A warning to welders/auto guys

mtechgunman · Dec 3, 2015

Do not use brake cleaner to clean metal prior to welding! I'm sure a lot of you know this already, but somehow I didn't despite having welded as a hobby since I was about 13 (I'm 30 now).

When heated, the brake cleaner that contains chlorinated solvents like tetrachloroethelyne can produce Phosgene gas.

I found out yesterday how horrible this gas is.

It started with a piece of steel that was new, but pretty dirty. I had a can of brake cleaner handy so I decided to scrub down the whole piece before working with it. I used a rag to clean and wipe the steel down after shooting it with brake cleaner then proceeded to weld the piece up.

I inhaled a good amount of the Phosgene gas and immediately began coughing and wheezing, eyes were burning. I headed outside for fresh air which probably saved me from further damage.

17 years of welding I've never ran across a warning that I can recall, nor did I even think to check the warnings on the can. I don't normally use brake cleaner for this type of stuff, but it was handy so I did. Big mistake. And I'm typically a very safe individual.

It took me about 30 minutes to even figure out what had happened. A simple google search and there are hundreds of hits on government websites, welding sites, fabrication sites etc etc.

This gas can kill you. I feel fine now, but according to the many sites out there, the effects of the gas on your lungs are delayed onset, ranging from 4-48 hours depending on exposure to the gas.

The delayed effects can be:
-Difficulty Breathing
-Coughing up white to pink-tinged fluid (a sign of Pulmonary Edema which is fluid build up in the lungs. You can easily die from this.)
-Low Blood Pressure
-Heart Failure

Phosgene gas was used in WW1 as a chemical weapon and it is extremely nasty as I discovered yesterday.

I'm sure a bunch of you know this already, but I'm hoping this reaches at least 1 person who, like myself, does not know. Maybe someone uses some brake cleaner then follows up with a torch to heat a rusty bolt or something. I don't know.

This guy seemed to have it much worse than I, but his story is almost exactly the same:
http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html

Here are some links on Phosgene:
http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters/2013/ws_13_09.html

http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp

Fellas- even if you were aware of this please pass this simple yet potential life saving information on to your buddies that work with Brake Cleaner or any other chlorinated solvent in any capacity. Again, I don't typically use brake cleaner for much, but it was there and I did. Everyone should have heard this warning at least once.

For now, it's just a bad scare to myself and my family. My wife has listened to my lungs a few times since exposure and we've checked my oxygen and everything is normal so far. Hopefully I've escaped a potentially disastrous situation. Would be a real shame if I was killed two months before my daughter was born.

Be safe out there

flyng_fool · Dec 3, 2015

Get your lungs checked ASAP! You might feel ok but a visit to a doc might reveal something you can't see or feel.

iajonesy · Dec 3, 2015

Get yourself to a Dr. ASAP. This delayed onset **** is nothing to mess around with. You need to get checked right now, don't wait until you are spitting blood.

Mike

Strouty · Dec 3, 2015

I knew about this and I tell people about it any chance I get, amazing how few welders know about it.

I wonder if it is only because of the chlorinated elements, they make non chlorinated brake cleaner.

mtechgunman · Dec 3, 2015

flyng_fool said:
Get your lungs checked ASAP! You might feel ok but a visit to a doc might reveal something you can't see or feel.

I definitely agree, but there's no sense in going in at this very moment. My wife has been listening to them with her stethoscope routinely and the moment there is anything out of the ordinary we are headed to the ER. Any chest tightness or cough I'm headed in.

With the delayed onset symptoms, it can take a while before anything shows. There's nothing anyone can do right now but wait and pay close attention to my body.

mtechgunman · Dec 3, 2015

Strouty said:
I knew about this and I tell people about it any chance I get, amazing how few welders know about it.

I wonder if it is only because of the chlorinated elements, they make non chlorinated brake cleaner.

It is products with Tetrachloroethylene in them. The Brake Clean that comes in a green can is free of it I believe.

zmotorsports · Dec 3, 2015

Glad to hear you weren't immediately effected worse than you were.

Your right, this information is commonly known by a lot of us in the industry but to those who are not aware have no idea of what is happening to them.

This is still good information to communicate and pass along.

I stopped using chlorinated (tetrachlorethylene) brake cleaner many years ago and generally wipe welding rods, material, etc down with acetone rather than brake cleaner but I still tell friends and co-workers about this information as a refresher and it never fails there is always someone who mentions that they had never heard of it.

So YES, communicating this is a good thing.

Mike.

mtechgunman · Dec 3, 2015

Fellas- I really appreciate the urges to go to the doc. There's just nothing the doc can do at the moment. My wife and mother both worked medical and have both listened to my lungs and checked oxygen, blood pressure, heart rate etc etc. There's nothing out of the ordinary at the moment but we are paying very close attention to it.

We have great health insurance and money isn't an issue, we just believe they'd find nothing at the moment so we are in wait and see mode.

alpinewhite · Dec 3, 2015

Is acetone the only safe thing to use prior to welding? What about others like paint thinner or lacquer thinner? If Walter White is on this board, please chime in.

chruler · Dec 3, 2015

You are so fortunate to have people with medical backgrounds nearby. So sorry to hear about this. I never knew about it either.

Have a beer for your health! :beer:

chruler · Dec 3, 2015

alpinewhite said:
Is acetone the only safe thing to use prior to welding? What about others like paint thinner or lacquer thinner? If Walter White is on this board, please chime in.

Any time you burn something you run a risk of releasing poisonous gas.

Bobcat753 · Dec 3, 2015

I never use any chemical prior to welding. Either weld it up or use the appropriate wire brush or scotch brite to clean the surface. With steel I hit it with the angle grinder or wire wheel. You should only use acetone if it is a very critical/clean weldment I.E titanium pipe.

kkroger · Dec 3, 2015

Basically whatever solvent you do use prior to welding you need to allow to flash off and DRY before you weld. Acetone is very fast drying... some brake cleaners are as well.
if you let it dry before you weld the aromatic solvents will dissipate if you weld with it wet you run risk, even if the solvents evaporate they leave behind trace elements...

sberry · Dec 3, 2015

kkroger said:
Basically whatever solvent you do use prior to welding you need to allow to flash off and DRY before you weld. Acetone is very fast drying... some brake cleaners are as well.
if you let it dry before you weld the aromatic solvents will dissipate if you weld with it wet you run risk, even if the solvents evaporate they leave behind trace elements...

right. Once it's all gone and gone from air it's not an issue. It is very fine and really hangs around. Wet is the real problem as well as poor air clearing.

gungatim · Dec 3, 2015

I thought brakleen evaporated completely and left no trace behind? is that false thinking?

curious if the heat from braking hot enough to give off gas from the rotor too?

I don't use it for cleaning metal prior to welding (usually just a wire wheel), but use it all the time to clean metal before painting and never had any issues with paint not sticking bubbling, etc. not talking auto paint, just spray cans...always thought it dissolved oils and evaporated completely...thanks for the warning.

mike93lx · Dec 3, 2015

mtechgunman said:
Fellas- I really appreciate the urges to go to the doc. There's just nothing the doc can do at the moment. My wife and mother both worked medical and have both listened to my lungs and checked oxygen, blood pressure, heart rate etc etc. There's nothing out of the ordinary at the moment but we are paying very close attention to it.

We have great health insurance and money isn't an issue, we just believe they'd find nothing at the moment so we are in wait and see mode.

I love it when people that aren't doctors say stuff like this.

If your wife isn't a doctor, she ia missing training that she doesn't even know exists. My wife in an NP and knows when something is beyond her expertise.

The benefit of going now is to make your doc aware and to set a baseline so when you start coughing blood, you can be treated quicker.

That said, obviously do what you want, no skin off any of our backs

DenisG · Dec 3, 2015

You inhaled a gas that almost killed you, but you didn't feel the need to go see a doctor to get evaluated? :dunno:

chruler · Dec 3, 2015

Yes, vapors can be very dangerous.

davidw · Dec 3, 2015

Wow man. Thanks for the warning. I am not a welder, but I use brake cleaner for cleaning up greasy **** all the time. I never knew it can change when heated. I wouldn't think twice about spraying something down and then firing up a torch. I will now though. :eyecrazy:

SteveH-CO · Dec 3, 2015

The non-chlorinated brake cleaners are extremely flammable, so neither version of 'brake cleaner' (or rags soaked with them) are ideal in a welding environment.

Tetrachlorethylene production has ceased in the US, but existing stocks can be sold, which is why you can still buy the 'red can' of brake cleaner (and gallon jugs). I have stocked up for the future, when you won't be able to get it at all. It's being banned due to the chlorine (upper atmosphere issues).

steel 35 · Dec 3, 2015

I would take a bet you didn't take two breaths. I still remember seeing the cloud of white smoke before it hit me; A co worker cleaned it for me.

Evilunclegrimace · Dec 3, 2015

Strouty said:
I knew about this and I tell people about it any chance I get, amazing how few welders know about it.

I wonder if it is only because of the chlorinated elements, they make non chlorinated brake cleaner.

That is all that we can buy here

Brian_WK · Dec 3, 2015

Never knew about the phosgene gas and brake clean never really thought about it.
Dealt with it alot in burning refrigerant when brazing. You never get more then a breath of it before getting out of there to clear your lungs and eyes. I've been hit with more then a few dozen times. the effects are temporary in the dosage you are receiving as you are not getting a 100% concentrated as it fairly diluted and small amount.
Worst I ever had it was when a grocery store split a hot gas line on a freezer rack system and 650# of R-502 went into the building. The pilot lights from the water heaters and hanging unit heaters was burning the refrigerant and creating the gas when I walked in the front door it was like getting hit in the face. The grocery store owner was walking around in there and letting customers shop. I had him evacuate the store and called the FD and I shut the natural gas off to the building. The store had no refrigerant monitor in the equipment room and not ways to purge the building. So when the FD showed up and after them doing a sweep of the store to make sure no-one had passed out from the displacement of oxygen. They had me ******** a SCBA and 2 Fire fighters went up with me so I could isolate the leak and shut down the rack. I was carrying a handheld leak detector that by the time was back by the stairs to the equipment room it had pegged at its max level of 100,000 PPM. If one of the stock room workers / owner would have walked into the back room and stayed for anything more then a few seconds they would have been KO'ed.

Brian

csp · Dec 3, 2015

SteveH-CO said:
The non-chlorinated brake cleaners are extremely flammable, so neither version of 'brake cleaner' (or rags soaked with them) are ideal in a welding environment.

You could say that about any petroleum based solvent that people use to clean steel with. As with anything a healthy dose of common sense is priceless in this case. Too bad it's so uncommon.

Macrosloth · Dec 3, 2015

Going to throw this out there - Isopropanol alcohol. Should flash off relatively fast and safe otherwise I think...

Thoughts?

TauntDevil · Dec 3, 2015

This is a pretty serious issue though it is back and forth. Brake cleaner is dangerous but if you cleaned metal with it maybe a day or so ago and are working on it today, it is not as bad as it has already dried up and isn't going to effect you as much if at all.
Its more of a direct soon after type of thing. If you use brake cleaner, give it at minimum a full day before working on the piece at least. Not saying to use it, saying that if you know something got used with brake cleaner, to wait it out.

Otherwise, use Acetone and again, wait until it has evaporated and dried up. Acetone evaporates quickly so usually can give it about 5-10 minutes if that before welding. This is what I use and it works great, have never had an issue and neither has my friend who is 42 and has been welding since his early 20's. Keep safe and weld on!

FTG-05 · Dec 3, 2015

Thanks for the warning!

I hope you get well soon!

Professur · Dec 3, 2015

There's never enough warnings about phosgene gas.

But if you caught the lung full you say you did and are still posting tomorrow, you didn't get phosgened. A whiff of that stuff causes fast, permanent damage. That said, there's plenty of other gases that can ruin you day. I keep acetone and isopropyl alcohol for cleaning. The only thing I use brake cleaner for is brakes. I heard Stacey David talk about phosgene before I bought my first mig ... and brake cleaner was never part of my welding tool kit.

sberry · Dec 3, 2015

I really don't like using it indoors. Bad with unvented heaters.

pi_guy · Dec 3, 2015

Most chlorine and fluorine compounds can be very toxic when broken down chemically.
But the most common way to get poisoned was inhaling the gas through a cigarette. This provided a proper method for breaking the stable compound into phosgene gas.
Started playing in a chemistry lab from a young age, I really have only washed stuff in water based cleaners if I was going to weld it. If I was forced to use a possibly toxic chemical <or nobody could tell me why it was that clean> I would do a final wash in water based and then dry with a torch and air blowing away.

csp · Dec 3, 2015

Too bad so many folks are referring to just brake cleaner. There's chlorinated and non-chlorinated. The phospene gas issue is not applicable to the non-chlorinated.

dreamingmuscle · Dec 3, 2015

Anyone heard from mtechgunman?

D. Patina · Dec 4, 2015

Wow, I didn't know that. I'm not a welder, but I own one and do odd jobs with it on my car. Last used about 3 years ago. I use brake cleaner to clean up all kinds of stuff. Recently used it to clean up a used and abused chain saw.

gungatim · Dec 4, 2015

what about carb cleaner? same issues? are they chlorinated? I know today's carb cleaners are no where near as potent as the older ones, but I use that to clean stuff (not necessarily for welding, usually painting again) when I don't have brakleen...

I've also used isopropyl alcohol but there's a lot of water in that, so it doesn't work as well and takes much longer to dry.

mtechgunman · Dec 4, 2015

dreamingmuscle said:
Anyone heard from mtechgunman?

Lol, I am alive and well. No issues.

mtechgunman · Dec 4, 2015

Professur said:
There's never enough warnings about phosgene gas.

But if you caught the lung full you say you did and are still posting tomorrow, you didn't get phosgened. A whiff of that stuff causes fast, permanent damage. That said, there's plenty of other gases that can ruin you day. I keep acetone and isopropyl alcohol for cleaning. The only thing I use brake cleaner for is brakes. I heard Stacey David talk about phosgene before I bought my first mig ... and brake cleaner was never part of my welding tool kit.

Maybe it wasn't phosgene, but whatever it was was absolutely nasty and had me very concerned. The usage of brake cleaner and the horrible reaction my lungs had to it had me putting 2 and 2 together and that was most obvious conclusion.

coldh2o · Dec 4, 2015

SteveH-CO said:
I have stocked up for the future, when you won't be able to get it at all. It's being banned due to the chlorine (upper atmosphere issues).

Kudos on doing your part to save the environment...

Strouty · Dec 4, 2015

Glad to hear you are still with us. I use acetone a lot for cleaning parts before welding, I am not a fan of brake cleaner, my buddy uses it to wash his hands.

steel 35 · Dec 4, 2015

mtechgunman said:
Maybe it wasn't phosgene, but whatever it was was absolutely nasty and had me very concerned. The usage of brake cleaner and the horrible reaction my lungs had to it had me putting 2 and 2 together and that was most obvious conclusion.

Glad he was talking to you, Cause I would call ********. :thumbup:

sleepy127 · Dec 4, 2015

What was your gas in your mig? From what I understand the addition of argon and heat is what creates the gas.
Not that superheated brake cleaner by itself cant be deadly but the addition of argon could have meant the difference between life and death. Not a chemist though so there could be something I'm missing.

A warning to welders/auto guys

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