Food for Thought -- Tools for Thought -- Insights & Musings

superautobacs · Oct 11, 2015

To put it in simple terms....

I'm simply going to post whatever suits my mind.

I'll start off with some controversial(?) information:

First set of scans are from the 2007 Factory Gear Magazine.

*note to viewers...especially for the serious observer: don't fall into thinking that tools should be chosen based solely on these numbers that simply show what is the "strongest/hardest" or "weekest/softest". These are destructive testing; NOT endurance testing. So, DON'T take this as some ultimate guide for hand tool shopping.

Just because brand "X" resulted in the highest value, it does NOT neccessarily equate to being the "best" of the bunch.
Keep in mind that the results are not indicative of the entire brand's quality.
There are many other factors involved in choosing a good tool that suits your purpose, needs, and taste.

bradley8795 · Oct 11, 2015

Anybody want to translate lol?

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

superautobacs · Oct 11, 2015

From the 2014 Factory Gear Magazine:

*note to viewers...especially for the serious observer: don't fall into thinking that tools should be chosen based solely on these numbers that simply show what is the "strongest/hardest" or "weekest/softest". These are destructive testing; NOT endurance testing. So, DON'T take this as some ultimate guide for hand tool shopping.

Just because brand "X" resulted in the highest value, it does NOT neccessarily equate to being the "best" of the bunch.
Keep in mind that the results are not indicative of the entire brand's quality.
There are many other factors involved in choosing a good tool that suits your purpose, needs, and taste.

superautobacs · Oct 11, 2015

*note to viewers...especially for the serious observer: don't fall into thinking that tools should be chosen based solely on these numbers that simply show what is the "strongest/hardest" or "weekest/softest". These are destructive testing; NOT endurance testing. So, DON'T take this as some ultimate guide for hand tool shopping.

Just because brand "X" resulted in the highest value, it does NOT neccessarily equate to being the "best" of the bunch.
Keep in mind that the results are not indicative of the entire brand's quality.
There are many other factors involved in choosing a good tool that suits your purpose, needs, and taste.

Olafur · Oct 11, 2015

Awesome, thanks superautobacs :beer:

I loved the adjustable wrench test. Bahco didn't do very well. :lol:

stihlntime · Oct 11, 2015

Good info but I wonder why they didn't include Hazet or Stahlwille?

Wakefield · Oct 11, 2015

If I am reading this correctly a light slender hinge handle "spinner handle" breaker bar with a traditional pinned head (although an unusual and ingenious way of locating the pin) beat out the slightly heavier American one with the more up to date axle bolted head.

Surprising and unexpected

toolmutt · Oct 11, 2015

Interesting info. Thanks for posting.

dede2897234 · Oct 11, 2015

Superautobacs,

Thanks for posting all this test data!

Can you please tell me who were the top 3 performers in the screwdriver test?

Thanks,

Dave

Fedwrench · Oct 11, 2015

Thanks for sharing :bowdown:

I always appreciate your informative posts about Japanese tools I've never heard of. :beer:

You would think that since Japanese cars are all over the place, it would be easier to get Japanese tools here like KTC and Nepros but, unfortunately that just isn't the case.

d.mcfarland · Oct 11, 2015

Interesting testing and results. Thanks for taking the time to share.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RRmech · Oct 11, 2015

I remember once buying an untouched (around $15) FULLER 3/8" drive SAE socket set, at a local yard sale.
I was initially pissed off when I saw the.....Japan.....on the set, as having been used to FULLER USA tools in the past.
I also saw KTC stamped on the set, but that at the time did not mean anything to me?

Steve

superautobacs · Oct 11, 2015

jeremy v said:
Neat stuff, thanks for posting it. I noticed that they switched the pictures for the OEX and SOEX Snap-on wrenches for the 17mm combo wrench testing, so I wonder if the results should be switched too. It makes sense that the wrench with the higher hardness number would be the one to fracture instead of bend, but they have the lower hardness wrench fracturing.

If a high HRC was the definitive answer to any given tool's durability, then the Nepros wrench with a higher HRC should've also fractured, but that wasn't the case. If you observe some of the other tests similar results were shown, where the HRC is not necessarily the sole ingredient for this kind of testing.

Olafur said:
Awesome, thanks superautobacs
I loved the adjustable wrench test. Bahco didn't do very well.

True, but the good thing with Bahco adjustable wrenches is that there are replacement parts available separately.

FYI, the minimum requirements are:
DIN 3265kg-cm
JIS 4700kg-cm
ANSI 4700kg-cm

Considered that, I think the Bahcos still did well.

stihlntime said:
Good info but I wonder why they didn't include Hazet or Stahlwille?

Take a closer look.

Wakefield said:
If I am reading this correctly a light slender hinge handle "spinner handle" breaker bar with a traditional pinned head (although an unusual and ingenious way of locating the pin) beat out the slightly heavier American one with the more up to date axle bolted head.

Surprising and unexpected

That's exactly what they said as well.

dede2897234 said:
Superautobacs,

Thanks for posting all this test data!

Can you please tell me who were the top 3 performers in the screwdriver test?

Thanks,

Dave

The writer mentioned their surprise with KTC (DIP2-2) and especially with Nepros. The PB Swiss and Wera were good as well.

The important thing to take with this testing, according to the writer, was the importance of the tool operator. If the tool is not operated properly, no matter how good the tool might be, it will be prone to breaking. Inserting the driver with the tip as close to perpendicular to the fastener is of utmost importance in properly transferring the torsional torque to that fastener. Any deviation from that introduces unwanted stress to the driver.

Fedwrench said:
Thanks for sharing I always appreciate your informative posts about Japanese tools I've never heard of.

You would think that since Japanese cars are all over the place, it would be easier to get Japanese tools here like KTC and Nepros but, unfortunately that just isn't the case.

From my understanding of the tool industry, I've always thought (still do) that the North American tool market has been over-saturated and is a matured market. There a lot of brands for consumers on this continent to choose from. Being a matured market, brand loyalty and brand perception is so intrinsic to the minds of the tool buyer that it's very difficult for a new name to enter that market. Gaining its share of the market pie would require immense marketing and campaigning--something that they can rather push in other emerging markets around the world.

That said, yes, I totally wish they have more presence here.

Olafur · Oct 11, 2015

2014 test, ratchets vs breaker bars.
Lets take the average of same brand ratchets and breakers:

Ratchets:
Koken-zeal 332
Snap On F80 413
Deen 354
Deen 366
Average 366

Breaker bars:
Koken 364
Snap On 286
Deen 345
Deen 310
Average 326

Ratchets win. Further reducing the reason to rely on breaker bars with all the extra long ratchets currently on the market.

Olafur · Oct 11, 2015

Random observations.
Consistency:
Snap On combination wrenches and Ratchets in the 2014 test.
Wrenches:
open end
OEXM170B 348 Nm
SOEXM17 345 Nm
Box end
OEXM170B 535 Nm
SOEXM17 535 Nm

Hardly a coincidence and quite impressive.

Ratches:
FHNF100 413 Nm
F80 413 Nm

Funny these very different ratchets post the same number here.

Koken hex bits in 2014 test:
Koken 3010M 51 Nm
Koken Zeal 51 Nm

Consistency right there

Wakefield · Oct 11, 2015

Olafur said:
2014 test, ratchets vs breaker bars.
Lets take the average of same brand ratchets and breakers:

Ratchets:
Koken-zeal 332
Snap On F80 413
Deen 354
Deen 366
Average 366

Breaker bars:
Koken 364
Snap On 286
Deen 345
Deen 310
Average 326

Ratchets win. Further reducing the reason to rely on breaker bars with all the extra long ratchets currently on the market.

And I thought it was saying the 3/8" drive ratchet beat out the 1/2' drive bar-but now I see it was the 3/8" bar.
So the bar is left with only the remaining advantage its head is smaller and it is cheaper than the top tier ratchet.

Olafur · Oct 11, 2015

Wakefield said:
And I thought it was saying the 3/8" drive ratchet beat out the 1/2' drive bar-but now I see it was the 3/8" bar.
So the bar is left with only the remaining advantage its head is smaller and it is cheaper than the top tier ratchet.

Strange as it is, yes!

Olafur · Oct 11, 2015

Ok, let's walk through the highest rated tools in some of the 2014 test - just for fun and perhaps some comparison as well. :3gears:

You are fighting a stuck bolt with 17 mm head:
You grab a combination wrench and use the- open end -, since you are lucky you got Snap On oexm170b and you can put 348 Nm on the bolt head but nothing happens. (of course something else happens, but lets put that aside).

Then you grab a 3/8 drive 17mm socket and a breaker bar, since you are lucky you got the KTC BS3E and @ 374Nm the square drive fails and the bolt is still stuck.

So you switch to a ratchet, your Snap On F80, and without telling anyone you slide a pipe on the handle and 413 Nm later the ratchet fails.

Back to the combination wrenches now you grab your Nepros NMS2-17 -box end- and use the jack from your car to squeeze all the avalible 597Nm out of it, but the damned bolt still doesn't move.

Time to pull out the big gun, the extra long double box KTC M160-1719 giving you 690 Nm of torque before it fails.

This is turning ugly since all the likely candidates are now out of the picture, but wait a second... :headscrat

For some reason you grab the double box offset DEEN DNM1719A and you borrow your wife’s bottle jack to jack on the wrench - and the bolt finally turns at the very last breath of the DEEN @ just over 710 Nm! :thumbup:

Now the question is where is DEEN made?!

rice rocket · Oct 11, 2015

Wakefield said:
And I thought it was saying the 3/8" drive ratchet beat out the 1/2' drive bar-but now I see it was the 3/8" bar.
So the bar is left with only the remaining advantage its head is smaller and it is cheaper than the top tier ratchet.

I'm guessing a ratchet pushed to 200-300 ft-lbs daily will fail way before the breaker bar. Just because it it failed at a higher torque doesn't mean it's serviceable at that torque level.

dede2897234 · Oct 11, 2015

Olafur said:
Ok, let's walk through the highest rated tools in some of the 2014 test - just for fun and perhaps some comparison as well.

You are fighting a stuck bolt with 17 mm head:
You grab a combination wrench and use the- open end -, since you are lucky you got Snap On oexm170b and you can put 348 Nm on the bolt head but nothing happens. (of course something else happens, but lets put that aside).

Then you grab a 3/8 drive 17mm socket and a breaker bar, since you are lucky you got the KTC BS3E and @ 374Nm the square drive fails and the bolt is still stuck.

So you switch to a ratchet, your Snap On F80, and without telling anyone you slide a pipe on the handle and 413 Nm later the ratchet fails.

Back to the combination wrenches now you grab your Nepros NMS2-17 -box end- and use the jack from your car to squeeze all the avalible 597Nm out of it, but the damned bolt still doesn't move.

Time to pull out the big gun, the extra long double box KTC M160-1719 giving you 690 Nm of torque before it fails.

This is turning ugly since all the likely candidates are now out of the picture, but wait a second...

For some reason you grab the double box offset DEEN DNM1719A and you borrow your wife’s bottle jack to jack on the wrench - and the bolt finally turns at the very last breath of the DEEN @ just over 710 Nm!

Now the question is where is DEEN made?!

Olafur,

The Deen hand tool brand is the house brand of the Factory Gear stores in Japan. The Deen hand tools are made in Taiwan.

Dave

jeremy v · Oct 11, 2015

There was one other interesting thing that stood out for me when looking at all the tests. The Deen and Mitoloy hex keys both had obvious rotational distortion of the hex key all the way to the very tip. All the other wrenches remained straight for the first little bit. They remained straight because the first part of the wrench was inserted into a hex fitting before being torqued on for the test. That establishes the point of most likely failure (other than the 90 degree bend in the key) to be right where the hex key leaves the fitting head, and that was seen to be the case in several of the other brands. The distortion all the way to the tip means the Deen and Mitoloy hex keys distorted rotationally way down into the hex fitting when torqued on. If that's the case I would have expected to see marring or damage to the hex corners of the L-wrench near the tip but they look pretty clean. It leaves me a little confused as to how that result occurred.

Olafur · Oct 12, 2015

The numbers for them seem to be consistent between sizes. Still strange.

Now, another problem with the hex key test is PB Swiss didn't win! Others beat them by some margin. That is contrary to popular belief here on G.J. On top of that in the 2014 bit socket test PB didn't win either. Far from it actually. :bounce:

Olafur · Oct 12, 2015

dede2897234 said:
Olafur,

The Deen hand tool brand is the house brand of the Factory Gear stores in Japan. The Deen hand tools are made in Taiwan.

Dave

Thanks, I suspected they were made in Taiwan.

Sprintman · Oct 12, 2015

Deen tools

http://www.f-gear.co.jp/deen/index_e.htm

superautobacs · Oct 17, 2015

Olafur said:
Ok, let's walk through the highest rated tools in some of the 2014 test - just for fun and perhaps some comparison as well.

You are fighting a stuck bolt with 17 mm head:
You grab a combination wrench and use the- open end -, since you are lucky you got Snap On oexm170b and you can put 348 Nm on the bolt head but nothing happens. (of course something else happens, but lets put that aside).

Then you grab a 3/8 drive 17mm socket and a breaker bar, since you are lucky you got the KTC BS3E and @ 374Nm the square drive fails and the bolt is still stuck.

So you switch to a ratchet, your Snap On F80, and without telling anyone you slide a pipe on the handle and 413 Nm later the ratchet fails.

Back to the combination wrenches now you grab your Nepros NMS2-17 -box end- and use the jack from your car to squeeze all the avalible 597Nm out of it, but the damned bolt still doesn't move.

Time to pull out the big gun, the extra long double box KTC M160-1719 giving you 690 Nm of torque before it fails.

This is turning ugly since all the likely candidates are now out of the picture, but wait a second...

For some reason you grab the double box offset DEEN DNM1719A and you borrow your wife’s bottle jack to jack on the wrench - and the bolt finally turns at the very last breath of the DEEN @ just over 710 Nm!

Now the question is where is DEEN made?!

I enjoyed reading that. :beer:

Dave is right. They are primarily made in Taiwan. But a good percentage of their products are made to Factory Gear's own specs, and are therefore made in extremely small lots, and not sold under a different brand name. That sort of manufacturing is only feasible because the owner of FG is not only a businessman, but an avid tool enthusiast that has close ties with Taiwanese tool manufacturers. In fact, it's not just Taiwanese manufacturers that he has close ties with, but with European brands like PB Swiss, Wera, and Knipex/Orbis. Those brands have made limited edition tools just for them.

Sprintman said:
Deen tools

http://www.f-gear.co.jp/deen/index_e.htm

I can't believe they haven't updated their website. It's so outdated. :spit:

jeremy v said:
There was one other interesting thing that stood out for me when looking at all the tests. The Deen and Mitoloy hex keys both had obvious rotational distortion of the hex key all the way to the very tip. All the other wrenches remained straight for the first little bit. They remained straight because the first part of the wrench was inserted into a hex fitting before being torqued on for the test. That establishes the point of most likely failure (other than the 90 degree bend in the key) to be right where the hex key leaves the fitting head, and that was seen to be the case in several of the other brands. The distortion all the way to the tip means the Deen and Mitoloy hex keys distorted rotationally way down into the hex fitting when torqued on. If that's the case I would have expected to see marring or damage to the hex corners of the L-wrench near the tip but they look pretty clean. It leaves me a little confused as to how that result occurred.

Good observation! That is peculiar indeed. We'll never find out .... unless we ask them directly.

superautobacs · Oct 25, 2015

The remainder of tests from the 2014 magazine:

*note to viewers...especially for the serious observer: don't fall into thinking that tools should be chosen based solely on these numbers that simply show what is the "strongest/hardest" or "weekest/softest". These are destructive testing; NOT endurance testing. So, DON'T take this as some ultimate guide for hand tool shopping.

Just because brand "X" resulted in the highest value, it does NOT neccessarily equate to being the "best" of the bunch.
Keep in mind that the results are not indicative of the entire brand's quality.
There are many other factors involved in choosing a good tool that suits your purpose, needs, and taste.

Jeremy V, you'll be happy to see all test subjects were decapitated in this hex key test.

dutchgray · Oct 25, 2015

I broke the tip of a screwdriver once, an English made Stanley PZ2, but would agree with you that it is a rare occurrence, fit is more important than the ultimate strength, with tools like screwdrivers and hex keys, and the testing shows all the respected brands are pretty strong.

maico · Nov 1, 2015

Can't see the point of the Phillips screwdriver test. I thought the whole point of them was they cam out at low torque levels compared to Pozidriv.

I own the Hazet screwdriver shown. Actually made in Slovenia by a company who also make screwdrivers for Gedore amongst others. I originally bought it because the handle shape and rubber/plastic composition allowed very high torque figures to be achieved by hand. It was tested in one of the German magazine group tests. The handle of the Felo also did well.

Dave455 · Nov 1, 2015

Hmm!

Let's not forget that these scans are from the FACTORY GEAR magazine! If they decide that a particular Deen tool (FACTORY GEAR OWN BRAND) is the best of it's class we shouldn't be any more surprised than when 'Rolling Stones' magazine votes 'The Rolling Stones' as best rock group!

The only thing I notice about the various graphs, if I'm able to read them correctly, is how close most of the big brands are to each other in terms of absolute strength! If you like a particular tool because it fit's your hand, or you can get a good deal, or whatever, you may as well simply go for it!

Also bear in mind how many factors there are that affect a tools quality! You can generally, for example, make a tool stronger by not making it so hard. The resultant tool will, however, wear faster in normal use! Like dutchgrey I broke a Stanley PZ 2 once, but I was well over torquing it! Up till that point it had worn better than any other I owned!

So, read these tests to be informed, but ultimately buy the tool you like, that lasts well under YOUR typical usage!

Olafur · Oct 11, 2017

This thread deserves a bump.
Here are actually numbers to crunch. Few and far between.

Bumped for new members.

superautobacs · Oct 15, 2017

Thanks for the reminder, Olafur.

No numbers to crunch this time...just: Tools for thought

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nCnR4DylTRk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Flash21 · Dec 8, 2018

bump this informative thread buy super!

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