Urgent advice needed - footers were poured today

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

I'm hoping someone who knows concrete can size up my situation and give me some advice. I had footers poured today for my garage build, but i'm really concerned about the quality. Here are the details.

footers dug yesterday in clay, 2 x #4 rebar laid continuous on stands in base

Pour today

weather: 72F, low humidity beautiful fall day, no breeze
truck arrives at 4:02pm with 3000 psi, 4" slump "performance" mix
Drivers says we have 90 minutes
crew doesn't arrive until 4:30
needed to finish grading up to the site so the truck can get in, fix some minor issues with rebar found during inspect
Pour starts around 4:45, fill in front footer
due to soft soil, the truck has trouble with access - more delays with more grading and getting the truck repositioned. the crew wants the driver to ride his truck over 2x8 ramps that span over the footer so they can pour the back - driver refuses because it's a completely idiotic request
crew instructs driver to add water 3 times over the course of the job while the regrade and move dirt.
5:30 pour still not done. I ask the driver where we are - 7-8" slump. The driver is just shaking his head at this point.
Pour finally complete at 5:50.

Crew signs off and I flag the driver to ask questions. Nice guy. He said the water allotment was 28 gallons. I guess this was the maximum amount of water that could be added to the mix. He shows me the report where 56 gallons were added. The majority was added to the last half of the load which was the pour in the back half.

Now, i'm not concrete expert. but if I start with 3000 PSI concrete and add twice the recommended amount of water over 90 minutes, i'm guessing the pour in the back is well below the engineering spec of 3000 psi minimum.

I'm really concerned because the back wall of this garage is into a berm. So this footer is for what is essentially a retaining wall. I'm pissed.

Any advice on this situation? The crew said it's normal to add water in the summer. They are pretty clear i'm upset.

never enuf time · Oct 7, 2015

I not an expert , just know that the adding water is bad. It was to make their job easier.

I lost all faith in them, when you said they tried to get driver to go over 2x8. That wouldn't have ended up well.

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

Those 2x8 ramps would've snapped like twigs. The driver was beside himself with this request.

I just read a paper on concrete strength that says going from 4" to 7" slump reduces strength by about 800 psi +/- depending on concrete type. So I'd estimate the back half of this pour is about 2200 psi, maybe lower.

brownbagg · Oct 7, 2015

every gallon you add will lose about 80psi per yard

PT Doc · Oct 7, 2015

brownbagg said:
every gallon you add will lose about 80psi per yard

Holy cow. Good information.

Dick in Wisconsin · Oct 7, 2015

Who is the general contractor? What does he say about this? Did you try to talk to the owner of "the crew"?

Don't hesitate to call the concrete supplier. Most of them have either an engineer on staff or someone who is essentially a concrete engineer.

Keep us posted.

NUTTSGT · Oct 7, 2015

**** in Wisconsin said:
Who is the general contractor? What does he say about this? Did you try to talk to the owner of "the crew"?

I was wondering if these are the same guys that are putting the building up ? If so, I think I would stop them right now before it gets worse.

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

brownbagg said:
every gallon you add will lose about 80psi per yard

Thanks for this. OK. This was a 9 yard load total. So assuming all 56 gallons were added to the full load (which it was not), that would be 6 gallons added per yard for a loss of 500 psi. So 2500 psi. However, the lions share of the water was added to the last half, so i'm betting the final PSI of the later half of the pour is around 2000psi.

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

NUTTSGT said:
I was wondering if these are the same guys that are putting the building up ? If so, I think I would stop them right now before it gets worse.

It is the "in-house" crew. But another crew does the structural. I got a long list of references from these folks and followed up on 3 or 4 of them. All were happy with the quality. I guess that's why i'm second guessing here.

I'll be talking to the owner of the masonry company tomorrow to fill him in. I don't think I got is "A" team on this job. What recourse do i have? Have them jack hammer it out? Report it to the county since the approved plans spec 3k psi minimum?

930dreamer · Oct 7, 2015

carotene said:
It is the "in-house" crew. But another crew does the structural. I got a long list of references from these folks and followed up on 3 or 4 of them. All were happy with the quality. I guess that's why i'm second guessing here.

I'll be talking to the owner of the masonry company tomorrow to fill him in. I don't think I got is "A" team on this job. What recourse do i have? Have them jack hammer it out? Report it to the county since the approved plans spec 3k psi minimum?

If they can't prove it's 3k psi concrete, would they expect you to pay for it?

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

930dreamer said:
If they can't prove it's 3k psi concrete, would they expect you to pay for it?

I'm not sure. What I do know is that I took a cell phone pic of the paper work his crew signed which clearly shows the # gallons added and their signature. I could probably call the company and get a copy.

My main concern is safety. Is the reduced PSI a big issue for a 24x25 garage foundation footer that has proper rebar? I wanted to reach out to the concrete experts here to see if i'm off-base or if this is just run of the mill stuff.

carotene · Oct 7, 2015

**** in Wisconsin said:
Don't hesitate to call the concrete supplier. Most of them have either an engineer on staff or someone who is essentially a concrete engineer.

Excellent suggestion, thanks. I'll do that first thing in the a.m.

stihlntime · Oct 7, 2015

I would have a meeting with the GC ,inspector, and yourself. I would include a rep of the concrete company if they would attend. Have copies of the paper work where water was added. If the inspector has an issue I would shut the build down until it is fixed to spec. Is the GC bonded. I would be having second thoughts. Any building is just as good as its foundation.

jask · Oct 7, 2015

They were not ready..late to a pour day, no prep, no planning and poured a substandard job on clay. Let us know what the GC has to say.

woodrail · Oct 8, 2015

Hind site, should have had a test cylinder poured.

In theory, a document of warranty could be drafted to insure your covered specifically for a foundation failure.

What would I do? Backhoe that **** out and start over. Alternative, I suppose you could have the footer tested, but that's going to stop construction for a while.

RivennHewn · Oct 8, 2015

This is why we don't place concrete without an independent special inspector onsite for the pour, collecting cylinders for testing PSI, documenting mix, time, additives and structural details.

I'd start with letting the your structural engineer know the details, and let him decide if your OK, or if you need some testing.

An independent testing lab could take a core from your footer, and test it.

If it hits the PSI spec at 7 days, your on track to reach full strength at 28 days (Pending mix)

Nicholas · Oct 8, 2015

In California when the mix is over 2500 psi for structural reasons there is a deputy inspection required and a break test as well. It sounds like that is not the case where you are?

wssix99 · Oct 8, 2015

woodrail said:
Hind site, should have had a test cylinder poured.

The contractor should have done that to cover their ***. Now, they will have to have a core sample drilled.

I would not build further until this is resolved. Vertical forces are probably not a big deal, but (as I think you are) I would be worried about the clay you have in that berm exerting pressure on the sides of your footing.

Even if an engineer signs off on a weaker concrete spec, I would insist that the contractor have a core sample tested at their expense to prove the strength. The minute they violated the supplier's spec by adding too much water, they took responsibility for the quality of the material.

matt_i · Oct 8, 2015

At this point its more of a documentation and negotiation scenario. In hindsight it would have been good to have a test cylinder available or a piece of concrete poured from same at the end that could be compression tested. There is a cost associated with getting a standard cylinder tested that I don't know about as I've never had one done.

You have to go in knowing that the contractor does not want to incur the cost of tear out and redo. My guess is they will point to a "safety factor" built into the cross-section of the footer that accounts for "site conditions". Just guessing at possibilities and not defending their poor practice. It seems like their biggest fault was ordering the concrete before they were even on site and I would hammer on this point, that they didn't even prep the site before ordering and took actions detrimental to the project quality. The 90 minutes window the driver gives you is the "no charge" window, around here its $75/hr for each hour you run over. I would document everything that you have in your post above, on paper to take to this meeting.

I do agree with above that anyone asking a concrete truck to drive across a trench spanned by a flat 2x8 is not your best crew. I used a concrete buggy to pour my footers this summer, it rode over a "bridge" that I built, to span the trench, that used 4pc 2x8, on edge, decked with 3/4 plywood...some underside cross-bracing to keep everything aligned. As I recall the buggy is around 1/2 yard capacity....I was planning around 3000# of total load, whereas a 9 yard truck is going to have 36k in concrete alone...

readhead · Oct 8, 2015

Test cylinders are common for commercial work but rarely seen on residential jobs due to cost. The concrete crew was clearly unprepared and either not knowledgeable about placing the concrete or didn't care.

At this point I would stop construction and have a meeting with the GC if there is one involved. Have several core samples taken and have 7, 14 and 28 day breaks. That is the only way to verify strength. This will delay progress and someone will be on the hook for the testing, possible removal and replacement of the concrete and monetary impacts. A month delay will add another interest payment to your construction loan if one is in place.

I know this is frustrating but be calm, reasonable and document everything.

CNGsaves · Oct 8, 2015

^ ^ ^ This. Stop the "progress" and re-evaluate.

Good luck.

xyster101 · Oct 8, 2015

How tall is this berm? Post a pic. I agree with other about meeting with the inspector. My inspector did not seem to care about anything I did. It was good and bad.

Posted by my Galaxy S3. Sorry for typos

Marcm157 · Oct 8, 2015

carotene said:
It is the "in-house" crew. But another crew does the structural. I got a long list of references from these folks and followed up on 3 or 4 of them. All were happy with the quality.

I always thought asking a business you were considering hiring to provide references was a waste of time. They are only going to supply you with their "Best". I usually look for sources of complaints and then look for an explanation from the business. It's a little more labor intensive but does seem to work better for me that way.

balddave · Oct 8, 2015

I see two issues here, first a "commercial" issue if you will. You paid for a certain strength to meet a design you paid for. If you're getting less, then at minimum the compensation should be adjusted, at most you should get what was paid for.

The second issue is safety as you questioned. The concrete was specified as 3000psi, I'm assuming this is the 28 day strength and not 7 day strength. Regardless, the concrete will continue to cure and strength for a long time (years). I worked on a large infrastructure project where we specified a 28 day strength, but the concrete wasn't going to be loaded for up to three years later. As such we were able to account for a 30-50% increase in strength over the specified 28 day strength. Combine that with what is likely margin in the design, and I wouldn't be too concerned about safety (although I'd like to know how much margin is in the design).

matt_i · Oct 8, 2015

How do you get the core samples once the footing is poured...

meaning, i understand the core drill rig, but you just core a hole(s) in the footer?

Kevin54 · Oct 8, 2015

I'm in for updates to this.

Djstorm100 · Oct 8, 2015

matt_i said:
How do you get the core samples once the footing is poured...

meaning, i understand the core drill rig, but you just core a hole(s) in the footer?

Drill bit is hollow. Drills hole. Remove core and takes the sample for testing. Then fill in concrete with more concrete. I've seen it where the concrete used was poured in tube and cured and then the tube was removed and test. This saved the structure from having a piece removed and a patch added.

dutchgray · Oct 8, 2015

Late crew and not prepped is pretty bad, trying to get truck to drive over a 2x bridge is a joke. 4 guys with wheel barrows could have pushed the back section in no problem if ground was prepared with something solid to wheel on, or swing it in with a backhoe with the bucket reversed. It was only a 9 yard pour which is basically nothing. We have done 90 yard footing pours in a day with 3 people.

carotene · Oct 8, 2015

Update: talked to the GC/company owner first thing this morning. He's a stand up guy and assured me several times he'd "make it right" if this isnt to spec. He in turn called his contacts at the concrete company (he uses these guys often) to get their quick input. Their take is that the pour is very likely fine, BUT the owner ordered a quality evaluation and core sample at his expense. The concrete folks will email both of us the results. I called myself as a "trust but verify" move and the concrete folks verified the engineering eval was ordered.

The GC said they used a 5 sack drier mix and was confident enough to move forward with the job. I told him fine, but its all coming out if not in spec.

A couple of notes:
I paid $0 up front
I do trust the owner. My discussions before the contract lead me to believe he is very competent.
This is not 2 guys and a pickup operation. The company has done many foundations.

I guess its wait and see.

carotene · Oct 8, 2015

dutchgray said:
Late crew and not prepped is pretty bad, trying to get truck to drive over a 2x bridge is a joke. 4 guys with wheel barrows could have pushed the back section in no problem if ground was prepared with something solid to wheel on, or swing it in with a backhoe with the bucket reversed. It was only a 9 yard pour which is basically nothing. We have done 90 yard footing pours in a day with 3 people.

This is my biggest frustration. The whole mess was easily avoidable. Had they arrived 30-60 min earlier it would have been fine. Late to a pour? Come on...

Daniel Dudley · Oct 9, 2015

If it is on undisturbed clay, and below any frost action, it will do its job. I would prefer to see a real poured foundation on top of it, as opposed to block, or I would want to see the cells in the block filled solid.

Overbuilding the foundation will spread the load on the footer, and that would compensate for any weakness, and help to prevent cracking. Reinforced poured foundation being the best, of course.

bczygan · Oct 9, 2015

There are 2 questions here.

The first, is did you get what you paid for? And if not, what remedy do you want?

The second, is what is the actual strength and is it adequate, of should it be removed and replaced?

I don't know the answer to either, but say the actual strength is 2000PSI. That's 2000 pounds per square inch! How do you even get 2000 pounds to bear on one square inch of foundation? Just thinking......

Bill

RobSmith · Oct 9, 2015

4:00 pm ? Struth...I would have thought you start a major pour in the morning so if anything goes wrong..there's time to sort it.

sberry · Oct 9, 2015

jask said:
They were not ready..late to a pour day, no prep, no planning and poured a substandard job on clay. Let us know what the GC has to say.

Concrete guys are hit and mis, about 1 hit for every 2 misses. The above is about typical. I realize it is not what it is sposed to be but its probably pretty good.

carotene · Oct 9, 2015

RobSmith said:
4:00 pm ? Struth...I would have thought you start a major pour in the morning so if anything goes wrong..there's time to sort it.

This isn't what I would classify as a major pour. 9 yards total. Had the path for the concrete truck been clear and ready, they could've easily knocked this out in 45 min tops. The problem is they spent precious minutes with the excavator moving fill dirt just so the truck had access. I could tell the crew was frustrated. They had to rush over from another job and had to knock off several things before the pour could start.

The crew asking the truck to drive on 2x8 was stupid and I think they know that - there was an element of frustration. Not making excuses for them, just what I observed.

They're really lucky they didn't get caught in DC traffic. They could have very easily missed the window altogether.

I think things are on a better path now that i've discussed with the owner.

carotene · Oct 9, 2015

bczygan said:
There are 2 questions here.

The first, is did you get what you paid for? And if not, what remedy do you want?

The second, is what is the actual strength and is it adequate, of should it be removed and replaced?

I don't know the answer to either, but say the actual strength is 2000PSI. That's 2000 pounds per square inch! How do you even get 2000 pounds to bear on one square inch of foundation? Just thinking......

Bill

Bill, perfectly logical as always (I read a lot here and your comments are always insightful and on-point).

Strength? - quality report from the concrete folks is in process. I was impressed with the technology on their trucks. Satellite tracked just-in-time delivery, accurately gauged water additions with timestamps on the delivery ticket - really cool! The delivery ticket along with the mix details should provide enough info to their engineer to make a call.

Specs? - the stamped plans call for min 3000 psi. I assume 28 day strength. When the report comes back, i'll have to talk it out with the owner if we're below spec. I guess it depend on how much below if at all.

carotene · Oct 9, 2015

Daniel Dudley said:
If it is on undisturbed clay, and below any frost action, it will do its job. I would prefer to see a real poured foundation on top of it, as opposed to block, or I would want to see the cells in the block filled solid.

The block wall has #4 rebar vertical that overlaps the J-bars in the footer by min 20". The block is then core filled per the plans. I'll be adding the last few days progress pics to the build thread.

bczygan · Oct 9, 2015

carotene said:
Bill, perfectly logical as always (I read a lot here and your comments are always insightful and on-point).

Strength? - quality report from the concrete folks is in process. I was impressed with the technology on their trucks. Satellite tracked just-in-time delivery, accurately gauged water additions with timestamps on the delivery ticket - really cool! The delivery ticket along with the mix details should provide enough info to their engineer to make a call.

Specs? - the stamped plans call for min 3000 psi. I assume 28 day strength. When the report comes back, i'll have to talk it out with the owner if we're below spec. I guess it depend on how much below if at all.

You MUST have me mixed up with someone else. I've NEVER been called THOSE things before! :willy_nil

Bill

readhead · Oct 9, 2015

7,14 and 28 day breaks are common intervals. Strength can occur sooner or later. We worked on a bridge one time and one of the piers took 57 days to reach strength before we could set the steel.

wssix99 · Oct 10, 2015

carotene said:
I told him fine, but its all coming out if not in spec.

I would make sure you put this in writing, because moving forward with construction raises the stakes considerably. (It probably moves things from small claims to full courtroom + lawyers.)

carotene said:
My discussions before the contract lead me to believe he is very competent.

This is not 2 guys and a pickup operation. The company has done many foundations.

I'm really close to calling for us to get in a circle and hold hands for a Garage Journal intervention here... If the contractor was really competent and experienced, they would have been managing things (and their quality) and this would have never happened.

Urgent advice needed - footers were poured today

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