Whats the tool situation in the Germany?

What is the tool situation in Germany? Oops, I put "the" in the title!
(Sorry for the "boilerplate", I asked the same question for the UK in the past! I have modified it somewhat for the change in country and additional questions!)
Hey, Monte! (or anyone else in Deutschland) I have been reading your posts and obviously you definitely are knowledgeable about German tools! I am always interested in German stuff so I thought I would ask you some questions!
Questions: what is the situation in the Germany in relation to tools, what brands do people buy, what is available, are there many German tool companies left (so many brands in the USA have gone now, because of the reduction of the manufacturing base here, similar in the Germany?), are european/German tools favored over USA made stuff (e.g. Stahlwille, Facom, Hazet, Gedore, Klann etc.) and what is your tool collection and use of tools like? Can you describe what in your opinion are the different brands you use and what the quality level of each is? Also, you mentioned "you cannot make poor quality tools in Germany"; can you explain this and does this have something to do with government mandated quality standards? We on this board. are also seeing a trend of German companies taking some of their production of tools (such as screwdrivers) into eastern europe and asia; is this a trend you think will increase over time to reduce production costs? A bunch of questions I know but I find it fascinating to hear from people outside the USA and what their tool loves, hates, and obsessions are! Please fill us in on the situation in Germany and if you can what a european perspective would be.
OH, one last thing, USA EBAY (the obvious weakness of the US dollar has made this a viable option for people in other countries); what has your experiences been, how much have you purchased and how does your purchases compare to retail Snap-On prices? Thanks!

I did not know Facom was German. Always thought they were from Italy for some reason. Maybe because they were used on Ferrari before or something. Not sure why U thought that. <grin>

I am keeping an eye on this thread. Would be cool to see what people say.

tj

Well, according to Facom propaganda: "Facom is the #1 producer of hand tools in Europe."; so, I would assume for someone in Europe, they would be a viable option! I would also assume, that a mechanic in Germany would possibly own other brands aside from a German made tool; I'm interested in the "situation", we'll see what people in Germany buy... I'm assuming like us... they choose many different brands. Well, deutschlanders.... whats the deal in Deutschland?

For those unfamiliar with Facom; here is their website: http://www.facom.com/com/home.php

amishman said:

I did not know Facom was German. Always thought they were from Italy for some reason. Maybe because they were used on Ferrari before or something. Not sure why U thought that. <grin>

I am keeping an eye on this thread. Would be cool to see what people say.

tj

Click to expand...

He did say european/german tools and facom is french, beta is the only italian brand I know of.

Should be cool to see the German outlook on tools in one condensed thread.

Diesel-Mech said:

He did say european/german tools and facom is french, beta is the only italian brand I know of.

Should be cool to see the German outlook on tools in one condensed thread.

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Ah, French. hehehe

I was way off.

Damn I feel like some French Onion Soup now.

tj

have fun

ok I`ll try it:
I think the average german is similar to the average american (?) and buys his/her tools in a Home Depot or Lowe`s style market. There are a couple of them over here “Obi”, “Hornbach”, “Praktiker”, “Bauhaus”, “Bahr” just to name the biggest. Most have different price/Quality ranges from 2,50 bucks pliers to 18.- or 20.- . So every customer can choose what fits into his budget. Some companies sell name brands among their import products so you can find Knipex, Wera, Wiha, Matador,Stabila, Erdi, Bessey ,Kirschen and Stanley. Other companies doesn’t offer name brands , they sell everything under their own name or sell tools which are branded e.g. “Lux”, “Connex” or “Black and Decker” (!) which are distributed by wholesalers which especially or exclusively deliver DIY markets . Under these names you`ll find everything from imported tools to german tools or both under the same brand. For example you can find german made clamps sold as Black + Decker while the sockets + ratchets are imported and the screwdrivers again made in germany. You can also find NWS pliers under the “Lux” name etc. So basically you can find also german made tools in these DIY markets. But since e.g. a PH #2 Screwdriver costs about 5 to 7,50 Euro there I think most people buy the cheaper imports or grab them out of the 1 $ bin. I`m not very often there but everytime I see people looking at the 20.- wera bit set but then they buy the 20.- import set with 40 or 50 bits instead of 10.

So I think the average homeowner buys there and don’t want to pay much.

The hobby user who uses their tools more often will eventually pay more because he discovered that the 1$ screwdriver or the 14,99 ratchet set wont do the job (long time)
So they will buy the higher priced DIY stuff (german or import) and is happy since there are some decent quality chinese/taiwanese tools available here. Some swear by “Proxxon” the others say this is good or that or they just replace the common size of wrenches or sockets with Hazet etc. and it works fine for them.
The other type of people will only buy the name brands Hazet, Stahlwille, snap on etc. and swear by them.

So I think its pretty much the same here and in the US (?)

The professionell user has to work with what the employer gives him since over here the employer has to give the employee everything so he can do his work (by law) .
So mostly you`ll find german or european tools since every company buy their tools from a wholesaler or industrial supplier. A short look into my catalogs from the 5 biggest german distributors which also sells european wide , show brand names (hand tools) like Knipex, Stahlwille, Heyco, Hazet, Gedore,Habero,Dako, kukko, Wiha, Wera, Bahco, Facom, ISI, AMF, Jokari, PB Swiss, Baudat, Klauke, VBW, Peddinghaus, Gesipa, Tohnichi,Tajima, Noga, Bessey,Turnus, Ko-ken, Ridgid, Virax, Tajima, Roller. The “exotic” stuff (PB swiss, Tohnichi, ISI, Tajima, Ko-ken, Facom, Bahco…) is distributed only by 1 or 2 distributors while you find Knipex in every catalog the same goes for wiha and wera the ones go with Wiha the others with Wera.
There are dozens of smaller distributors where you can get Felo ,Witte, Elora etc.
A lot of tools are sold under the brand names of the distributor like I said in the other thread, which mostly are german made tools. There are many tool companies here which are specialized in private label products like Will and Orbis (Pliers) , Walter Schröder (Screwdrivers) and also the big names produce for them like Stahlwille , Witte, Wiha etc.

The other type of distributor is the “Würth” (Wurth in the US ) type who sells everything under his own brand and design, so here you`ll find Wurth chemicals, wurth screwdrivers, wurth angle grinders etc. There are some more companies like that like “Berner” or “BTI” so the customer gets everything from one source under one name. You cant always tell where the tools are from because a socket or wrench is hard to identify, but the wurth stuff is mostly top notch (Felo screwdrivers (they just bought the company) , Knipex pliers , Facom Ratchets, Fein + Bosch angle grinders etc.)

Then there are the local distributors for example the car parts dealers who sells everything from brake parts, mufflers to tools. The 5 bigger ones here in northern germany mostly offer Hazet , there is one who has Gedore and two which have Hazet and Facom . My favorite one also has some Beta stuff and even 4 channellock pliers (!) . But since Hazet offers the widest range of car related special tools (next to Klann/Gedore) its no wonder that you`ll find them everywhere. Some of them offer only the core programme from the manufacturer (sockets + wrenches) while the screwdriver might come from Wera and pliers from Knipex while other distributors offer the complete line (which is not very common). Most of these companies now also have imported special and/or hand tools from companies like “SW-Stahl” because not every repair shop can afford all the special tools which you need for todays cars and pay a Hazet/Kukko/klann price. The official car repair shops lets say from Mercedes or VW get some of their tools thru their parent company so a VW dealership/repair-shop gets their tools from VW because they have tools specially made for them by Hazet or other companies (“Matra” e.g.) and to be able to repair the cars and to fullfill the ISO 9001 Quality standards it’s a must for them. Other tools are bought through their distributor.

What you don’t find very often are other tools than mentioned or american tools since the only company which is officially distributed here is Snap-on (and Irwin). Sure you`ll find some craftsman stuff in some tool boxes , there are a lot of fans of american cars or motorcycles (me too ) so they usually bring some US tools from their USA holidays.
There is a small number of dealers who sell Gearwrench, KD Tools, Ullmann, Chanellock etc.
But they are very rare and you really have to look out for them. But the prices e.g. for the Chanellock pliers are way higher than Knipex so you wont find them often. It`s more like if you work on Harleys or american cars than you`ll buy some US stuff because that fit together. I`m sure there are a lot of Harley riders who have snap-on tools….But I think the snap-on way of distribution is too uncommon (it’s the only “truck brand” here) (and their prices are 2-3 times higher than Hazet ) so that’s why they are very rare. Plus american products are generally not considered quality products , in car tests the cadillac ( or chrysler 300 etc.) always looses against Mercedes, BMW and Audi , the chrysler Voyager is always last in reliability and customer satisfaction etc. . Maybe this is also a reason why people rather buy other tools. Surprisingly the USA was 3rd biggest importer of tools to germany
(but only 8,1 % / china 14,8% , switzerland 13,4 %, Taiwan 7,4% ) (in 2002 )

So the summary is there are a lot of imported tools but also a large number of german hand tools on the market today.

haha the damn text was too long max. 10.000 characters ?? thats not enough for me

contd.:

As for how many tool makers still left: The statistics say there are more than 1000 producers of hand tools and machine tools (drill bits, saw blades etc.) in Germany with about 750 companies with less than 20 employees. So most of the companies are very small and most of them have specialized and sell niche products . For example there are many companies who sell pliers , one company only make blacksmith pliers while the other one only make electronic pliers , the next glodsmith pliers and so on. For example there are also a lot of screwdriver/bit makers besides the big ones like Athlet/Wuro, Wekador, USH, WKS, Cukiso, Turnus, Sora, Robert Schröder, Walter Schröder, Eszet, SKG, HKR…. So there is still an amazingly high number of tool makers here who mostly produce for the big ones or make special tools (for the car industry e.g.) but also standard tools (wrenches, screwdrivers, sockets etc.) .

As for the “What you wont find are cheap tools because you cant make them here”.
Is just because the personnel costs are very high that’s basically what makes the tool expensive , the statistics say that 38% of the turnover are personnel costs so if you sell a wrench for 5.- $ that’s 1,90 $ just to pay the people who makes them plus you have to pay the metal , gas, rent,machines etc….. then in the end after taxes maybe you make about 6-8% ….so you do the math. So if you want to produce here you have to sell for a certain price or you have to move production where everything is cheaper. A chinese worker cost somewhere between 100 - 300 $ while a german workplace cost about 2500$ to 3500$ ( incl. solidarity tax, income tax, church tax, health insurance, nursing insurance,unemployment insurance (!!!!!)) plus high prices for electricity, gasoline ( 5,84$ a gallon) (you have to transport all those tools) , holidays lasting for month (actually min. 25 days) , the company has to pay up to a month wages if you get ill , wages rising 4-8% every year etc. etc………………….

I spoke with a reprensative of Gedore at a fair here and he said as long as people pay the prices Gedore need to keep up production here they will stay here. Some others will go east but most are still producing here because you have everything under control (quality control of the raw material, quality control of the manufacturing processes, quality control of the finished product, quick reaction if somethings wrong) you can deliver fast , you can react on customers demand, you can work together with the customer to develop special tools etc. so if that is important for a industrial customer there will always be a market for high quality tools at a naturally higher price but you also get the service which you pay for .

So to keep up production here the conclusion of most toolmakers is to innovate new products develop new patents and invest in research to make better products (for example: the “german tool acssociation” works together with universities and research labs to investigate new production technologies to enhance hardening / tempering procedures and metallurgy, they do long time durability test of tools and materials. For example they tested ½” ratchets for durability over a 3 years period, with all major manufacturers to gain informations about failures and how to do it better . (can take a while if you test each tooth 50,000 times with a load of 512 NM and then switch to the next tooth then again 50,000 times 512 NM ……….)

So I personally think as long as there are people who want top notch quality tools which are safe to use and hold up a life long there will be german made tools


As for my tool collection and quality of the tools:
I really cant say much because I`m only a hobby-user and so far I only broke 1 Hazet adapter ( ½ to 3/8”. I think they are only for up to 200NM – operator error) and one ¼” socket ( I don’t know the size.. the one you need to remove the bolt of a chevy rear axle which holds the big pin which holds the axles in place (???) you remove the bolt then the pin then the rings which hold the axles then you can remove the axle-shafts….. get it ??? It was a strange size like an 8mm bolt 30 mm long or so with 7 or 8mm head (or inches ??) or so…. Glued in…….. )
The other issues I had are with cheap import stuff like locking pliers whick flex under load or screwdriver blades which wear fast or 6 point sockets whick became 12 point sockets after a while……..breaking ratchets etc.
Plus I sold my stahlwille combination wrenches because the 18mm wrench opened up under load thus I bought Hazet wrenches (600N series) and they hold up very well .
The most expensive error I made was to buy the snap on FH936A ratchet because once when I wanted to remove cylinder head bolts of a small block I took the ratchet pulled the handle and then I heard a “creak” sound …… the bolt was loose but the lever from the ratchet jumped from the “off” position to the “on” position….. and that’s definitely not good !!! Then I took my Facom 3/8” ratchet and removed all other bolts without problems…….

This leds to the last theme….. Ebay + snap on…..:
About 5 years ago I bought a 4 pc open ring wrench set from craftsman for 25,99$ and a SO T936 ($ 39.-) . That’s the Ebay USA story…..
I bought some Astro pneumatic ball joint and upper control arm bushing service sets but from a normal vendor in the US. I have some other american tools (allen keys) from Eklind (free) and Bondhus (15.- euro) and a 17pc. combination wrench set (1/4 – 1 1/4) from craftsman (33,09 euro) and SO S936 (62,50 euro) but I bought them here.

Since I was not very impressed with the performance of the SO ratchet I didn’t buy anything else from SO because of what I experienced and also because they want so much more $$$ than german stuff is …. Even their sales promo prices are way to high…. Some examples…: a 10 piece punch and chisel set SO PPCSG710 .. sale price 129,71 euro (168,38 dollar) maybe sounds good (retail 184.- $) but I can get german made pin/starter punches with handles for 3,10 $ each, the chisels are 12.-ea. so that’s about 58 $ I paid so I saved 110 $ which I can invest in other tools….
(and they`re made in spain I just saw…!)………


So I personally only can judge the quality from what I experienced and what I read (Tool tests) . So that’s why I personally rather stick with the german tools (and Facom etc…) because they are cheaper and more ergonomic and better . Examples:

pliers --> bigger handles = more force, handles don’t cut into skin etc
screwdrivers --> more ergonomic (witte or Felo handles e.g. ) (imho)
Locking pliers --> release lever in “pull version” instead of “push version (vise-grip) = more force)
Hammers --> with additional security plate and screw (Habero Rotband plus) to pull the head from the handle you need 19000 – 24000 newtons (!) while a Stanley hammer gives up at 6900 newton
Wrenches --> Better steel quality thus thin wrenches with higher torque values
( opposite: craftsman….)

Etc. etc.

So I basically choose some of the tools I buy from what I read in those tool tests .
Ps: I just found a combination wrench test (13mm sizes) and again snap-on dissapointed me…. (“nothing even comes close” …..)
(Torque/yielding for the open end: Bahco 135NM, snap-on 135 NM ,with flank drive 143NM, Stahlwille 143NM, HR (india) 143NM, Proxxon 147NM, Ajay (india) 147NM, Facom 156NM, Walter(germ.) 160NM, Force (taiwan) 168NM, Gedore 168 NM, Wiesemann(germ.) 172NM, Stanley 172NM, Matador (germ.) 180 NM, Hazet 184 NM (winner)


so thats all for today .... already 5 o clock in the night…..
the longest text I wrote after I left school I hope you gain some insights of german tool psychology.

if you have any questions let me know…….

so now you can throw me out of here not being a SO cheerleader… :bounce

Wow, Monte that was a long read, very informative though. I wish we had stores here that had top brand tools everywhere like: Knipex, Stahlwille, Heyco, Hazet, Gedore, Wiha, Wera, Bahco, Facom and Beta. That would be sweet, of course I would be broke.

Not all of us here are Snap-on cheerleaders

Wow, that was a long read. Thanks for you time!
Over in Japan, there's a good demand for fine German tools. So much so that German companies create Japan-only versions.

Do you regard Proxxon Industrial products such as their Micro-head ratchets to be proffesional quality?

there's a manufacturer in germany that supplies... or supplied the green handled screw drivers for ames. last we checked that company said that the machine broke that made the green handled screw drivers and they weren't going to fix it. so no more screw drivers from that manufacturer. atleast that's what ames says. it seemed to be a popular tool, why would they just abandon it? of course ames could be FOS.

Monte, thanks a lot for your post. Very informative. I didn't have a whole lot of tools while growing up in Germany and Switzerland, so I couldn't really comment here. The only "leftovers" I still have is one Hazet ratchet, a PB screwdriver, a Felo screwdriver, and a couple double open end Gedore wrenches...

Tschuess, Jochen

We use allot of german tools at work like proxxon heyco,protmat all of it seems to be quite good.

@Monte....

what a long text nice..

The professionell user has to work with what the employer gives him since over here the employer has to give the employee everything so he can do his work (by law) .

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It's a nice idea...but it doesn't works.
In the automotive business, I had only bad experience with tools...often the employer bought tools from the supermarket like "Mannesmann"...complete wrench sets for 3 $...

and often I never got what I needed...no special tools, no gearwrenches, no 3/8 stuff, not all sockets...no impact sockets...it *****!

Bought my tools 4 years ago. Will never work again without my tools!
In germany, the tools are mostly much more expensive then in USA(like everything, it has nothing to do with all our costs).

Most mechanics don't have the knowledge about tools, because they give a big **** on everything, it's the german mentality...
When I talking about the USA...then I've two different charachters here...
1st: They like my stories and they like america...
2nd: They hate everything that is or is considered as US...

Germany is changing, thousands people trying to leave the country, because you are not free! Everything will be decided by other people (employer, goverment etc.)

My SO dealer said onetimes "germans are not willed to be free or to invest in their future, it's a shame when I see those 500$ 120pc. toolsets..."
"When some shops are notice my us flag airbrush on my truck, they starting to whip my **** and I have to leave without a deal/trade"

....today he is on every vacation in the usa...

wages rising 4-8% every year etc. etc………………….

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Oh no....not everywhere...the scale of charges is mostly just a piece of paper, most shops and garages are paying much less...if you are a tempory worker, you earn 40-70% less then the others...Germany is dying!

back to topic:

outsorcing
Hazet and a lot of others brands a producing tools in Asia...heard, that some tool boxes are from asia. They do it to make more and more Money...but you pay still the high german prices. When you compare the quality with snap-on you save a lot of $$$ when you buy SO...(made in canada or usa)!

Ebay:
I don't buy much at Ebay US...I get similar prices in UK without the customs.
Example>>> Dickies work pant...USA ~17 $ UK 18 Euro....Germany 70 Euro...

average german wage (month after tax) for mechanics= 1100-1300 Euro...consider, a coke in USA for 1$ will cost 1 Euro here...the $ weakniss has no effect on our wage! 1000$ have the same value like 1000 Euro!

Tool quality

most tools are compareable to SO....ScrewDriver and Pliers are much better then SO.
Some people here know the brand GARANT...Garant buys the wrenches,sockets and ratchets from stahlwille!
Stahlwille produces the special tools for the Eurofighter2000 !

superautobacs said:

Wow, that was a long read. Thanks for you time!
Over in Japan, there's a good demand for fine German tools. So much so that German companies create Japan-only versions.

Do you regard Proxxon Industrial products such as their Micro-head ratchets to be proffesional quality?

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yeah the japanese are crazy ..every now and then i surf through their tool shops it looks like they hire top notch photographers just to take photos of the tools they offer and they choose only the best tools from each brand.
i like these rockabilly look-a-like japanese hot roddders and lowriders and their passion to detail too.

Actually 2 weeks ago i hold their 1/4" micro ratchet in my hands, but i was disappointed , the lever didnt move !?!? Then i took another one and you could move the lever. Then i wanted to switch from left to right - but didnt worked. Then i moved the square then you could switch the lever, same thing when i wanted to switch back..... i dunno...
Maybe i would try the other ratchets. The wrenches and sockets are mostly considered as good and tests show this too. Most people are satisfied with proxxon if you look in german car or motorcycle forums.

Monte,
here in the UK we like the products Aldi sell. Very cheap, unknown makes but they rarely break and if they do Aldi will change them with no quibble.
What's the german take on Aldi - they are a German company right?

Frank, are you talking about these guys?
http://www.aldi.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi

Yes, Billymade.
They're mostly a grocery store in the UK but have regular weekly offers where tools often pop up.
As I said above, we like the offers in the UK.
Every now and again they offer a high spec computer - it was voted the best value-for-money in the UK last year by "Computer Shopper" magazine.

Frank Elson said:

Monte,
here in the UK we like the products Aldi sell. Very cheap, unknown makes but they rarely break and if they do Aldi will change them with no quibble.
What's the german take on Aldi - they are a German company right?

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I already heard that the people in the UK eat strange things and drive on the wrong side of the road but tools from Aldi ???
just kidding !!!
Sure many many people buy tools from Aldi or Lidl, they`re cheap and many people are happy with them. But if you look closer you`ll find a lot of safety recalls like axes or hammers which looses their head, tools with rubber handles which can cause cancer (they contain "Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons" sometimes 1000 times higher than allowed !! if you use your hammer 1 hour its like you smoked 3500 cigarettes i just read))
chainsaws which dont stop anymore, insulated 1000 volt screwdriver which are not insulated etc. etc. .....
so i dont want to buy this and if i would live in the UK or US i wouldnt too... i bet other shops like Harbor freight offer the same stuff, but i personally dont want it. Sure there are other tools like these 3 piece locking pliers set which they sold for i think 10 or 12 bucks but the german version is so much nicer ..where the jaws dont bend sideways under load , where the release lever is mounted the right way (not the vise grip way) , this cost me like 35.- for the same stuff but i only have to pay this once in my lifetime so maybe i live another 35 years and then thats only 1 buck a year !! WOW THATS A GOOD DEAL !!

Monte said:

yeah the japanese are crazy ..every now and then i surf through their tool shops it looks like they hire top notch photographers just to take photos of the tools they offer and they choose only the best tools from each brand.
i like these rockabilly look-a-like japanese hot roddders and lowriders and their passion to detail too.

Actually 2 weeks ago i hold their 1/4" micro ratchet in my hands, but i was disappointed , the lever didnt move !?!? Then i took another one and you could move the lever. Then i wanted to switch from left to right - but didnt worked. Then i moved the square then you could switch the lever, same thing when i wanted to switch back..... i dunno...
Maybe i would try the other ratchets. The wrenches and sockets are mostly considered as good and tests show this too. Most people are satisfied with proxxon if you look in german car or motorcycle forums.

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Having lived in Japan for half of my life, I know exactly what you mean. Their popular culture is quite intriguiging to any foreigner...including myself.
Thanks for the heads-up on the micro ratchets. I was enticed to buy one because of their good price, but I'll step away from them.

Monte said:

..... Sure many many people buy tools from Aldi or Lidl, they`re cheap and many people are happy with them. But if you look closer you`ll find a lot of safety recalls like axes or hammers which looses their head, tools with rubber handles which can cause cancer (they contain "Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons" sometimes 1000 times higher than allowed !! if you use your hammer 1 hour its like you smoked 3500 cigarettes i just read)) .....

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PAH's....I learned something new today.
Article:http://www.bureauveritas.com/wps/wcm/connect/bv_com/group/home/about-us/our-business/our-business-consumer-products/regulatory_bulletins/cps+bulletin+08b-138/?presentationtemplate=bv_master/CPS_full_story_presentation

The following materials are examples that could contain PAHs:
> Elastomer (plastic and rubber material)
> Black or dark colored polymer
> Coatings and varnish
> Materials treated with conservation agents (naphthalene) (e.g. leather products, wood, bast and natural bristle)

Holy cow, we have Aldi here too, smallish grocery stores with odds and ends in the center aisle...cheap radios, TV's, beach umbrellas, never know what they'll have in that aisle.

Monte said:

where the release lever is mounted the right way (not the vise grip way)

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You said it!! I hate Vise-Grips!!

hey you have some nice aldi stuff over there... I want the pizzaz, the taco dinner kits , the crackers and the peanut trio bowl

http://aldi.us/us/html/offers/offers_01_25_2009_ENU_HTML.htm?WT.z_src=main

Who knew that Aldi wasn't a home-grown company? And I also assumed Trader Joe's was a US company too, although to be fair I've never been in a Trader Joe's store. I tend to shop at a local grocery store called Dierbergs, largely because they have shiny terrazzo floors...makes my wife nuts that my shopping decision is based on that.

www.dierbergs.com

Anyway, back to the tool situation...

Really interesting thread. We have an Aldi over near Ft Bragg. Kind of reminds me of Kroger in the late 70's early 80's where they sold anything they could get through the door.

Monte, I have read that in Germany, the birth rate for native born Germans is nagative and that Germany will have to increase the number of immigrants to make up for that. I would say more but I don't want this to turn into a political thread.

"...chainsaws which dont stop anymore..." LOL.

Coach

Coach James said:

Monte, I have read that in Germany, the birth rate for native born Germans is negative and that Germany will have to increase the number of immigrants to make up for that.

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I might have some German blood in me somewhere, I should help their government out and "hook up" with a German babe.

This looks cool.

Merkava_4 said:

I might have some German blood in me somewhere, I should help their government out and "hook up" with a German babe.

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Im a 100% German and I hope to visit the motherland soon....as for my wife she is a mutt....atleast when we have kids they will have atleast 50% respectability

Merkava_4 said:

I should help their government out and "hook up" with a German babe.

Click to expand...

dink said:

Im a 100% German...

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Well it appears you've "found" each other at last!

Intresting view on Aldi from Monte.
That honestly is not the case in the UK - I wonder if they stock different items ? Maybe they know that Brits will not accept the same bad quality as they can sell in their homeland.

The store has won a lot of awards for value-for-money and, while I have never bought electrical tools from them, I know plenty of people who have, and who recommend them.

...actually, the monitor I am using with my computer now came from Aldi - about a third less than anywhere else at the time and it's performed faultlessly for four years so far.

I bought years ago a cheap DREMEL copy from ALDI germany...tool with lot of accessories just 20,-Euro...and I'm satiesfied with it.

Same with a 10,- Euro digital-vernier caliper...works great, had just to replace the battery after 2 years

Sure...Aldi Tools are often ****! but for home use it's ok (not for pros).

Aldi is owned by 2 German brothers who are on the top wealthiest list in the world.

I dated a German born and rasied gal about a year ago. Her family is still there and she goes back every couple of years. Her thoughts are there have been alot people move into Germany from surrounding countries (some good some not so good)and German quality is not what it once was. Interesting her dad pays the same rent monthly $ for his apartment that he paid when they moved into it in 1960s. Then when it goes to someone else it will adjust to current levels.

Sorry back to tools

Just got this back from a German friend. He knows his tools, he's just rebuilt a 1970s Range Rover with no power tools at all...

"In Germany the things Aldi sell are usually quite OK (e.g. Tools
made by Mannesmann) and of equal or better quality than what you
get in the large DIY stores (Bauhaus, Praktiker, Obi, Hornbach).
Surely better than all the Chinese stuff you can get from ebay.
Compared to professional brands like Snap-On of course you will
notice a difference. "

The computers are actually very nice, the price is right too. The same goes for the food, they source everything locally, so Aldi north and Aldi south have different items, Aldi UK also . I wouldnt buy those "King craft" tools (Power craft" in UK ?) , my father buys everything they have like this 18 volt 1,5 AH 900 rpm cordless drill, but my Makita 12 volt (2 AH) easily outperforms it anyday. Sure it works but a 10 euro ratchet works too .....

Sometimes the sell "Targon" branded tools, they were made by Kress

So if i would buy something there than this. Made in germany/switzerland !

I have this minidrill from Brüder Mannesmann but the chuck ***** big time ( the tools will not stay in there) so i just bought a Proxxon Micromot and it works perfect. You can buy it at the Praktiker 20% sale for about 38 euro.
Made in EU. Lighter, and better to work with than the dremel too.

I dont know when i look in the big DIY stores i see brands like Kärcher, Steinel, Bosch, Metabo AEG, Matador,Knipex,Wera Wiha, Erdi, Bessey, Fein Multimaster, rebadged Felo screwdriver (LUX tools "Profi Plus") rebadged NWS pliers (Lux) , rebadged Sora screwdrivers ("Black+Decker" (Praktiker)) german made screwdrivers from connex/conmetall, Wisent(Bauhaus), etc. etc. Some stuff changed like the "Wisent" pliers which were made by Will (Knipex) but now says "Made in ROC"...
You wont find this at Aldi (in germany )

but my motto is: buy food at the food store, buy tools at the tool store

Monte said:

There are a couple of them over here “Obi”, “Hornbach”, “Praktiker”, “Bauhaus”, “Bahr” just to name the biggest.

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What's the reputation of Karstadt? It's like a sort of upscale Walmart or Target, no? (It's not difficult to be more upscale than Walmart obviously )

Plus american products are generally not considered quality products

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This isn't surprising, but it's f*cking depressing all the same

superautobacs said:

Thanks for you time!

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+1

tpolley said:

there's a manufacturer in germany that supplies... or supplied the green handled screw drivers for ames. last we checked that company said that the machine broke that made the green handled screw drivers and they weren't going to fix it. so no more screw drivers from that manufacturer. atleast that's what ames says. it seemed to be a popular tool, why would they just abandon it? of course ames could be FOS.

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These ??






They were made by "SKG Werkzeuge" www.skg-werkzeuge.de but it seems they dont manufacture the clear plastic screwdrivers anymore since they changed their handle design. They now look like this:




The old 2-component handle seems still available (but it dont show up in their catalog), there are sold here under the "Berner" brand.

Vinko said:

What's the reputation of Karstadt? It's like a sort of upscale Walmart or Target, no? (It's not difficult to be more upscale than Walmart obviously )

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Back in the days karstadt was like Walmart, but now its a bit more luxurious. Walmart left germany so we don`t have Wal-mart anymore. So i dont know what they offer now but back in the days the offered exactly the same stuff than the german markets "Toom" and "Real" so basically they were a average supermarket here (sold mostly Food ,clothes , some other stuff like bicycles) So karstadt is more like a department store without food and they sell higher priced stuff like Bosch or Miele washing machines and everything else.

But since Walmart is the biggest importer of chinese goods in the US i wonder if they sell any quality items...

By the way, although Facom is a French brand, and a top brand in Europe, they outsource almost all of their production to Taiwan. I have this direct from the horse's mouth because my company is a supplier to Virax, which is a sister company of Facom. I was told this by their head purchasing manager for the entire Stanley Europe group (Stanley owns Facom).
Facom competes with Snap-on for contracts with companies like Airbus.
The vast majority of their line is manufactured for them by various Taiwanese suppliers. The quality is still excellent and there are no compliants in the market of any decline in Facom quality. But still, I just thought people should know...

Most Wera products are also not made in Germany anymore.