Anyone built a garage in a flood zone?

reader2580 · Feb 20, 2016

I have plans to build a large garage several years in the future. FEMA just redrew the flood maps and now the buildable portion of my property is in an a flood zone (zone A). The city says I cannot build anything, even a shed, in a flood zone.

Has anyone had luck with building a garage in a flood zone, maybe by elevating the garage a few feet? Because I am at the very edge of the flood zone my property is not very far below the estimated flood level. It is hard to get a good answer from the city right now because I don't know either the exact size or the exact location where I would put a garage. Size and location depends a lot on how much building the garage would cost.

I really don't want to have to spend $20,000+ to move again just to be able to build a garage.

lilredex · Feb 20, 2016

Like this??

Our basement was flooded a couple of years ago and I never want to have that happen again. You never get back to where you were.

kd3pc · Feb 20, 2016

WHY would you tempt that terrible woman, Mother Nature???

Flood zones are there, to discourage (some states/localities - prohibit) development.

I think that the city will continue to prevail, and prohibit the building of anything in that area. Usually cities, or any one else, can not force FEMA.

I am not sure any strategy for you to prevail and build, will be possible.

Move on, or sell and buy in a suitable area to build, without FEMA issues or flood insurance.

LB-1911 · Feb 20, 2016

reader2580 said:
I have plans to build a large garage several years in the future. FEMA just redrew the flood maps and now the buildable portion of my property is in an a flood zone (zone A). The city says I cannot build anything, even a shed, in a flood zone.

Has anyone had luck with building a garage in a flood zone, maybe by elevating the garage a few feet? Because I am at the very edge of the flood zone my property is not very far below the estimated flood level.

It is hard to get a good answer from the city right now because I don't know either the exact size or the exact location where I would put a garage.

Size and location depends a lot on how much building the garage would cost.

I really don't want to have to spend $20,000+ to move again just to be able to build a garage.

You need to draw a site plan -

With this being a recent update /change to the flood zone I would not anticipate much in regards to encroachment into the newly defined flood zone.

reader2580 · Feb 20, 2016

It is going to **** if I have to move as I will never have a house as nice as this again. This house has been totally renovated from top to bottom. The reality is the cost of selling and moving means I probably won't ever do it until retirement in 20 years as I couldn't afford a garage after all the costs of moving. Most houses in my price range are split level and I will never live in a split level house!

I spent hundreds of hours doing research to find a house in a city where I could actually build the garage of my dreams. Most cities in the area simply won't let you build a garage tall enough and long enough to house a 43 foot motorhome. The main reason I bought this house is because of the acre plus of flat dry land I could build my future garage on.

My understanding is the flood maps only show about two feet of water on the property in a 100 year flood. If there was something like 10 feet of water my house would be flooded and my house is outside of the flood zone.

My uncle lives right on the ocean and his house was destroyed in hurricane Sandy. He is definitely in a flood zone and he was allowed to rebuild. The government even gave him a $75,000 grant as long as the house was elevated six or eight feet.

reader2580 · Feb 20, 2016

LB-1911 said:
You need to draw a site plan -

With this being a recent update /change to the flood zone I would not anticipate much in regards to encroachment into the newly defined flood zone.

Most of my neighbors who were already in the flood zone mapped in the 1970s have LOMAs so they don't need flood insurance. Those properties were already in the flood zone in 1980 when built so I don't know how they were allowed to build in the first place.

I think it is going to be a no win situation without moving.

Duckfarmer27 · Feb 20, 2016

In my working life I was involved in putting in a large industrial building that is, literally, on the very edge of a 100 year flood level. Few years ago the 'hundred year flood' happened and the water lapped at the edge of the building.

That said, I have seen people locally challenge the boundary of the flood line. My recollection is that it is based totally on the elevation and that in turn depends upon how the map was developed. Can be done any number of ways - satellite GPS is, I believe, the most common now. I would recommend talking to whoever the source of the data is. Anything short of an on the ground determination could have some error at the boundary - that is just the nature of whatever technology is used. And by an on the ground determination I am talking about a licensed land surveyor with the proper equipment. Your hand held GPS won't cut it to make a case.

That being said, I was sitting for a long time today in a meeting our church had about building decisions we have to make. One option is in a flood plain. I'll give you the same advice I offered there - I've cleaned up after 2 floods in my life time and I never want to own a piece of property that is in a flood plain. Period. It's a matter of when you have a flood, not if.

Just my 2 cents for what it is worth - which is not much!

Dale

landlord30 · Feb 20, 2016

How about bringing in clean fill and build the area up? Without a picture it's hard to get an idea of what may be possible. Since your several years off you have time to get it brought in and settle.

tomroblee · Feb 20, 2016

I don't have any personal experience but I was curious enough to do a little online research.

It appears that FEMA allows building in floodplain---with a lot of vague restrictions.

http://www.fema.gov/media-library-d...3daac/ReducingFloodLosses_4thED_Final_508.pdf

It also appears that Minnesota allows building in "flood fringe" areas. From what you say, your property seems like it would be in a "flood fringe" area as opposed to a "floodway".

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/floodplain/faqs_answers.html

From what I read, FEMA seems to set up the general guidelines for reducing flood losses. In order for residents of a state to participate in the federal flood insurance (and other programs?) the state must adopts laws and/or regulations that conform to the general guideline established by FEMA.

Minnesota's program seems to fall under the Department of Natural Resources.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/floodplain/index.htm

The real messy part is at the local level. Depending on the area, jurisdiction may fall under any number of agencies, and generally multiple agencies are involved with overlapping authority. In other words, you may have to deal with state agencies, county agencies, city agencies, and who knows what else. State regulations may allow you to build a garage on fill. Zoning may prohibit building entirely. The building code enforcement department may have even different ideas. If you have a mortgage, the mortgage holder may have objections even if the governmental agencies approve your plans. You insurance company may have another set of standards.

Maybe you could trade in your 43' motorhome for a 43' boat and build a boathouse rather than a garage?

CNGsaves · Feb 20, 2016

+1 to put out word you're wanting Clean Fill dumped in your yard and dumptrucks will begin arriving shortly !!

There are houses in popular subdivision area that is across street from where swampland has been for decades and they built up property height and built "up on the hill" so to speak. Then, developers thought that area would be great for business and convinced city to fill in wetlands and constantly pump out water so Lowes, WalMart and other big stores could build there and take advantage of high-income residential housing nearby. It's worked so far as the tiny bit of ag land they left as wetland is now totally waterlogged from pumping into it, and businesses love the hottest market in town.

ANY . . . thing is possible with enough money and influence.
. . . .
. . . . . . . look at water pumping efforts in New Orleans !!!

coldh2o · Feb 20, 2016

landlord30 said:
How about bringing in clean fill and build the area up? Without a picture it's hard to get an idea of what may be possible. Since your several years off you have time to get it brought in and settle.

In most areas around here if you somehow manage to get approval to build in a floodplain (difficult), you have to provide a cut/fill balance ie. the volume of fill you bring in has to be balanced by an equal amount of excavation within the floodplain. The point is to maintain the available flood storage volume on your property and not increase flooding on neighbouring lands.

jhelrey · Feb 21, 2016

What city are you in out of curiosity?

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

I am in Ham Lake, MN. I am not near any creek, river, or lake. I think any flooding would come from some swampy areas a ways from my house.

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

CNGsaves said:
+1 to put out word you're wanting Clean Fill dumped in your yard and dumptrucks will begin arriving shortly !!

There are houses in popular subdivision area that is across street from where swampland has been for decades and they built up property height and built "up on the hill" so to speak. Then, developers thought that area would be great for business and convinced city to fill in wetlands and constantly pump out water so Lowes, WalMart and other big stores could build there and take advantage of high-income residential housing nearby. It's worked so far as the tiny bit of ag land they left as wetland is now totally waterlogged from pumping into it, and businesses love the hottest market in town.

ANY . . . thing is possible with enough money and influence.
. . . .
. . . . . . . look at water pumping efforts in New Orleans !!!

My lot is not considered a wetlands at all. There are a number of properties in the city that are unbuildable due to being wetlands. My property is high and dry. The soil drains so well that I don't even have a drain tile system for the basement. Basement has not been damp even with large amounts of rain.

NUTTSGT · Feb 21, 2016

After the flood we had locally in 2007, FEMA bought out several houses and they were tore down. Nothing will be built there again. There was one house that did stay, it was raised up several feet taking it out of the flood plain.

Like the others mentioned, check into having the area filled and build over that. I'd consider, if this is a garage and not huge to have a concrete stem wall/foundation built. In case it does flood again, you can sandbag the door ways to keep the majority of the water out.

HoosierMark · Feb 21, 2016

My brother has an app on his phone that gives him elevation. You may want to start there and see how high you would need to make the floor to be above the flood zone. You say everything drains well now. Have you consider some type of hybrid bank barn. Put a partial basement in for storage of movable things then take the dirt and build up the area for your RV on the "second" level. You could use the area above the lower level for workshop, storage etc. Yes if the flood comes you would need to pull your mowers, and other stuff to higher ground but maybe that would be minimal times.

My Old Tools · Feb 21, 2016

landlord30 said:
How about bringing in clean fill and build the area up? Without a picture it's hard to get an idea of what may be possible. Since your several years off you have time to get it brought in and settle.

That and a retaining wall. 4-5 feet might do it. How much slope do you have? Where is the line in relation to the build?

wssix99 · Feb 21, 2016

Well, whatever you do will be un-insurable. If you really want to make something, maybe you could take a page out of the casino playbook (like they do for river casinos) and make a floating building or a "movable building." Essentially call it a boat or a RV without an engine.

As I understand it, they pretty much put a concrete pad down in the river and set the casino on top of it. The building sits on the pad in low water and raises in high water.

Maybe you could do a modified version of this. Can you put down a pad in the area? If so, your garage could be a separate structure just sitting on it, like a RV, with RV electrical connections, etc. If a flood comes, maybe you could even design the structure so you could winch it on to higher ground?

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

The estimate of the level of flood water in that area is something like two feet for a 100 year flood. I could probably build a garage such that the floor is elevated two feet. I expect I would have plenty of warning of a flood so I could move my RV to higher ground. I only have to move it out to street to be out of flood zone.

Even if the building was filled with two feet of water there would be minimal damage as long I don't keep stuff on the floor. I don't live near a river, creek, or stream that could come up suddenly in a few hours if we got a lot of rain so I would probably have plenty of warning time.

kd3pc · Feb 21, 2016

reader2580 said:
The estimate of the level of flood water in that area is something like two feet for a 100 year flood. I could probably build a garage such that the floor is elevated two feet. I expect I would have plenty of warning of a flood so I could move my RV to higher ground. I only have to move it out to street to be out of flood zone.

Even if the building was filled with two feet of water there would be minimal damage as long I don't keep stuff on the floor. I don't live near a river, creek, or stream that could come up suddenly in a few hours if we got a lot of rain so I would probably have plenty of warning time.

What part of flood zone, FEMA, LOMA, etc....do you not understand? This seems to be an obsession for you, with no possibility of a success. Flood zones seldom honor structures, boundaries, river banks, bottom land, bridges, homes, etc.

See:
Flash flood.
100 year flood.
Flood plain.
Katrina flood estimate vs reality, flood estimate vs huge pumps on below sea level home sites.
Upper Mississippi River Floods
Even silly Nashville, TN Flood a few years back...+100 year plain - flooded

derosa · Feb 21, 2016

What about building on poles like they do along the ocean. Could add some costs but if you put in enough and have them high enough you'll need a ramp to get in but you could elevate it above the flood plain if you're that close to the edge.

jives · Feb 21, 2016

reader2580 said:
Even if the building was filled with two feet of water there would be minimal damage as long I don't keep stuff on the floor. I don't live near a river, creek, or stream that could come up suddenly in a few hours if we got a lot of rain so I would probably have plenty of warning time.

Big mistake to think this. 2 ft of water could destroy the building, carve out the foundation, and so forth.

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

kd3pc said:
What part of flood zone, FEMA, LOMA, etc....do you not understand? This seems to be an obsession for you, with no possibility of a success. Flood zones seldom honor structures, boundaries, river banks, bottom land, bridges, homes, etc.

My two choices are:

1. Stay at this house and build a garage in the flood zone.

2. Move to another house and NEVER build a garage.

It will cost me a minimum of $25,000 to move with commission, moving costs, and closing costs. That pushes out building a garage probably 15 years. Probably at least five years before I could move and then another 10 years to save enough to build a garage. I'll be 60 by then and the desire to have a big garage may have passed by then.

dallusglockin · Feb 21, 2016

Building in a floodplain is ok but you're going to to reamed on flood insurance. To defray the costs you need to build your finished floor 2' or above the base flood elevation. Since your garage will be in a zone A, base flood elevations may not be established for that area. Raising that floor can be done however you like. And whatever your building codes will allow.

You may be able to fill in a flood plain, but you'll need a FEMA permit to do so, AND you may have to (1) mitigate the fill with some cut in the flood plain or (2) submit an engineering report that says the fill does not adversely affect the upstream waster surface elevation. Either way, these are a pain to do.

You could write FEMA to see if they will revise the map and possibly get your property out of the flood plain. This may or may not work out. I am just curious as to why the map changed. Do you know the panel number? I'm curious to see what changed and the time between the 2 revised maps.

Dustball · Feb 21, 2016

reader2580 said:
My two choices are:

1. Stay at this house and build a garage in the flood zone.

2. Move to another house and NEVER build a garage.

It will cost me a minimum of $25,000 to move with commission, moving costs, and closing costs. That pushes out building a garage probably 15 years. Probably at least five years before I could move and then another 10 years to save enough to build a garage. I'll be 60 by then and the desire to have a big garage may have passed by then.

From your other thread-

They checked the flood map and determined the house is not actually in the flood zone. They are not requiring flood insurance on the garage because federal law no longer requires flood insurance on garages if the house is not in flood zone.

So, what's the problem? No flood insurance is required on your garage if you build one. Check with the city- if they'll let you build, then build.

kd3pc · Feb 21, 2016

One thing you all have not considered, is that any time in the future, FEMA can tighten and redo these same maps, many of which have stood for decades/centuries with little to no changes, regardless of what has happened or expenses incurred.

Elevations to work from have never been established in many areas of the country close enough to be chained to areas needed, and those that have been established by survey or datum are no longer valid to FEMA, as they require chain of evidence to a FEMA designated GPS/datum standard, not survey standard.

Best of luck to anyone who has to do this, or needs an elevation certificate. FEMA requires copious information, FIRM panel research, FEMA GPS work, Flood Insurance Study information and documentation and pictures - at least 3"x3" color, all within 30-90 days of certificate application in addition to the 12-20 page application itself.

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

Dustball said:
So, what's the problem? No flood insurance is required on your garage if you build one. Check with the city- if they'll let you build, then build.

The city says no building in a flood zone. This has nothing to do with flood insurance. I have an existing detached garage and would be building a second garage that would be in the flood zone. I would need to see if they would allow a building if it was above the base flood elevation.

One option I just thought is seeing if the neighbor might sell me a 1/4 chunk of his 10 acres. It would be really far from my house at like 400 feet versus 100 feet, but cheaper than having to move and that area is not in the flood zone. The neighbor's land is just an uneven overgrown field full of old junk. He and his friends use that part of his 10 acres to ride snowmobiles, dirt bikes, and ATVs.

The bad part is I would have to build a new driveway and it would have to be paved. It would also be a long ways to run electricity from my house. I would not be required to pave the driveway if I built on the other part of my land.

reader2580 · Feb 21, 2016

kd3pc said:
One thing you all have not considered, is that any time in the future, FEMA can tighten and redo these same maps, many of which have stood for decades/centuries with little to no changes, regardless of what has happened or expenses incurred.

I am well aware that flood maps can change since my property was not considered in a flood zone until Dec 16, 2015 when FEMA issued new maps.

I have a GIS map of my property from the county and it shows the various elevations across my property. How accurate they are is anybody's guess.

Anyone built a garage in a flood zone?

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