Anyone have solar?

minytrker · Aug 16, 2016

Got a quote for a 70 panel system for $63k. I am hooking my shop electical to my main 200 amp service so I would hardly ever have an electrical bill. Almost sounds to good to be true. COmes with 25 year warranty and an energy guarantee for 25 years, if the system doesnt ever make the electricity it should the solar company pays you the difference.

Fixin'Stuff · Aug 16, 2016

minytrker said:
Got a quote for a 70 panel system for $63k.

No I don't, and that $63K is why.

If you figure in interest charges for the mortgage on the solar system, the payback time gets to be VERY long. Meanwhile, that 25 year warranty is only as good as the company that makes them. Solar makers go out of business at an alarming rate and their warranty expires the day they close.

But, from what I've read about solar systems, the main failure point is the inverters. The panels themselves tend to last a while, but still have a failure rate above zero.

wyliesdiesels · Aug 16, 2016

What company is it?

Kaizen · Aug 16, 2016

I would love to but would never get my money back out of it. my state doesn't do any programs. only question is what is your monthly normal electric bill. if its about what it cost to put those up maybe worth it. not a win just a different bill. a win would be if you were making money from selling extra back to the power co. I read someplace that some utilities will credit your home account with extra so check it out.

Git · Aug 16, 2016

When comparison shopping for a Solar System you need to figure out the "Cost Per Watt"

You said you are looking at 70 panels - how many watts can each panel produce? Then multiply 70 panels x wattage to get your system size in watts

example 70 panels @ 250 watt per panel (lower end panel) = 17,500 watts system

Then take the total out-of-pocket cost of the system that you are considering (BEFORE any incentives) and divide it by the number of watts of capacity in the system.

Example, if you were paying $63K and had a 17,500 watt system:
($63,000 / 17,500W =) $3.60 per watt installed.

Also, Buy or Lease?

Panels - what make and what is the wattage per panel?

Inverter - what type (string, micro, optimizer) what make?

The Feds still offer 30% Tax Rebate - taken from the total out of pocket costs

The "Credit Thing" is called 'net metering' is when you have a "Grid Tied" system. During the day any excess electricity you produce flows back through your meter to the 'grid' and you get a credit for it. At night when your system is not producing, you pull electricity from the grid and you get a debit for it. At the end of 12 months you have 'true up'. If you used more than you produce - you pay the difference. If you used less, you roll it back over for next year as a credit or you could ask for a check

Inverters can be warrantied for up to 25 years. A string inverter, depending on it's size is less than $2,000 and can be changed out in less than hour

tyme2par4 · Aug 16, 2016

Kaizen said:
I would love to but would never get my money back out of it. my state doesn't do any programs. only question is what is your monthly normal electric bill. if its about what it cost to put those up maybe worth it. not a win just a different bill. a win would be if you were making money from selling extra back to the power co. I read someplace that some utilities will credit your home account with extra so check it out.

What state are you in. I'm also in New England, and I thought just about everyone up here had some form of rebate.

In most states you have net metering, so any excess you have, becomes a credit on your bill. That credit can be used later, or some will actually cut you a check at the end of the year.

I'll be putting solar up on my parents house sometime in the next couple of weeks. The equipment all got delivered yesterday I believe.

Davefr · Aug 16, 2016

My advice is to look very closely at ROI/Payback and do your own math.

I was about to go solar but the calculations including all the incentives came out to about 13 years payback.

That meant I'd be upside down until 2029. Then I'd have a system possibly nearing the end of it's it's useful life or even obsolete based on new technology. (ex: solar cell output slowly degrades over time and invertor technology is always improving)

minytrker · Aug 16, 2016

Our monthly average is 2600kW/month over the last 2 years. The company is Sunpro.
70 LG285 Watt Panels
70 Enphase Microinverters
25 year parts & labor warranty
lifetime monitoring

Would finance $42,669 @ 2.99% for 12 years. $363/month vs my current $300/month average electric bill currently.

paranoid56 · Aug 16, 2016

The other thing that a lot of people dont agree with is that it is a more green type of energy, so that maybe enough to justify it yourself.

and wile Davefr is kinda right, but any tech thats out right now is always obsolete with new **** coming out every day. so if you play the game of "will wait for the better tech" you will always be waiting and waiting.

Git · Aug 16, 2016

minytrker said:
Our monthly average is 2600kW/month over the last 2 years. The company is Sunpro.
70 LG285 Watt Panels
70 Enphase Microinverters
25 year parts & labor warranty
lifetime monitoring

Would finance $42,669 @ 2.99% for 12 years. $363/month vs my current $300/month average electric bill currently.

So using your $63k figure, your looking at around $3.15 per watt

Why microinverters - do you have a shading problem?

minytrker · Aug 16, 2016

They said the microinverters on each panel was the best way to go. Im out in the country and my roof is always in the sun.

Todd.Brock · Aug 16, 2016

Interesting discussion! I am unfortunately In a shaded area that would never pay me back...

Has anyone read about proposals to separate out grid use ? This seems like it could impact the potential ROI
http://www.denverpost.com/2016/06/0...s-fierce-blowback-from-consumer-solar-groups/

rockwithjason · Aug 16, 2016

Power companies in the west have declared war on residential solar. The net metering rules were changed in nevada so that the rates killed the rooftop installs. You may have a decent rate today but tomorrow is not guaranteed

minytrker · Aug 16, 2016

rockwithjason said:
Power companies in the west have declared war on residential solar. The net metering rules were changed in nevada so that the rates killed the rooftop installs. You may have a decent rate today but tomorrow is not guaranteed

We were told you get locked in at the current rate when your install is done which is 1 to 1 credit right now.

Kaizen · Aug 16, 2016

tyme2par4 said:
What state are you in. I'm also in New England, and I thought just about everyone up here had some form of rebate.

In most states you have net metering, so any excess you have, becomes a credit on your bill. That credit can be used later, or some will actually cut you a check at the end of the year.

I'll be putting solar up on my parents house sometime in the next couple of weeks. The equipment all got delivered yesterday I believe.

I'm in nh. Mass gives so much along with Feds comes to half off if I remember. When I looked into it there wasn't much help which is why the companies leasing roof space is most of what people are doing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kaizen · Aug 16, 2016

minytrker said:
Would finance $42,669 @ 2.99% for 12 years. $363/month vs my current $300/month average electric bill currently.

I would do some serious research on the reduction of power over the years because that is the only thing that would make this financially above line

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Git · Aug 16, 2016

Micro Inverters are the most expensive way to go

With micro inverters - everything is on the roof so you won't have the larger string type inverter mounted on the side of your house near your main panel.

With that being said, some people feel that have the micro inverters on the roof with the panel, exposes them to more heat and heat can lead to failures. The main advantage to micro inverters is when you have shade issues. With a regular string inverter, if some of the panels get shade - it can effect the performance of that entire array. With micro inverters, each solar panel works independently. With a String inverter - if it ever did have a problem, it would be really easy to change it out since it is on the ground

A good compromise is an "optimizer" which are similar to micro inverters. They get mounted on the roof but you still have a string inverter by your panel.

In S Cal, it seems that a real common system will use higher output panels (320 watt range) that you don't normally don't use with micro inverters because they cant handle that wattage.

There are more than one way to skin a cat - but ask about SolarEdge Optimizers with a string inverter just to see what other options would be for you

-Brent- · Aug 16, 2016

Wow, a $300/month electric bill would have me looking at ways to reduce that cost, too. What do you do to generate such a bill?

tyme2par4 · Aug 16, 2016

Kaizen said:
I'm in nh. Mass gives so much along with Feds comes to half off if I remember. When I looked into it there wasn't much help which is why the companies leasing roof space is most of what people are doing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm also in NH, and we certainly do have incentives. We have a $.50/watt rebate up to $2500, plus many towns have property tax exemptions (don't pay tax on increased property value). Federal rebate is another 30% (no limit).

It's not as much as Mass, but still pretty reasonable.

Leasing is popular because there's a few big name companies pushing it. You really don't save much doing a lease. If you can afford the upfront cost, that's by far the way to go.

I would also agree with Davefr. All the big name companies play with the numbers to make it look good. For instance, they estimate and average 10% increase every year on electricity prices. My rates have only gone up about 2% per year, so right there they are jerking you around.

texas123 · Aug 16, 2016

-Brent- said:
Wow, a $300/month electric bill would have me looking at ways to reduce that cost, too. What do you do to generate such a bill?

Big homes in Texas & 100* temps. $300 is very common down here in the summer. It's typically a 25 year roi without subsidies. I looked at a solar panel community near Houston, TX. After doing the math & realizing it didn't make sense, the salesman told me he had only 1 person opt for it. The rest of the homes were specked with them installed.

minytrker · Aug 16, 2016

Kaizen said:
I would do some serious research on the reduction of power over the years because that is the only thing that would make this financially above line

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They guarantee power output for 25 years, if it ever makes less they pay you the difference.

-Brent- said:
Wow, a $300/month electric bill would have me looking at ways to reduce that cost, too. What do you do to generate such a bill?

Thats just my average over the year, during the summer months its $400+ and this month it looks like it might hit $500. 4,000sq ft house with wife and little kids home all day so lights, tv , air conditioners never get a break.

Fixin'Stuff · Aug 16, 2016

minytrker said:
They guarantee power output for 25 years, if it ever makes less they pay you the difference.

How long have "they" been in business? Do you feel secure in them really being around for 25 more years to honor the warranty?

Zeke · Aug 16, 2016

300/mo is nothing here in the summer in an average under 2000 sq ft home. I imagine that most POCO's have a graduating scale as they do here based on your past usage. If you weren't a big user and installed central A/C, you get fucked bit time here.

I think a smaller solar set up would take the edge off by keeping the usage in Tier 1 and maybe a little Tier 2. Get into Tier 3 here and it's $0.30 a kWh.

Fixin'Stuff said:
How long have "they" been in business? Do you feel secure in them really being around for 25 more years to honor the warranty?

Really doesn't matter if the deal is secured with a bond. Look for that.

tyme2par4 · Aug 16, 2016

Fixin'Stuff said:
How long have "they" been in business? Do you feel secure in them really being around for 25 more years to honor the warranty?

LG holds the warranty and is a multi billion dollar global corporation. I don't expect them to go anywhere.

Zeke · Aug 16, 2016

rockwithjason said:
Power companies in the west have declared war on residential solar. The net metering rules were changed in nevada so that the rates killed the rooftop installs. You may have a decent rate today but tomorrow is not guaranteed

That is some interesting info, Jason. While the POCO's play the altruistic role of begging to save energy and trying to make sure everyone gets power every day, they can't shoot themselves in the foot by killing the goose that lays a golden egg every year.

Zeke · Aug 16, 2016

tyme2par4 said:
LG holds the warranty and is a multi billion dollar global corporation. I don't expect them to go anywhere.

Yes, that part is covered. What about the 'deal' where the solar company promises to "pay the difference?" LG won't stand party to any deals.

Kaizen · Aug 16, 2016

tyme2par4 said:
I'm also in NH, and we certainly do have incentives. We have a $.50/watt rebate up to $2500, plus many towns have property tax exemptions (don't pay tax on increased property value). Federal rebate is another 30% (no limit).

It's not as much as Mass, but still pretty reasonable.

Leasing is popular because there's a few big name companies pushing it. You really don't save much doing a lease. If you can afford the upfront cost, that's by far the way to go.

I would also agree with Davefr. All the big name companies play with the numbers to make it look good. For instance, they estimate and average 10% increase every year on electricity prices. My rates have only gone up about 2% per year, so right there they are jerking you around.

2500 off a 30k system isn't very much. My bill is 100-130 a month. Hopefully prices will keep dropping. Just not enough to make me do it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

manwithtools · Aug 16, 2016

You need to be VERY conservative in calculating the pay back period. The panels output does not diminish that much over time - the least of your worries IMHO.

I've done the ROI calculations on 15 Mw and up systems and installed more than few too. You really need incentives on a system to make this financially viable. Do ALL the research you can on your own - don't belive one word the company selling you tells you or the folks on the internet - me included. Do your own full blown research on this, I mean become an expert. Check out "pvwatts", a calculator that will tel you the real story - it requires careful and truthful inputs but should tell you more of what you need to know.

Short story is - home systems are not viable. 4 years ago we installed a 48 Kw system (68 K$) on top of our business building (flat roof - optimal exposure - not true on a residential installation typically) . With a 11 cents per Kw/hr premium we are still looking at a 7 year payback. That means we pay ~ 11 cents per Kw/hr and sell our power to TVA for ~ 22 cents per Kw/hr.

You need to know average solar exposure, hours / per day, efficiency of inverters, temperature de-ratings, ton's of other technical details. If you can't get this all in writing with a signed contract - including your electric companies 20 year rate and return guarantee, then walk away.

Git · Aug 16, 2016

manwithtools said:
...Short story is - home systems are not viable.

Where do you come up with stuff like this??? In S Cal, as Zeke pointed out, we have tiered electrical rates based on usage for the month. During the summer - we are into the highest tier after about 10 days - that means for the rest of the month, we are paying $.30 per kWh. With the 30% Federal Tax Rebate still available, a reasonable return would be about 7 or 8 years, depending on equipment, etc. After that - minimum of 10 to 15 years, its gravy

How much money you making on any money in the bank - 1%. Also, I am talking about purchasing (like the OP is) not leasing

manwithtools said:
You need to know average solar exposure, hours / per day, efficiency of inverters, temperature de-ratings, ton's of other technical details. If you can't get this all in writing with a signed contract - including your electric companies 20 year rate and return guarantee, then walk away.

You don't need to know any of that. As the OP stated in his original post, They have PRODUCTION GUARANTEES now. The contractor sells you a system and guarantees it will produce 'X' amount of kWh per year for usually a minimum of 10 years. If the system falls short - they either upgrade/fix your system so that it won't next year or the pay the shortage to the electrical company. Nothing in this life is guaranteed, but at some point you need to use some common sense

manwithtools · Aug 16, 2016

Git said:
How much money you making on any money in the bank - 1%. Also, I am talking about purchasing (like the OP is) not leasing

Okay, Southern California is the bench mark by your description. OP is in Texas, do you know the electrical utilities and their incentives in his area?

Let's hear the OP's numbers in writing. I'm making much more than 1% and I'm sure others are too. If you are tied to a 10 to 15 year return that's on you. As for the production guarantees - will that company be here in 15 years? I got my guarantee from TVA - signed contract - for my rate payment, not the system output. The output is on me. Thankfully it wasn't Elon Musk's signature.

I would not buy a solar installation based on a private company contract. The utilities drive the bus and can lobby the rate and incentives. I'd want my contract with the utility. I've already seen the rate incentives evaporate on the new contracts. I'm in and done with no need to argue the economical prospects. I'm just giving my cautionary advise.

Your mileage may vary.

minytrker · Aug 17, 2016

LG warranties the panels for 25 years along with Sunpro. The scary part is Sunpro says even if we go out of business LG will still be there. Why would a company use that as a selling point? Sunpro has only been around 8 years and only a couple years in Texas. The whole deal just sounds to good to be true IMO. I happen to live around and know alot of people who are millionaires and not one of them have solar. I asked Sunpro is solar was so great why dont any of these people have it, its obviously not a money issue? There reply was older people are harder to explain new technology to and are set in there ways often.

James-W · Aug 17, 2016

In my opinion, $63K invested wisely would pay a lot of electric bills.

Tunajoe · Aug 17, 2016

I just installed a 9.1 Kw ground mount system.
Solar world 285 panels, Enphase M250 micro inverters, GroundTrac mount system.
My electric bills were running around $450-$600/month Avg. 1500 KwH/month avg.
I had www.solarengineering.us draw up permit plans for about $275 and did it all myself.
I was in it less than $18000 total. I then am receiving a 30% Federal tax credit which puts me in my system for $12600. pays for it self in less than 3 years.
I found it ridiculously easy to install. Maybe a roof mount would be harder?
My last few bills have been under $12/month

Tunajoe · Aug 17, 2016

The OP's system, if he were to go out and purchase a similar system, should run under $30K if he were to do the work himself.
Pretty hefty markup if you ask me. 35K for less than 3 days work

nadogail · Aug 17, 2016

We have 23 (i think) panels on the roof. My outlay was $3000, yes three thousand, our combined gas an electric bill was $350 per month using year round averaging.

Our electric bill in now $125.33, flat rate for the next approximately 18 years. The gas bill is small, just hot water and clothes dryer.

I am loving it.

Crazyjake8493 · Aug 17, 2016

I would love solar, I'm all for energy-savings and going green. But the cost savings isn't there for me. My electric bill is only $50-60 over the summer and maybe $140 at most over the winter. And that's with an electric water heater.

Three of our neighbors got solar within the last two years. I'd been meaning to ask them about it, the price structure and so on. Just out of curiosity.

larry4406 · Aug 17, 2016

Tunajoe - grid tied with net metering? That is a pretty neat system you have. Would be cool to see a detailed post on your setup.

Tscott · Aug 17, 2016

I've looked into doing a ground mount system on our property and financially I can't justify it. A lot of the criteria will depend on how much you pay for power and the tax benefits your receive. When considering solar, there is a bit of a paradox involved. You can limit the size of your solar install, and therefore the cost by improving the house with energy saving modifications like LED lights, upgraded insulation and using energy efficient appliances etc.. The problem I found is that by doing all these improvements you also push back your system payback date because you've reduced the amount of energy you are using. So I would say make sure you look at what you could save by just upgrading the house a bit and see if it affects the numbers.

I think most people at this point have a hard time making a financial case for a solar system unless your state offers some serious rebates. Typically your just paying your power bill ahead of time in the form of the cost of the install.

I am still considering doing my own install with a battery backup but I'm hoping for a drastic improvement in technology in the next few years. Time will tell.

Tom

LS6 Tommy · Aug 17, 2016

I wouldn't consider any roof mounted system. Trouble waiting to happen.

Tommy

saewoody · Aug 17, 2016

To answer the original question: have it, love it, would recommend it if you get enough sun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anyone have solar?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

ALLIANCE MEMBER

Well-known member

ALLIANCE MEMBER

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member