Garage build delayed due to easements and property line discovery

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

I apologize for the length of this post....

I am (was going to) building a 24'W x 30'D detached garage. I hired a GC and he is only doing the shell. No plumbing, electrical, insulation, etc.

Well the garage was going to require some dirt work by removing part of a hill and building a retaining wall. Added expenses of course.

Well the builder did the dirt work and put in his form boards for the slab. The permit has already been pulled by the builder and the way I understand it, the building inspector has to check the form boards and other items before the slab can be poured. So the builder got a surveyor out to check the form boards and while he was out there, he checked the property lines. Well it turns out the property line is not near the fence that has been there since I bought my house (2012) and before my neighbor bought that house (2014). So him and I had always assumed (terrible, I know) that it was on or near the property line.

The property line is actually 5 or so feet INTO my side of the fence. The form boards that were put in are within inches of the newly discovered property line.

The easement/code is no buildings within 5' of the side lot line and a detached structure can't be within 10' of the home unless there are connected.

Well, I am 6 feet off the fence but a few inches off the property line. My neighbor has been very willing to sign off on whatever is needed from his end. We have become good friends since he moved in a year ago.

Ideally I could purchase that strip of land from him (5' x 310' approx) and call it good. Problem is two fold: 1) It would require the plat for the subdivision to be altered and that is time consuming and potentially expensive. 2) The real estate attorney I spoke with said that the lien holders for each home would have to sign off on it as well, since they are technically the property owners (plus his lot would shrink and mine would grow).

Instead I have submitted an application to build within the 5' easement. Since I have learned of the property line issue, I have spoken with the Head Building Inspector for my county a few times and also with the head of the Variance Board for the county. I have been upfront with them and told them I want to obviously do everything legally and what are my options. They have been very helpful and friendly and thanked me for getting the surveyor out there and going about it the proper way.

Now I have a mud pit (April showers) and half of my fence has been taken down so I can't let the dogs wander the backyard until I go in front of the Variance Board, which next meets on May 11th. I just missed the April meeting.

If my application is approved, I will likely have to go with a 22'W x 30'D garage. Which is better than nothing but was hoping for extra space on the sides for shelving and for more room upstairs (which I will finish out at a later time).

Now some pictures with rough measurements:

thewatusi · Apr 18, 2015

Better to figure it out now instead of years down the road when your nice neighbor sells his house to an *******.

sublimate · Apr 18, 2015

You may need to get an easement from your neighbor to allow that. That will still require that bank's consent (usually not hard) but overall much easier than buying the slice of property.

Also, surveys can be wrong sometimes. You should check what you can.
Your deed or plat should have the width of your property. Check and measure from the other property line (at least where you think it is). If it's 5' off maybe there's an error.

There's also different levels of surveys depending on if they actually dig up sections markers or just go off closer reference points. Ask what they did.

Reseda · Apr 18, 2015

Are you sure that the 5' setback is required for a detached garage? I know it is required for a dwelling unit, any kind of accessory building, or a garage with a second story recreational room. Where I am, zoning allows a detached garage to be right on the property line. Might be something to look into if your code has a similar provision.

*Edit
After re-reading your post, I see that the garage will have a second level, which is what's triggering the setback requirements. If this was strictly a single story garage then there's chance that it can be on the property line.

NUTTSGT · Apr 18, 2015

You'll wish you had that extra 2' once the garage is built. I'd take a serious look at buying the 5' strip. What's a few more months delay if you're there for the next 20 years ?

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

thewatusi said:
Better to figure it out now instead of years down the road when your nice neighbor sells his house to an *******.

There was an ******* that was in the house until last summer when this guy moved in so I agree.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

sublimate said:
You may need to get an easement from your neighbor to allow that. That will still require that bank's consent (usually not hard) but overall much easier than buying the slice of property.

Also, surveys can be wrong sometimes. You should check what you can.

Your deed or plat should have the width of your property. Check and measure from the other property line (at least where you think it is). If it's 5' off maybe there's an error.

There's also different levels of surveys depending on if they actually dig up sections markers or just go off closer reference points. Ask what they did.

I have gotten the "official" plat of my lot and also of my neighborhood. They both say the same thing. That the property line is along the side of my driveway. The builder poured the driveway up to the property line evidently. The Planning and Building Commission told me that is not uncommon. It is only "structures" that have to abide by the 5' easement.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

Reseda said:
Are you sure that the 5' setback is required for a detached garage? I know it is required for a dwelling unit, any kind of accessory building, or a garage with a second story recreational room. Where I am, zoning allows a detached garage to be right on the property line. Might be something to look into if your code has a similar provision.

*Edit
After re-reading your post, I see that the garage will have a second level, which is what's triggering the setback requirements. If this was strictly a single story garage then there's chance that it can be on the property line.

The second story never came up in conversation with the county and I was told that any "structure" (I am guessing that requires a slab) must abide by the 5' easement.

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Charles (in GA) · Apr 18, 2015

When I look at property, I walk off the lines, identify pins and lines and potential problems. Neither you or your neighbor did due diligence when purchasing the properties, or this out of place fence would have been discovered.

Charles

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

NUTTSGT said:
You'll wish you had that extra 2' once the garage is built. I'd take a serious look at buying the 5' strip. What's a few more months delay if you're there for the next 20 years ?

I suppose I could push the issue after the garage is done (assuming I get permission to build 1' off of the property line). I could start the process just to make the fence and lot lines "clean."

When I went up the the Planning and Building Commission office, I brought this option up to them and they seemed to act like it might not be feasible so I'm not sure if they just didn't want to go through that or what.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

Charles (in GA) said:
When I look at property, I walk off the lines, identify pins and lines and potential problems. Neither you or your neighbor did due diligence when purchasing the properties, or this out of place fence would have been discovered.

Charles

We all learn lessons in life.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

This is my lot I got from the county records after this was discovered.

It shows the property line on the edge of the driveway.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1429410092.884924.jpg

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97fordsuper · Apr 18, 2015

Gcrop said:
We all learn lessons in life.

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That't right. I learned a lot of things I would check and do differently when I purchased my home (1st home).

We can't all be as smart as some people.

Scott r c · Apr 18, 2015

I had to go before a variance board to build my shop closer than allowed by zoning rules. It will help big time if the neighbor affected shows up with you at the hearing and is in your corner. You also need a compelling reason to keep it where you want it. It will help of you exaggerate the cost and trouble it would take to move building line. I got exactly what I wanted, which was to build within 15' of my back property line instead of the 30' line the zoning rules stated.

Kaizen · Apr 18, 2015

my neighbor got a variance for his garage 1 foot from my property line. It was before I was here but I know its possible here. Buying 5 feet might have a lot of cost to it. lawyers and all to draw it up and record it on the books.
I'm seeing a 4 car detached way down back behind the pool.

John in OH · Apr 18, 2015

Have you given close consideration to finding some creative way to move your left side wall closer to your pool and incorporating the new garage wall into the pool surround? Maybe eliminate the iron fence and replace with the garage wall somehow? You may still need a variance for the property line, but you would have made the chances of approval better by having shown a real effort at moving the garage.

What is all that piping and stuff directly behind the proposed garage location?

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

Scott r c said:
I had to go before a variance board to build my shop closer than allowed by zoning rules. It will help big time if the neighbor affected shows up with you at the hearing and is in your corner. You also need a compelling reason to keep it where you want it. It will help of you exaggerate the cost and trouble it would take to move building line. I got exactly what I wanted, which was to build within 15' of my back property line instead of the 30' line the zoning rules stated.

If I asked my neighbor to go, I am sure he would. I need a signed letter stating his approval if he is unable to go. But I agree, I need to buy him some beer or something to up the ante.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

Kaizen said:
my neighbor got a variance for his garage 1 foot from my property line. It was before I was here but I know its possible here. Buying 5 feet might have a lot of cost to it. lawyers and all to draw it up and record it on the books.

I'm seeing a 4 car detached way down back behind the pool.

I have spoken to a real estate attorney and he agreed it would be pretty expensive and time consuming to buy the strip of land. This is why I am trying this method first. If I get denied, I can go to a 1 car garage I suppose but probably won't do that. I'm not sure.

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CNGsaves · Apr 18, 2015

Both you and neighbor were under "assumption" that property on your side of fence was indeed yours. Thus, neighbor was NOT expecting on getting any additional land. However, fence was not on property line.

SOLUTION: Buy the 5 ft of land. Jump on opportunity since you have an understandable neighbor now. You'll never get this chance again. No one ever wants a smaller garage. You do NOT want a garage right next to fence even if you get the variance approved.

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

John in OH said:
Have you given close consideration to finding some creative way to move your left side wall closer to your pool and incorporating the new garage wall into the pool surround? Maybe eliminate the iron fence and replace with the garage wall somehow? You may still need a variance for the property line, but you would have made the chances of approval better by having shown a real effort at moving the garage.

What is all that piping and stuff directly behind the proposed garage location?

The iron fence will go away once the garage is there. The garage will also have an extended overhang (towards the pool) with columns to give the effect of a pool house. There is going to be concrete/washed pea gravel between the garage and the pool and of course extending the driveway. That was the plan anyway.

Even if I get the 1' variance, I will likely have to shrink the garage to 22' wide. The right form board is on the property line so if I moved that in 1' (for variance) and 1' on the pool side, it would make me legal and give me an extra foot of patio under the overhang.

I don't want the left side of the garage to be behind the house as it would look very awkward and impact the accessibility to the garage for vehicles. Plus I didn't want the man doors on the left side to open up into the pool. haha.

That is the pool pump and filter directly behind the garage location and then behind that is a retaining wall.

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Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

CNGsaves said:
Both you and neighbor were under "assumption" that property on your side of fence was indeed yours. Thus, neighbor was NOT expecting on getting any additional land. However, fence was not on property line.

SOLUTION: Buy the 5 ft of land. Jump on opportunity since you have an understandable neighbor now. You'll never get this chance again. No one ever wants a smaller garage. You do NOT want a garage right next to fence even if you get the variance approved.

I agree that owning that difference would be ideal. I'm just not even sure it is feasible. County and both banks would have to sign off on it plus the $$$. The garage was never going to be against the fence, variance or not.

If I get the variance approved and the garage built, I will test those waters on purchasing the land.

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CNGsaves · Apr 18, 2015

Same thing happened to my dad when property was surveyed before fence was installed. Ended up the north side was off and put house only 1 ft from property line. For 50+ years fence on north side was at 5 ft setback but the "official" county records did not match up. Neighbor to north sold the 4 ft strip for $10 to my dad !!

On south side (where new fence was going up), that line was off as well but other direction and got about 8 to 10 ft MORE land to south !! That side had never really had a permanent fence so property line was nebulous/unclear.

Now cedar fence with steel posts set in concrete clearly mark the south boundary line after nearly 20 years. Junky neighbor to south didn't care about land, but didn't want to share in any cost of fence so dad took care of that . . . and made sure county property records now matched fence lines!!

OP . . .. Agreement between the two property owners can cut out whole slew of bureaucracy and attorneys. I'd take neighbor out for nice supper and discuss solution of YOU buying the 5 ft of land. Leave the fence right where it is . . . and FIX the land surveys to match !!! That way your larger garage can go in !!

sublimate · Apr 18, 2015

Gcrop said:
This is my lot I got from the county records after this was discovered.

It shows the property line on the edge of the driveway.

Your lot is deep. Why not push it back farther to make it wider AND the right distance away from your neighbor?
I think you'll regret it if you shoehorn something too small in.

Scott r c · Apr 18, 2015

Gcrop said:
If I asked my neighbor to go, I am sure he would. I need a signed letter stating his approval if he is unable to go. But I agree, I need to buy him some beer or something to up the ante.

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I paid 400 bucks for a abstract company to put an official notice in the paper, post a legal sign in my yard, and notify any landowner within 300 yards of my property. It gives every one ample time to complain if they want.

Gcrop · Apr 18, 2015

CNGsaves said:
Same thing happened to my dad when property was surveyed before fence was installed. Ended up the north side was off and put house only 1 ft from property line. For 50+ years fence on north side was at 5 ft setback but the "official" county records did not match up. Neighbor to north sold the 4 ft strip for $10 to my dad !!

On south side (where new fence was going up), that line was off as well but other direction and got about 8 to 10 ft MORE land to south !! That side had never really had a permanent fence so property line was nebulous/unclear.

Now cedar fence with steel posts set in concrete clearly mark the south boundary line after nearly 20 years. Junky neighbor to south didn't care about land, but didn't want to share in any cost of fence so dad took care of that . . . and made sure county property records now matched fence lines!!

OP . . .. Agreement between the two property owners can cut out whole slew of bureaucracy and attorneys. I'd take neighbor out for nice supper and discuss solution of YOU buying the 5 ft of land. Leave the fence right where it is . . . and FIX the land surveys to match !!! That way your larger garage can go in !!

Was your Dad's house in a subdivision? From what was explained to me, the subdivision plat would have to be changed and they acted like it would be unlikely that they would do that. I didn't press the question so I'm not 100% sure.

And considering the lots would change sizes, I am guessing the real estate attorney is correct in that the lie holders would have to sign off on it as well.

I would be more than willing to pay the $1,000 or whatever the land value comes to. A surveyor would also need to be paid to make things official.

I think many more people have to get involved than just me and the neighbor.

The fence isn't being moved regardless of what happens though.

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Gcrop · Apr 19, 2015

sublimate said:
Your lot is deep. Why not push it back farther to make it wider AND the right distance away from your neighbor?

I think you'll regret it if you shoehorn something too small in.

Because half of my backyard is woods and more importantly, it is on an elevation that is 6 feet or so higher than the house and pool. There is a retaining wall in place and the driveway would have to be extended 50-75 feet into the backyard. Just not logistically feasible.

If it goes in with the variance approved, then it won't be shoehorned in. It will actually be 7 feet or so from the fence line and 8-10 feet from the pool. Only downfall is going from 24' wide to 22' wide. Plus side is it would increase the size of the patio overhang.

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redm18 · Apr 19, 2015

I would look up adverse possession laws in your state. I think they exist for this kind of thing.

Gcrop · Apr 19, 2015

Scott r c said:
I paid 400 bucks for a abstract company to put an official notice in the paper, post a legal sign in my yard, and notify any landowner within 300 yards of my property. It gives every one ample time to complain if they want.

Every neighbor within 500 feet of my property will receive a notice in the mail stating what my application is requesting and that the May 11th board meeting is a public hearing and anyone can come and listen/argue against it. We plan on talking with the neighbors about what we are doing before they get that in the mail. Some of them already know about it all.

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gazza · Apr 19, 2015

Just curious, is it only your side fence that is 5' out? A mate of mine bought a 1 acre property that was a long skinny block, house and land been there for more than 50 odd years, new neighbour next door buys the same size block then finds out his fence line actually goes through my mates garage, the back corner of the block was just over 20' out of square. Neighbor tried to force the demolition of the garage and realign the fence, problem was that all 12x 1 acre blocks were out of alignment by the same amount. It turned into a real expensive bun fight as all land owners had to agree to realign the fences and pay all the costs involved, common sense ruled and they all got together and forced the realignment of the plans leaving all of the lots as they appeared, how they inspected and bought them. Took about 3 years though to sort it out.

sublimate · Apr 19, 2015

redm18 said:
I would look up adverse possession laws in your state. I think they exist for this kind of thing.

So he can steal land from his nice neighbor who's trying to be helpful?

Gcrop · Apr 19, 2015

redm18 said:
I would look up adverse possession laws in your state. I think they exist for this kind of thing.

Not applicable. I am friends with the guy and willing to pay for the land.

I did look up the law for informational purposes and it requires me to own my property for 10 years and having paid taxes on the land in question for at least 2 years. There are other requirements but that was the main one.

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Gcrop · Apr 19, 2015

gazza said:
Just curious, is it only your side fence that is 5' out? A mate of mine bought a 1 acre property that was a long skinny block, house and land been there for more than 50 odd years, new neighbour next door buys the same size block then finds out his fence line actually goes through my mates garage, the back corner of the block was just over 20' out of square. Neighbor tried to force the demolition of the garage and realign the fence, problem was that all 12x 1 acre blocks were out of alignment by the same amount. It turned into a real expensive bun fight as all land owners had to agree to realign the fences and pay all the costs involved, common sense ruled and they all got together and forced the realignment of the plans leaving all of the lots as they appeared, how they inspected and bought them. Took about 3 years though to sort it out.

Wow, that sounds like it was a massive headache for everyone.

The surveyor marked all 4 corners of my lot and it looks right. Compared to the county's recorded plat anyway.

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sd171 · Apr 20, 2015

Gcrop said:
I don't want the left side of the garage to be behind the house as it would look very awkward and impact the accessibility to the garage for vehicles. Plus I didn't want the man doors on the left side to open up into the pool.

I'm not sure all of this is true. My garage is 24' wide, and I really wouldn't want to shrink it to 22'. That extra 2' is the difference between comfortable and tight - especially if you want to park a full-size truck inside. It also makes it easier to fit an indoor staircase.

Take a look at the site plan for my garage:

View media item 72227
My garage is overlapped much more with the house than yours would be (although it's also farther back on the lot), and I still have no problem getting cars inside. In fact, I think it's easier to park the left-hand car than it is the right-hand one. When you approach at an angle from the center of the driveway, it's easier to get the vehicle close to the wall without clipping the mirror on the garage door opening. Our right-hand approach is straight-on, and that car always ends up closer to the mid-line of the garage than the left-hand car that approaches at an angle. I do have to swing the left-hand car wide while inside the garage, but I got used to that pretty quickly.

It may be true that it looks a little awkward to have the garage overlapping the house, but you might want to drive around the neighborhood and look at similar arrangements to see if it's really noticeable.

Gcrop · Apr 20, 2015

You are right that it is completely subjective on the aesthetics of having the garage sit slightly behind the house.

My reservation on doing this is 3 fold though. Aesthetics, functionality and pool location.

The plan (for now) is to have an extended overhang (4:12 pitch) for a covered patio on the side of the garage. Moving it over would eliminate that porch and it would have the man door on the side of the garage open up into the pool.

All in all, moving it behind the corner of the house is just not an option. I didn't want to reduce the width to 22' but my Dad's detached (which I have spent a LOT of time in) and my direct neighbor's garage are both 22' wide. It really reduced the storage I was planning on having on the sides but it is better than going to a 1 car garage. Neither my Dad's or my neighbor's is 30' deep though so that will help. I also hate that it will take away from the room upstairs. It is what it is though.

Luckily one of my vehicles I will be storing in there is a Suzuki Samurai (10' long and 6' wide) so it will take up minimal space.

Todd.Brock · Apr 20, 2015

On my township, resididential has to be 10 ft on inhabited side or 5 ft on uninhabited side. (Garage). I too learned this spring to look closer at surveys and where property lines fall. My neighbor and I had surveys done and their property was 7'7'' from my garage. We agreed on me purchasing 11' x80' so I can still have a side yard. They put up a fence, and I have one more neighbor go work with. I will have to have plot surveyed, and each house will have to be re-deeded. Mine won't b/c it's not changing size. I will own a second plot or cutout as the county called it. This is all part of a 7-11 transfer between 2 neighbors. The county engineer said if it's a 7-11 they don't really care. The deeds are the tricky part. They have to deed the new land to me, and then do a deed from themselves to themselves for the smaller property. It's going to be expensive and a pain in the *** but I have to jump on it while neighbor is in agreement. Newest neighbor is moving in so I need to wait a bit before I say, hi welcome... Wanna part with a 10x20 corner of your property?

This was a learning lesson on a lot of people's parts. Fort my uncle is real estate attorney....

Here is a pic of the situTion. Fort. We hVe really nice neighbors. The second neighbor I haven't talked to is the bottom left. I want to see if they will sell me a triangle shape from the fence line down our side yard.

Gcrop · Apr 20, 2015

That is great feedback Brock. Ideally I would like to go that route, especially since (like you stated) I have a more than willing neighbor. Buying the land between the soon to be garage and the fence line (5' x 310' or so) would be ideal for any possible future neighbors or me selling my house.

Question, did you lien holder have to sign off on that? What about your neighbor's lien holder? My real estate attorney said that it is a likelihood. I am guessing property values changing with lot sizes plays a part.

I was also informed that the subdivision plat would have to be altered and the county doesn't like to do that. So still some questions there.

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Todd.Brock · Apr 20, 2015

My uncle , township or anyone else didn't mention lien holders. It makes sense though. a 7-11 ( or whatever it's called is ) a transfer between two neighbors. County engineer will see it doesn't affect right of way, drainage, etc. so they won't have issue. So I am told by their office. The new cutout will need a survey and the houses will need property surveys and a new legal description so it can be recorded. I believe that since the neighbor with fence was surveyed at same time as mine, it would be 400 bucks new cutout and 600 for newest neighbor. Deed and transfer fees are all minimal at county. We are still in the friendly hand shake phase since they had twins 6 weeks early, last week and new neighbors have not yet fully moved in.

G McKay · Apr 20, 2015

I hate to tell you this but I'd move the forms and start over. I wouldn't want my building that close to the line. If some neighbor builds a building 5 feet from his line in the future, that means he'll be able to jump across onto your roof. Right?

At least that's the way you buyer will think if you decide to sell it some day.

:dunno:

Gcrop · Apr 20, 2015

Todd.Brock said:
My uncle , township or anyone else didn't mention lien holders. It makes sense though. a 7-11 ( or whatever it's called is ) a transfer between two neighbors. County engineer will see it doesn't affect right of way, drainage, etc. so they won't have issue. So I am told by their office. The new cutout will need a survey and the houses will need property surveys and a new legal description so it can be recorded. I believe that since the neighbor with fence was surveyed at same time as mine, it would be 400 bucks new cutout and 600 for newest neighbor. Deed and transfer fees are all minimal at county. We are still in the friendly hand shake phase since they had twins 6 weeks early, last week and new neighbors have not yet fully moved in.

Thanks for that feedback. Sounds more promising than the hypotheticals I have been told.

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Gcrop · Apr 20, 2015

G McKay said:
I hate to tell you this but I'd move the forms and start over. I wouldn't want my building that close to the line. If some neighbor builds a building 5 feet from his line in the future, that means he'll be able to jump across onto your roof. Right?

At least that's the way you buyer will think if you decide to sell it some day.

The forms in the pictures will be moved regardless. I understand your concern though. Ideally I do what the previous poster was mentioning and buy that strip of land.

Legally my neighbor could come on my side of the fence and plant anything he wants or even put a small storage shed.

I will do my best to buy the land though so everything cleaner.

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Garage build delayed due to easements and property line discovery

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