Slab is poured, tell me what you think (pic heavy)

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

Seriously, I'm looking for unbiased opinions. cards are out on the table, let me know what you think.

This is for a 30x40x12 steel beam building with a 8' lean to on one 40' wall and a 2' gap pad between the building and fence making the slab a 40x40.

I/we had a pretty poor experience with getting this slab poured. I will not go into detail, but it's done now and there are some concerns about the craftsmanship. I believe the concrete quality is good and the integrity of the slab is overall sound due to the dirt work and re-bar lay. The surface finishing is nice and level and smooth, it just looks sloppy around the edges and especially around the anchor bolts. I was able to clean up a little bit, so there are some more after photos to come in a later post. But is there anything to be detrimentally worried about?

I would get someone local to come by and look at it, but I fear any other foundation engineer will snarl at this quality and just say that his would've been better....so what? Or if I got someone in the slab repair business they'll try convince me to get things fixed; a sales pitch if you will.

My biggest fear is if the building erectors come to do their job and say they cannot build a building on this slab because of reasons X,Y,Z.
Before the pour: 40x40 slab. 2'x1' beams around perimeter with 1.5'X1' beams across the center top to bottom and left to right. Re-bar is 1/2" (#4) and 16" on center.

The day after the pour:

I keep telling myself that once the building is bolted down the sloppiest spots will be covered and they'll never be notice again. Does that seem feasible?

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

6 weeks after the pour and a little curing time with all this rain in SE Texas

Those small forms you see was a section that was missed by the concrete guys and I had to make flush with the rest f the floor because it butts up to a framed opening and needed a spot for two missed anchor bolts.

A total of 5 bolts were missed; four 5/8" bolts for one of the 12' framed openings for a roll up door, and one 3/4" bolt was missed in a beam foot location. We'll have to drill and use wedge types bolts in those places. I blame those bolts being missed due to the pouring and finalization not taking place until 11 pm. That's all part of the fiasco that I won't go into too much detail just yet.

I'm still just looking for anyone's honest opinion.

Anchor bolt sloppiness

This is the worst one. Before:

After

bannerd · Jun 22, 2015

A structure is only as good as the foundation. If it was me, I would tell the concrete guys to dig it back up and re-pour. Rain, Temp and humidity all affects how well the concrete will cure.

If that is not an option, you'll have to deal with it.

johninct · Jun 22, 2015

I noticed that you only had bolts. I had "L" shaped anchor bolts and welded an extension to the "L". I had a defective truss that caused the building to collapse due to excessive snow and those "L" anchor bolts with extensions pulled right out.

CooperFarm · Jun 22, 2015

So, if I read correctly, they poured at 11pm? Or they finished pouring at 11pm? Did someone stick around all night to float it when it was ready? I would not be happy at all with that pour, especially given the situation with the missing bolts and the orientation of the ones that are there. I second the re-pour.

MagKarl · Jun 22, 2015

Did you have to have any inspections? Do you have engineer stamped foundation plans you can compare to?

Lots of rebar, but I'm surprised at the lack of prep in removing sod and topsoil, no compacted gravel base?

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

johninct said:
I noticed that you only had bolts. I had "L" shaped anchor bolts and welded an extension to the "L". I had a defective truss that caused the building to collapse due to excessive snow and those "L" anchor bolts with extensions pulled right out.

Those 16" bolts were purchased from the building manufacturer and engineered to be the strongest holding option for this project.

CooperFarm said:
So, if I read correctly, they poured at 11pm? Or they finished pouring at 11pm? Did someone stick around all night to float it when it was ready? I would not be happy at all with that pour, especially given the situation with the missing bolts and the orientation of the ones that are there. I second the re-pour.

They were on day 3 when they poured. That started around 1pm that day. Concrete truck schedule and spotty management caused them to be all finished at 11pm. It was vibrated and floated and smoothed out nicely. I was expecting to see gaps and cavities when the forms were removed , but that wasn't the case, to my surprise everything looked good. To me that is, I'm not a concrete or slab expert.

Let's consider that a repour isn't possible. Based on the pics, does it look like the foundation can be used? I know the concrete around the bolts is sloppy, no doubt, but if a beam can stab over them even if some bending is needed, can I use this slab?

wyliebrent · Jun 22, 2015

You need to have them fix/replace that slap. Nothing looks proper or vibrated. The worst pic is not even secure. A mini sledge and you could knock out the corner easily. That patch job is cosmetic only and adds no strength to that poor pour.

78scotts · Jun 22, 2015

I would tell them to tear it up and repour it. Then when they have it torn up tell them to take a hike and get a different crew.

404 · Jun 22, 2015

Did they run short of concrete? Use of bolts not legit:

http://www.williamsform.com/Concret...ncrete_Anchors/cast-in-place_con_anchors.html

Rebar should encircle the correct anchors in the corners. Rebar should be off of the plastic.

Looks like hell to me.

nfk · Jun 22, 2015

I agree with the above poster. That slab looks rough.

chase237 · Jun 22, 2015

<<<< Not a concrete guy, but

I would be concerned. The corner you describe as the worst, is it filled with some sort of mix and worked smooth? Is this the same corner built over turf. Seems to me the whole perimeter of anchors should have been placed over footings instead of just hangin outside the footings. Rebar looks tied in but I wouldn't think that is enough.

You should consider seeking opinions from the manufacturers architect if there is such a thing.

yaidunno · Jun 22, 2015

The footing around the perimeter appears to be poured on top of uncompacted top soil and grass! I'm far from a concrete expert, but i would have called the concrete company and told them to stop the trucks right then and there. Their method of supporting the bolts during the pour leaves no room for finishing, or even ensuring that the concrete made its way to the forms (which it clearly didn't). The rebar is also not supported. I would tend to think that it would be towards the center of the slab instead of laying on the ground for optimal strength. Perhaps they did this during the pour though?

low_crew_cab · Jun 22, 2015

404 said:
Did they run short of concrete? Use of bolts not legit:

http://www.williamsform.com/Concret...ncrete_Anchors/cast-in-place_con_anchors.html

Rebar should encircle the correct anchors in the corners. Rebar should be off of the plastic.

Looks like hell to me.

Couldn't of said it any better.

I would also hope they were not paid in full before completion.

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

chase237 said:
<<<< Not a concrete guy, but

I would be concerned. The corner you describe as the worst, is it filled with some sort of mix and worked smooth? Is this the same corner built over turf. Seems to me the whole perimeter of anchors should have been placed over footings instead of just hangin outside the footings. Rebar looks tied in but I wouldn't think that is enough.

You should consider seeking opinions from the manufacturers architect if there is such a thing.

That corner had to be chipped down about three quarters of an inch to be flush with the rest of the floor. Then yes I smoothed it out as best I could with some 5,000 psi mix. That is not the corner where the bolts are over turf.

That corner over turf concerned me, but it is just a corner of the lean-to, not one of the main building walls. All the other bolt locations are over footers or beams.

I asked all these concerning questions to the slab engineer, but he always seemed like they were non-issues and showed confidence to me in his own work. I took his word since this is his occupation and not mine.

Good idea about asking the building manufacturer if their engineer can provide some insight.

bannerd · Jun 22, 2015

The concrete doesn't look like it was mixed properly either. Was this from a pump truck?

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

yaidunno said:
The footing around the perimeter appears to be poured on top of uncompacted top soil and grass! I'm far from a concrete expert, but i would have called the concrete company and told them to stop the trucks right then and there. Their method of supporting the bolts during the pour leaves no room for finishing, or even ensuring that the concrete made its way to the forms (which it clearly didn't). The rebar is also not supported. I would tend to think that it would be towards the center of the slab instead of laying on the ground for optimal strength. Perhaps they did this during the pour though?

They did lift the rebar square yard by square yard and "suspended" it in the concrete after as it was poured. This was a part of their tamping method and again, I questioned this and expressed my concern, but this "expert" crew made it out to be the norm for them. They all grabbed the long rebar lifting hooks almost in unison and led me to believe it was the way to do it.

John in OH · Jun 22, 2015

MagKarl said:
Did you have to have any inspections? Do you have engineer stamped foundation plans you can compare to?

Lots of rebar, but I'm surprised at the lack of prep in removing sod and topsoil, no compacted gravel base?

wyliebrent said:
You need to have them fix/replace that slap. Nothing looks proper or vibrated. The worst pic is not even secure. A mini sledge and you could knock out the corner easily. That patch job is cosmetic only and adds no strength to that poor pour.

chase237 said:
<<<< Not a concrete guy, but

I would be concerned. The corner you describe as the worst, is it filled with some sort of mix and worked smooth? Is this the same corner built over turf. Seems to me the whole perimeter of anchors should have been placed over footings instead of just hangin outside the footings. Rebar looks tied in but I wouldn't think that is enough.

You should consider seeking opinions from the manufacturers architect if there is such a thing.

Wow, that is one ugly pour!! I concur with the above comments.

I'm no structural engineer, but it seems to me you have to look at two basic loading situations. First, is the foundation with the bolts not being over the beams adequate to support the vertical dead weight of the building? Concrete has no tensile strength so having the vertical dead load cantilevered out beyond the beams may be a problem.

Second, and the issue of perhaps more concern, will (what appears to be) the minimal engagement of the bolts, be adequate for the shearing or vertical "up" loads that the building may experience from wind loads .... for which Texas is well known. Cosmetic repairs as shown in your "worst case" pics provide no strength.

I can sure see where having the slab torn up and re-poured may not be practical as you probably don't have any leverage over the contractor to do so .... unless a local building inspector is involved.

A "possible" repair might be to dig down about 3' at each set of bolts, chip our the concrete around the bolts and rebar, then form up a vertical pier and repour so as to create a concrete post under each set of bolts (or at least the worst bolt sets). This would provide more strength both vertical up and down.

As Chase237 has suggested, you should contact the supplier of the building you are purchasing and see if they can have one of their engineers inspect your bolt situation and give a professional opinion.

wyliebrent · Jun 22, 2015

I would doubt the building engineers input would help. Im sure their contract says your responsible to get a slab poured to x specs. If you want peace of mind you need to provide your pics and specs to a 3rd party slab engineer and youll be out of pocket. If his results say its good and to what you and your concrete contractor agreed to in writting then ok. If not you go back to concrete contractor and hope he is good on his contract and carries a insurance policy for this type of thing.
Did you check your concrete guys references,insurance coverage,bbb rating, or was he lowest bid?

Zeke · Jun 22, 2015

matemike said:
They did lift the rebar square yard by square yard and "suspended" it in the concrete after as it was poured. This was a part of their tamping method and again, I questioned this and expressed my concern, but this "expert" crew made it out to be the norm for them. They all grabbed the long rebar lifting hooks almost in unison and led me to believe it was the way to do it.

I've seen it done that way but not too impressed. It's a short cut that can work if the finishers are diligent. I don't see a lot of diligence there. That's too bad but maybe grinding the thing will help cosmetically. From a structural standpoint the digging down idea works for me.

Not specifically a concrete guy but I've been in the business 45 years and it never ceases to amaze me that there are so many bad contractors. But when I go to preach about it all I hear is what does it cost. I'm so glad that I'm all but retired.

Toolfool · Jun 22, 2015

Did you go with the cheapest steel building and cheapest concrete contractor you could find ? If so, you got what you paid for.

readhead · Jun 22, 2015

I am a building erector and I would not put a building on that foundation. That is some pretty ugly work. Were there any inspections? You can have a NDT testing service come out and do a pull test on the bolts and see what happens.

I have seen this before and you have a couple of options. Replace all the concrete or come in 8" to 12" and sawcut and remove the footings. Save the slab and redo the footings. Hopefully the guy has insurance that you can go after to redo the work.

Was there an engineered foundation design?

readhead · Jun 22, 2015

I just looked at the pictures again and noticed that the trench was not dug all the way to the edge of the form . There are places that the anchor bolts probably have little or no concrete around them. There does not seem to be any enlarged piers at the column locations. Some of the bolts don't seem to be projecting out of the slab far enough. Was there any soil testing or evaluation done.

Have you checked it with a builders level? Is it flat and level?

I hope you have not paid yet. You should be having a serious talk with the concrete guy. I am glad you took pictures because that will help your case down the road.

You obviously had concerns because you took the pictures. For all the other folks that find themselves in a similar situation you need to take control. Don't let the contractor try to convince you it is ok. Stop the work and get a second opinion.

rieferman · Jun 22, 2015

Toolfool said:
Did you go with the cheapest steel building and cheapest concrete contractor you could find ? If so, you got what you paid for.

Very helpful post. (sarcasm). At least wait for him to answer how he selected this crew before piling on.

pcmeiners · Jun 22, 2015

This contractor should not been allowed to pour. No support piers, unbelievable. Piers should have been poured first, anchors set, then compaction, gravel, more compaction. Love the "anchors", bet not one is lined up correctly, I can see they are all at different angles, so all support plates would need to be fabricated individually ( if the anchors were usable), no less novices know to cover "anchor" threads with something. As mentioned before, without piers the biggest danger is wind,.... to much liability without piers.

johndeereman · Jun 22, 2015

Holy cow tear that **** out it look's horrible. Sorry but it is true

bobmulry · Jun 22, 2015

Ray Charles can see that work is substandard and dangerous to erect trusses on.....

No permits?????

No inspections??????

Looks like a re-do to me....

I don't think that anybody would take responsibility for a building on that slab..

Bob

930dreamer · Jun 22, 2015

That slab doesn't look good, is it even 4" thick? I hope you still owe the concrete person money because that's the only way they'll redo it.

matemike · Jun 22, 2015

Well that about sums up the response I was expecting on here. Thanks everyone.

This was done by a friend of a friend. He doesn't answer phone calls now. I'm pissed, but what the heck can I do? I'm the one who's failed at this. No contracts, just some notes and sketches on loose leaf paper. My mistake #1. He came well recommended from a few guys I know and go to church with. He wasn't the highest bidder, but I still don't think he was cheap. He was the only bid that was ready to get started about any time I needed. So I went with a gut decision and got this. I've already paid in full for his work and had to schedule and pay for the concrete on my own. My mistakes 2 and 3. That's all extra parts of the fiasco which I thought I could handle because my profession is setting up jobs and planning work orders all whole following a budget. This concrete biz is a whole different animal.

The company I've scheduled to erect the building will come do me a favor and make a pre job visit to ensure they can do the job right. This is all as a favor as I said and I won't invest anything with them unless the building can be built. If it's a no go, then I'm out the slab cost. I can either get the down payment back on the building or have them hold it until who knows when if I decide to go with the correcting route out of pocket.

readhead · Jun 22, 2015

If the building is built chances of getting your deposit back are pretty slim. If the concrete guy has insurance you can make a claim.

I think at this point I would arrange a meeting with a structural engineer at the site to see if any of this can be saved, replaced or repaired. Your pictures will help a lot.

buddyboy · Jun 22, 2015

friend of a friend makes it tough

the least this guy should do is give you back any money he put in his pocket.

your friend should 'shame' his friend into at least doing that.

honestly I don't know how the guy didn't do that already.

buddyboy · Jun 22, 2015

oh by the way, this isn't your fault, so stop blaming yourself

you don't pour concrete for a living, you asked around, got some quotes, got references and then this friend of a friend screwed you over BIG TIME.

hind sight is 20/20 but that don't mean it's your fault

Firebird 1 · Jun 22, 2015

I am a GC and have erected many structural steel buildings. I don't think the slab looks all that bad, however, the anchor bolts leave a lot to be desired. I always have my guys use double templates on the bolts it helps to keep them square and plumb when pouring concrete. The bolts don't look adequate to me, I would like to see a j hook bolt with a rebar cage around the bolts themselves, and we always use "hairpin" rebar from the centre of the bolts extended out into the slab. The slab is used for "ballast" to the building to help with uplift. An erector should put leveling plates at each anchor point to level the base of the building, not relying on the slab to be perfect, so the rough areas around the bolts should not really be a problem. It looks like some of the bolts are short, not tall enough out of the slab to allow this though. They also look like they might be out of alignment which will cause problems. I would have the steel/building erector look at the site before they show up for work to give his opinions on a fix.

404 · Jun 22, 2015

Dig and pour a proper foundation around this "thing" and go to the next larger size building.
The good news is that the grass/turf under the concrete will form a lip or ledge to lock into the existing work.

John in OH · Jun 22, 2015

404 said:
Dig and pour a proper foundation around this "thing" and go to the next larger size building.
The good news is that the grass/turf under the concrete will form a lip or ledge to lock into the existing work.

Not a bad idea!!!!

CNGsaves · Jun 22, 2015

404 said:
Dig and pour a proper foundation around this "thing" and go to the next larger size building.
The good news is that the grass/turf under the concrete will form a lip or ledge to lock into the existing work.

^ ^ This . . . . . AND . . . . all on the nickel of the wanna-be concrete guy. He NEEDS to pay to correct that mess, or be forced to fix with Small Claims Lawsuit . . . . "friend of a friend" or not . . . business is business. He took your money and said he knew what the hell he was doing . . . . . . NOT !!!

ozyborn · Jun 22, 2015

Maybe here is an idea. Concrete saw. cut around the entire edge the width of the "footing. MY guess is about 12-16" Then tear all that out. Digg down and pour real footings. around the edges and corners.
Those bolts? I would never use them. L shaped anchor minimum. For each anchor bolt set make a steel plate for them. Proper placement of bolt patterns. Make sure you wrap and/or grease the bolts before pouring. Then after the pour and basic troweling. drop the steel plate over the bolts to line them up and get them straight.
Essentially have a floating slab on the inside of the building.

I would not keep it the way it is. I am not a concrete expert or and engineer. I am just a guy who has had to fix a lot of others screwups for family and friends.

Jlarson · Jun 22, 2015

That's piss poor workmanship. If one of my subs did work like that they'd be out there jack hammering it right back up. They're done after that too.

coljar · Jun 22, 2015

chase237 said:
<<<< Not a concrete guy, but

.

I'm not either, so I guess we have something in common with the guy that done this pour. I don't have any better ideas than a couple I've heard above, but sorry you've had so much trouble when all you wanted was to have a nice garage.

readhead · Jun 22, 2015

There is nothing wrong with the style of anchor bolt. We actually supply similar bolts in high uplift situations. L shaped bolts will pull right out of the concrete in certain conditions.

The problem here is very poor workmanship. I already suggested cutting the slab and replacing the footings but that brings a whole new set of problems.

It would be interesting to know if there was an engineered foundation plan and if there were any inspections required.

I think that the logical solution is to remove and replace all of it. Obviously the question of who will pay plays a large part in the outcome. Unfortunately some legal action may be coming if the concrete guy won't step up. I'm glad you took lots of photos.

Slab is poured, tell me what you think (pic heavy)

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