54x50' Monitor (Raised Roof) Style Shop w/ Loft, in Floor Heat, Possible ICF Walls

duwem · Jun 2, 2016

We moved last August to a newer larger house in the country with a 2 car attached, but no outbuilding other than a sketchy 16x16' joke of a garden shed. Last house had a 20x24 detached which was a nice start, but no room for work and storage.

SO, need to build a big shop/storage shed. Kicked around several ideas of a typical rectangle building with roof, but the Mrs insists it needs to look nice, not like a machine shed, so things got fancy (and $). I'm on board too though because it will be close to our house and very visible from the road.

We both agreed the Monitor style barn is neat looking. You typically see them as horse barns with an aisle down the middle and stalls on the wings. This is an expanded version of that minus the horses.

The building has not been finalized yet, so feel free to throw your thoughts out there.

Right now the center section is 30' wide, 50' deep with 16' ceiling. Wings are 12' wide with 8'4" ceiling to accommodate 7' overhead door height. Thinking either a 10' tall by 20' wide front door, or 12' high by 20'. I have no need for a 12' tall today, but some would argue future needs may require that, or resale for people that would want to put a camper in. Side door would be 18' wide by 7' high.

The back 20' of the center section would get a loft (so 30' wide by 20' deep) for a rec room and storage, maybe an office with windows overlooking the tall front section too. Would have drive under access from the front and side doors by using headers.

The lean to's would be used for a metal fab shop, woodworking shop, paint booth, utility room, bathroom and storage.

Center section would be for vehicle storage and a 2 post car lift.

Center section I'm thinking doing poles so the floor plan is more open for the future rooms, and either 2x6 or poles for the right and rear exterior walls.

The left wall into the hill I'm thinking of doing insulated concrete forms, since I plan to insulate and heat the building, and need a concrete retaining wall at least 7' tall there anyways to hold the hill back.

Will have foam put under the slab and in floor heat pipes run in the concrete, in several zones for the wings and center. Probably also hang a heater in the top corner of the big part to quickly heat that up for when I work in there.

Ok, enough talk for now, here are the pictures I have drawn up. Blue cubes are vehicles. There are a couple of extra lines the texturing didn't come though on but you get the idea.

duwem · Jun 2, 2016

Soon after moving in I had diggers hotline come in and locate all the utilities. Of course propane, electrical, and cable all ran right though the most logical building site, so I worked to have them all moved. Propane and cable were free, electrical was $1500.

Was talking with excavators and got a quote from a local guy to dig out the hill to level the jobsite, haul away the fill, dig the footings, bring in gravel and backfill the walls once up. Was a decent price for all that work, then about a week later he called back and said he found someone that wants the fill an they will front the trucking charges and he could knock $1600 off my bill if they did it soon. So, we were off!

Since I knew the grass was gona get dug up, the long weekend I rented a sod cutter and relocated the sod to where they trenched in the utilities:

Yesterday the digger came with a nice big hoe.

4.5 hours and 22 dump truck loads hauled away, I had a flat build site.

After watching them dig all morning, I was itching to go play with my tractor so I back dragged it all smooth.

That's where it sits as of now. Have not finalized a design or picked a builder. Have some quotes but the design has been evolving over time so nothing set in stone yet. Hoping to have the shell put up before winter.

Joe13 · Jun 2, 2016

The more buildings I see in this style, the more I like them. this is going to be a awesome building! definitely moved a lot of material. cant wait for more updates.

Riley · Jun 2, 2016

Looks great!

You really get a feel for how large a site it is seeing your tractor in there opposed to the track hoe. He must have been just short of filling half a truck with each scoop.

I like the monitor style. There have been several great threads on them here over the years.

Looking forward to seeing you move along with your project.

56vette461 · Jun 2, 2016

You will never regret the tall ceiling heights. There are so many options left to the future. While heating the spaces for all year round uses is still a problem, I know several who have included "winter" shop areas for cold weather working and as protection from rust or other related issues. I love the style. It will be fun watching your progress

duwem · Jun 2, 2016

Thanks guys!

Forgot one pict I wanted to add. Hoping to get a good view of this out those windows in the loft.

theoldwizard1 · Jun 2, 2016

My buddy built a monitor style barn, but the wings are not enclosed. His wife parks her gooseneck horse trailer/camper under on wing and he parks his utility trainers under the other wing. Second floor is for hay storage, but thos floor joist could hold a couple of cars !

The monitor is directly connected to and old single story barn that has about 6-8 horse stalls (3-4 on each side). This part is over 50 years old but sturdy and they ran the new metal siding completely down both sides.

theoldwizard1 · Jun 2, 2016

You need to plan some SERIOUS drainage on that uphill section.

Jay W · Jun 2, 2016

Being 16' tall in the center I would definitely go with a 14' tall door. That would allow any RV to fit.

duwem · Jun 2, 2016

Wizzard are you talking the back side where its tapered up? That's set back like 15' from the back of the shed. Will have a channel back there to keep the water from running to the shed. Mat need a 1-2' tall concert wall on the backside of the building. I would like to put up a retaining wall like 15' behind the shed but that's in my lot setback area and they call a retaining wall a structure and its not allowed.

I want to keep the door size to a minimum height for appearance.

Would cost them some money, but the next owner could raise the header and put in a larger door without a ton of work

Riley · Jun 5, 2016

Might consider just placing the header for them, building down to your desired door size. Same lumber use and it's done for resale down the road.

MagKarl · Jun 6, 2016

I'd also recommend at least one tall door on the front, high ceiling and low doors really limits your options down the road.

duwem · Jun 6, 2016

Maybe I will compromise on a 12' tall door. Just going to be starting at that big white beast each time I pull in the driveway. Goal is to make it look more like an old barn than a machine shed.

Any other thoughts on the overall design, layout etc?

duwem · Jun 7, 2016

8/12 pitch with 16'4" side walls gives 28' to then peak. Plus a few feet for the coupola.

6/12 knocks about 3' off of that height.

mike93lx · Jun 7, 2016

There is a barn around the corner from me with a large overhead door hidden behind more traditional sliding barn doors. Looks like a normal, old school barn when it's all closed up. Maybe something to consider.

I will second the suggestion to place the header for a 14' door and build down. A new owner could just open it up, add another section or two to the door and be in business.

larry4406 · Jun 7, 2016

I would change the side garage doors from 7' to 8' tall as a minimum.

Good luck with the project!

duwem · Jun 7, 2016

Mike, I did see an example of that, and it does look good, but no easy way to power that so if you were going to be driving a vehicle out of there daily you would have to deal with the sliding doors manually. and sliding doors with ice and snow can be a PITA in the winter.

Larry, if I do that than that moves the roof up and reduced room to put windows between the peaks. So I would have to put smaller than 2' tall windows or raise the center section which is already quite high. Almost everything I own is under 7' tall.

Riley · Jun 10, 2016

"Almost".....

I like to overall space use. The side door is a great idea as is the loft space.

When you say you'll have to be looking at the door, so the back side is towards the road and the side door is off the drive?

duwem · Jun 10, 2016

Here is the site, driveway and "front" on the bottom of the picture seen from road and when driving in.

Will also see the one side with the smaller overhead door from the yard/house.

duwem · Jun 15, 2016

Both pole barn companies have visited the site recently now that its dug out and are figuring the cost of the retaining walls. Right now there is a BIG difference in price between the 2, so will have to see where the final costs come in, but I have a feeling that difference will just get larger.

madoc1 · Jun 15, 2016

looks like it will be nice. will be following this as it seems you have given it a lot of thought.

jim

duwem · Jul 5, 2016

Getting close to some final quotes. 2 well known pole building guys, essentially the same building, concrete retaining wall for hill, concrete floor with insulation under and pex, one guy is $32,000 more!!! That's almost 50% higher.

The cheaper guy said would need to drop the lean to's roof pitch to 3/12 to fit the windows if I go 12' wide on those leans. Doesn't sound ideal with all the snow load coming off the main roof and plopping on those leans.

duwem · Jul 20, 2016

Cheaper guy got me a quote to put up ICF retaining walls vs regular wall with foam on the outside. Was $5000 adder, pretty hefty cost. When I was talking to the ICF manufacturer the materials were under $2000 for the forms...

Banks are not helping with a loan. Said that the building only adds about 50% of its cost to the value of the property. And they base the value of the building off comparables done by an appraisal. So a monitor style will cost a lot more to build than a 50x50 clear span plain roof style. SO may be looking at downsizing, simplifying, or saving longer.

One technical question. Some guys are saying just run a grade beam (thickened footing all the way around the building and then build the 8' tall retaining wall on top of it where needed, and pour the slab over the grade beam.

Others are saying I need a 4' deep footing below the 8' tall retaining wall.

And it seems to depend on if I'm heating the building or not, which I wont be until I can save up for insulation and a heating system. Plan still is insulation under the slab and pex in the concrete but might be years before there is heat running through it.

Deezler · Jul 20, 2016

Yeah that stupid appraisal system is really something, huh. Basically the appraiser gets to just pick the comparable properties as they want, and make adjustments up or down as they see fit. Really a **** shoot. If you got a bad one, you might try requesting another opinion from your bank? I had to get a second one for our home build a couple years ago. Second one came back $90k above the first one and changed everything.

Appraisers are not sophisticated enough to distinguish the value of architectural styles and build quality. They will just tick a few feature check boxes and compare size. Pretty stupid system but I do understand that lending banks really don't have a better option to use in valuing projects/builds.

I just had an appraisal on Monday for my finished house to now include a 30x36 3-car garage (pole barn) also, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed until it comes back. I'm building a pole barn because I'm quite sure a custom designed and stick built garage would cost a lot more, and my bank wouldn't value it accordingly, thus I wouldn't be able to afford it. We'll see.

Good luck with yours, sounds like a great plan.

duwem · Aug 18, 2016

Still no progress on a loan, but need to finalize a builder before appraisal can take place.

Builder #4 stopped over and we discussed his proposal yesterday. 2x6 walls 24" on center with trusses 4' on center. Would make it a lot easier to insulate and finish off than a pole building.

They have $28,000 in concrete between the footings, grade beams, floor and retaining walls. OUCH, but they are going to take a lot at the lot again and see what could be done if the building were moved slightly or something creative with landscaping.

hemifalcon · Aug 18, 2016

Great plans.. Beautiful style to the building.. What's more important--style and appearance--or functionality and affordability? If you're looking at getting a loan-and that's not an issue--then make it pretty.. I ultimately went with a good looking basic building with proper styling and colors--and I'm very happy.. I don't owe a dime and have scrounged where necessary.. I'm still VERY happy with my pole barn.. The more I do on the inside--the better it gets..

duwem · Aug 19, 2016

Ya, its an interesting balance of looks, cost, size, efficiency and functionality.

SiGmA_X · Aug 21, 2016

I think the monitor design is the way to go. It looks so much better, and you're going to have to look at it for a long time. If you aren't in the financial position to do it now, waiting may be the better option.

Are you working with an engineer to design the retaining wall? That is who my locality (and general construction logic..) requires to design and stamp all foundation plans.

duwem · Aug 22, 2016

We were driving around and saw an older garage with double doors with windows at the top and some old vintage lights. The MRS likes that, so may swap out the single 18x7 with twin 8x7 or 9x7

Reduces some accessibility and makes that area a bit wider due to the gap in the middle. Something to play around with in the designs though. That side of the shed does face the house/kitchen/patio, so that is worth considering.

duwem · Oct 5, 2016

Playing around with double doors. Twin 9' on the side and 12' on the front. Going to try changing the fronts to 10s as the 12s look quite big.

Riley · Oct 5, 2016

Looks like its coming along nicely!

I'd think the tall doors provide the ability to pull something in on a trailer that would otherwise have to off loaded then maneuvered into the space.

Thanks for keeping your thread updated. It's always nice to hear about the decision points and factors associated with those as you go.

As for the ICF's, I've seen articles with owners setting those themselves. I don't think it's technically challenging. Might check into "Fast Foot" too.

sean Buick 76 · Oct 5, 2016

Awesome project! Have you considered "lego blocks"? I know I can get these for $70 each here and it would save a ton of money for your retaining wall you can even bolt them together with steel plates and hilti bolts.

https://www.armtec.com/product/lego-blocks/

duwem · Oct 6, 2016

Interesting blocks, but they look heavy (requires big equip to ship and move) and lots of joints to seal up and way overkill for me.

The company I'm looking at for the ICF's promotes ease of installation for homeowners. They rent out supports/scaffold for the pour too.

Trying to figure out the front door(S) and where the lift should go. Buddy says I want it far away from the wall or I'm not going to like it. His is 6' and hes wishing he had more some times!

What are others thoughts on the 30x30 area where I want to put a lift and a vehicle next to it, and have access to both with door(s)

Riley · Oct 6, 2016

I thought the rule of thumb for lift placement was

"far enough to get an axle out of the side closest to the wall"...

Everything else is over kill....30 X 30 is a pretty good sized space too...

Even if you had a 10 ft spacing on the columns you could be five ft off the wall and be to the center leaving the whole 15ft on the other side.

I'd take a picture of my 20X22 attached with a 16 ft door and about 18 ft of floor space and a curb with 2 smallish cars, a zero turn, a motorcycle, a push mower, several bicycles, and 3 double door stonghold cabinets but it's just an embarrassing mess...

wssix99 · Oct 6, 2016

+1 on the lift placement methodology for axles.

duwem said:
The company I'm looking at for the ICF's promotes ease of installation for homeowners. They rent out supports/scaffold for the pour too.

For a single ICF wall for the retaining wall, you could pull it off. It's nowhere as easy as it seems or as easy as its promoted to be, but if you take your time and read the instructions, you'll end up with a good product. The connect of the ICF wall too your frame walls is a little tricky and there aren't a lot of good instructions for that - but It can be done. (I have several walls like that on my house.)

One thing I would do is extend the retaining wall (poured concrete or ICF all the way to the bottom of the trusses. Having a short section of frame on top of the concrete wall is going to make finishies a pain in the rear.

Riley · Oct 6, 2016

PS - It might buy some room to put the stairs under the loft against a side or back wall unless you have specific machinery requirements that make floor space utilization better towards the doors..

duwem · Oct 6, 2016

Yes stairs will go under loft not in the main bay. My thoughts on the lift would be put the pole 3' from the side wall, assuming lift is 11-12' wide that still gives the full 15' on the other bay. Reason for double front doors would allow a wider gap between the 2 areas. With a single 20' door would be a tough angle to get on the lift and away from it on the other side. 12' wide doors kind of overwhelm the front face of the building so I will draw up with 10' wide to see how that looks.

The contact I have for ICF is one of the guys that created the produce for their company so he is very knowledgable. I do have a manual they gave me. It's TF Systems. They have plastic frames and vertical insulation that slides into the frames. Of course supporting for the pour to keep the wall straight and prevent blowouts is key.

wssix99 · Oct 6, 2016

duwem said:
The contact I have for ICF is one of the guys that created the produce for their company so he is very knowledgable. I do have a manual they gave me. It's TF Systems. They have plastic frames and vertical insulation that slides into the frames. Of course supporting for the pour to keep the wall straight and prevent blowouts is key.

My wife has built a number of ICF houses using a similar system and it hell for an entire building. If you are doing just the one straight wall, with no penetrations, then I'd think it should go together pretty smoothly. (You don't have a lot of the "gotchas" that a full ICF building would have.)

If you go this route, you may want to price this system against the more modern/conventional Fox Blocks system from Menard's, just to make sure you are getting a good deal. (If I had to do a small ICF wall, this is probably the way I'd go. When we did our house, we ordered through a different company and had enough volume to take full load semi deliveries.)

Terrick down Under · Oct 7, 2016

G'day, here are a couple of pics if you are interested. The walls are 9' and 12' high with 10" blocks. This is my underground house...the upstairs part is what you can see.

Yes it can be slower, but the benefits are large. You can save a lot of money doing it yourself.
There are more details on my thread.

duwem · Oct 9, 2016

Here is what the front looks like with double 10' doors with a 3' space in between.

And playing around a whole bunch with loft spacing to the wall and distance between the doors:

24" in the center of the doors and 30" lift post to wall lines the doorway right up with the center of the lift. not to say 6" off is that big of a deal driving a car in, can line it up as get closer. That is showing a 12' wide lift, 11' wide is also an option, but seems wider is better to me.

54x50' Monitor (Raised Roof) Style Shop w/ Loft, in Floor Heat, Possible ICF Walls

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