under. They knew this even before they made that test.

bjcouche · Apr 25, 2015

I'd like to put my $0.02 in here... I've torqued stuff by feel and with a torque wrench. It depends on what I'm doing and my confidence level and criticality of what I'm tightening. That being said, I'm sure some professionals can get good results by feel, but I would not go so far as to say that it's common sense. It might be common sense to them but not at all common sense to the next guy. I've learned long ago that common sense is not common.
I also have a trust but verify mentality. In the case of the OP, he has a problem with his application and was trying to follow the manufacturer's specified torque and the wire was significantly damaged. Instead of just assembling it looser, he wanted to know what was really going on. I can only make several guesses:
1: the connector was not designed for aluminum (I think it was listed for al tho)
2: The connector would work on al but not compact al, or possibly annealed (newer flexible, softer alloys)
3: the torque spec was developed and later the shape of the tip that contacts the wire was changed, now more pointy and it's now cutting the wire.
4: the wrong bolt is being used in the connector and there is a mixup at the factory during manufacturing.

I never have blind faith in a component that is manufactured by a large corporation, to perform as advertized, especially when safety is involved. It's a large bureaucracy and there's lots of unqualified managers and accountants making engineering and quality decisions. If I were in the OP's position I'd just use a different type of connector from a different manufacturer, because something is wrong with the setup he has. It could be the number on the spec sheet or it could be the connector. As this thread proved, the large corp just assumes the user is an idiot (common sense is not common) and that he was reading ft-lbs and not inch-lbs, and there couldn't possibly be a problem with their product, even though they didn't bother to check.

sberry · Apr 25, 2015

We call it farmer tight. I like the idea of verify and learning what it really feels like. We learned a lot from trial and error and then from engine work and a lot from reading and some from forensics for lack of better wording.
The reading tells us the study says that the avg hand tight bolt is under tight like the vid showed. They hit them too hard with a power tool and too loose by hand. Hard *** mechanics that work on engines and equipment know this, techs and those who started when they learn the basics in apprentice class at 20 don't have the long time feel.
You dont have to wait 20 yrs to find out a bolt on a bulldozer wasn't tight enuf.
Now, tight really means clamping power and only has some vage relationship torque numbers. The real reason we have dry numbers is that its a comprimize and we cant get a zillion people with a wrench in their hand to all follow the right procedure.
Again, John Deere tech has a good manual for techs starting their program that gives an over view of fasteners, some simple data regarding thread design and good explanation about lubrication as does Snapon with old torque wrenches. This isn't something new, engineers calculate this very well for decades and says right at the top of the figgin page. All values are for clean lightly lubricated threads.
It doesn't mention dry torque anywhere,,,,,, this is a relatively modern concept. Maybe even ok with controlled factory coatings etc but aInt worth a sheet in the real world except for being the cause of loose connections and stuck seized bolts.

sberry · Apr 25, 2015

I ran in to an engineer or 2 early on the net started some pages specifically about this but it never went very far. It was mostly egghead to egghead but in the end what he said seemed to closely align with real world that when its dry it sticks and you never know when and how much and in the case of dipsticks with air guns at tire stores often not only seized but outright friction welded.
These are not hand applied connections though, hand install reduces seize but unless the operator is highly skilled or dilligent often simply not tight enough.

sberry · Apr 25, 2015

I expressed my opinion of how poorly the avg mechanic was trained in regards to this and it was a shame since this was the point it really hit the road. His opinion was that engineering wasn't much better in the sense that some will never understand it.
They know a lot about it, way more than I can comprehend and certainly calculate but its somewhat obvious to a mechanic worth a pinch of **** its cutting the wire off or isn't tight and that a little wire wont need the power of a big one.

sberry · Apr 25, 2015

I started with engines early and went thru a general engine class. I remember in a panic cause there is always an intake manifold bolt or 2 you cant get the wrench on. I see the electric inspector has a sort fat screwdriver, it has the blade for cover screws and main breaker lugs for 100.
I take my big ole fat handle Klein and tighten near all I can get on it and its just right. The inspector looked like a stock trade guy, he leaned on his for a few seconds on the 3 lugs and was well satisfied.

sberry · Apr 25, 2015

Our meter base connections are hex head, give a little crank with a ratchet or leveraged handle where a guy can put himself in position to feel the power. Personally with crimped wire like to run it up tight, wait an hour or better a day and come back and give it a pinch. I put a dab of no/lox on all these threads, this is the place I get off, don't care what the rest of the world thinks about torque, I want it good snug tight with a screw aint stuck and not going to corrode.
I personally think a panel needs a mist of wd40 over it and the g/n bars and screws, especially outside. It cant be right to hear a screw squeak as its being tightened.

Torquing aluminum feeders

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