Tubing down, concrete Wednesday.......

tdkkart · Apr 20, 2009

Been working all spring on the process of pouring the remaining 24x30' section of my pole building. First part was digging 2' deep trench all around to do the edge insulation, took longer than expected waiting for the ground to thaw.
Finally got all the edge insulation down, concrete guy was here last Thursday and did the grading. Spent Saturday and part of Sunday putting down the floor insulation and tubing.

The extra tube is a "just in case" I decide to use a floor thermostat.

Split the floor into 4 quadrants with a loop in each. Used 850' off of a 1000ft roll.

Left myself a 2ft square between the doors just for a potential future jib crane installation.

A couple lessons learned:
1. I thought it would be a good idea to snap chalk lines every foot across the insulation to use as a reference when laying the tubing. It served it's purpose I guess, but I looked like a blue Smurf after crawling around on the floor.

2. I'm not sure what the best solution would be for dealing with the roll of tubing. Don't let anyone tell you that you can just roll it out as you staple it down, not so easy with a 1000' roll, and it doesn't get easier as the roll gets smaller. I'm not sure the fancy un-coilers are the answer either especially if you're doing the spiral layout as we did. You still have to deal with untwisting
the tubing.

3.Definitely at least a 2 person job, 3 would be better, although she did a wonderful job running the stapler, my wife wasn't much other help.

BTW, anyone like to buy a stapler and leftover staples??
Got this one from Blue Ridge, and approx. 1-1/2 boxes of staples:
http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/275/reddi-strip-stapler-system-pex-tubing-to-foam
Stapler works great, only had a couple mis-fires when it was running low on staples.

Concrete is coming Wednesday morning, more pics later in the week............

walrus · Apr 20, 2009

Wish I was that far along, looks warm

no steel though, eh?

tdkkart · Apr 20, 2009

walrus said:
no steel though, eh?

Re-bar is coming Tuesday morning I beleive, so he can start pouring as soon as the truck can get there Wednesday.
Not that it's a big job, but these guys are semi-retired, the earlier in the day they start the earlier they have their casino boat money, and the earlier they can call it a day. Both the guys pouring are friends/neighbors from my old house.

The only ones around here that use wire in concrete are farmers that are too cheap to buy re-bar, but "got an old pile of fencin' out behind the barn."

I could have tied the tubing to wire mesh, but the stapler was way easier than tieing, and if I can get $100 out of it and the staples I'm ahead of the game anyway.

Anyone need a stapler??

walrus · Apr 20, 2009

I usually see the tubing on top of the steel, not sure in the end there's any difference though?? Be nice once its poured, won't it

hansen1 · Apr 21, 2009

Thanks for sharing your experience. I like the idea of the chalk lines. Maybe some cheap tape would work the same and be cleaner. I will have to think about that.

It looks like a 4" floor. How will the rebar be installed? Will you be using any risers?

I am not clear on how you will use the additional tube for future temp readings. Will you push a temp sender down the tube?

Did you pressure test the system? Do you plan on leaving the system pressurized during the pour?

I will be doing this in about a month. (Need to get the floor drains and bathroom drains installed first). I have been going back and forth on how to lay the PEX. I will be doing a 6" floor on top of 2" foam. I will be installing rebar on 24" centers as well.

I see my options are:

Option 1 - Install the foam board, then staple the PEX to the foam, then install rebar.

Option 1.5 - Install as in option 1 but pull up the PEX and tie to the under side of the rebar. This will bring the heat closer to the surface.

Option 2 - Install the foam board, then the rebar, then install the PEX under the rebar. This will be a pain to fish the tubing under all of the rebar on 2' centers.

Option 3 - Install the foam board, then the rebar, then install the PEX on top of the rebar.

Option 3 would be the easiest but I am concerned they will hit the tubing when they saw cut the expansion joints. Option 1 puts the heat the furtherest from the room which would cause a delay in responsiveness.

I was planning on installing the PEX on 12" centers with approx 7 300' loops.

Anyone have an opinion or other experiences they are willing to share?

ScaldedDog · Apr 21, 2009

Option 2 is effectively impossible, unless you install the PEX, then the rebar, then pull the rebar up and tie it.

FWIW, I installed 2" foam, then laid 6" square mesh from Lowe's down and tied the PEX to that. Then came the rebar on 2' centers.

Where in Colorado are you?

Mark

tdkkart · Apr 21, 2009

Yes, approx. 4" floor. Not sure how much rebar he'll put in, I suspect it will be reasonable rather than an obscene amount. Like I said, I've see alot of floors done with nothing more than 6" woven wire that held up fine to large grain trucks and farm equipment, I don't have doors big enought to get anything that heavy in the building.

The floor 'stat sensors just get pushed down the tubing, most come 15-20ft long.

The tubing is pressurized as we speak, and will remain pressurized through the pour, although I seriously doubt that it's needed. The pex is some pretty tough stuff, and this pour is small enough that we won't have to wheelbarrow any of it, the truck can dump it directly in place. Walking directly on the tube is not going to hurt it unless you absolutely stomped on it.

As long as we're talking a 6" floor, I think the location of the pex in the floor will have very limited effect on how responsive the heat is. Remember, there is little to no "responsivness" to a slab heat system, no matter where the tubing is you still have to change the temp of the entire mass, which won't happen very fast no matter what. The only way to increase the speed of change is to lighten the load, ie: reduce the size of the mass, which then works both ways, takes less time to heat up, but also takes less time to lose temp also.
Put the tube in the bottom of the slab and forget it.

I looked at doing the wire mesh and tying the tube to that. I was going to have $110+tax in the mesh(18 panels x $6ea), plus about 300+ zip ties. The stapler cost me $179, plus staples, and it's ALOT easier to use than crawling around putting on 300 zip ties. As it was the wife followed me around with the stapler and poked in a staple every 2ft, while standing up, which she was much happier with than crawling around with zip ties.

If I can get $100 out of my stapler and the 300-ish staples I have left I'll be happy and ahead of the game. If nobody here steps up for the stapler I'll put it on Ebay and will get my money out of it.

Bigrhamr · Apr 21, 2009

I haven't done it yet but my plan in about 3 weeks is to put down one grid of rebar 2' on center then the pex, then another grid of rebar 2' on center offset 1' from the first which will give me a 12" on center grid with the pex sandwiched in between. My thought is that this will make it a little easier to be sure the pex is down far enough the saw cut control joints don't hit it.

I read somwewhere to put a sleeve over the pex anywhere it crosses a control joint. Has anybody here done that? How about a sleeve where it comes up out of the slab?

nate379 · Apr 21, 2009

My slab has rebar and mesh. The Pex is run on the board and the mesh over it. It's nice to know you can run ~5" down (6" slab) without worry.

tdkkart · Apr 21, 2009

Bigrhamr said:
I haven't done it yet but my plan in about 3 weeks is to put down one grid of rebar 2' on center then the pex, then another grid of rebar 2' on center offset 1' from the first which will give me a 12" on center grid with the pex sandwiched in between. My thought is that this will make it a little easier to be sure the pex is down far enough the saw cut control joints don't hit it.

I read somwewhere to put a sleeve over the pex anywhere it crosses a control joint. Has anybody here done that? How about a sleeve where it comes up out of the slab?

Leave the tube in the bottom of the slab and don't worry about either problem. The control joints ar enot cut more than about 1" deep, so cutting the tube with the saw is not an issue.
While I've seen the mention of the sleeves at the joints, I've never seen it done in practice and neither has my concrete guy, who's poured alot of slab heat jobs in this area.

The only place I've seen rebar on 1' spacing is in a floor that was poured on a 2nd floor deck in a factory, and it still cracked pretty badly, much worse than any on-grade slab I've seen. Most of the rebar I've seen was done on a minimum of 18-24" spacing.

I don't have alot of direct experience in any of this stuff, a few small jobs here and there, but I've looked at alot of construction projects and tend to be very observant of what's going on.

Bigrhamr · Apr 21, 2009

tdkkart,
I was wondering why you decided to put your edge insulation inside the posts instead of out next to the mud board? Is that so you don't have a break at the posts? I'm not being critical, just planning how to do mine and the other jobs I've looked at put it out along the mudboard.

6806goats · Apr 21, 2009

Looks good and will be interested how it turns out.

tdkkart · Apr 21, 2009

Bigrhamr said:
tdkkart,
I was wondering why you decided to put your edge insulation inside the posts instead of out next to the mud board? Is that so you don't have a break at the posts? I'm not being critical, just planning how to do mine and the other jobs I've looked at put it out along the mudboard.

I guess my idea was that since I was inside the building I would keep as much heat inside the building as possible. The posts will transfer heat if the concrete is against them. It's also much easier to do the concrete if you don't have to deal with the posts.
I consulted with the concrete guy about it, and even though he had only seen it done the way you mention, he decided it made sense to isolate the heat inside as much as posible.
The only breaks in the insulation are at the doors, which I don't sho in the pictures. I cut a notch in the top of the sheet at the walk in door to let some heat into the door threshold, and I also left the insulation about 3" below the roll-up door footings to allow some heat to them also.

Once I'm done with the floor inside I still have to do some digging outside, the previous owner did a 16x30 shop in the back of the building, insulated under the floor but poured the concrete right out to the mudboards with no insulation. These boards are mostly above grade outside, which means the edge of the slab is essentially exposed to the cold outside air. I intend to trench down and put 24" foam board down starting at the top of the mudboards.

walrus · Apr 21, 2009

Bigrhamr said:
? How about a sleeve where it comes up out of the slab?

Most slabs I've seen use a PVC electrical sweep to to bring the tubing out of the floor

5wndwcpe · Apr 21, 2009

Amen on the Poppa Smurf deal. I tried the same thing and had the same results. Ultimately, I used masons line and roofing nails for the layout.

ScaldedDog · Apr 22, 2009

walrus said:
Most slabs I've seen use a PVC electrical sweep to to bring the tubing out of the floor

That's exactly what I used. Also, for the tubes that started in the garage went out to the snowmelt system in the driveway - crossing an expansion joint in the process, I pushed them to the bottom of a cutout area that made for 8" of concrete on top of them, and wrapped them in pipe insulation. If the slabs move a little with respect to each other, the pipe insulation should absorb the difference and keep the PEX from shearing. That's the idea, anyway.

Mark

hansen1 · Apr 22, 2009

ScaldedDog (Mark) - I am just south of Castle Rock. I will have the same issue (going from the garage to the driver) for my two snow melt loops.

There are a ton of opinions and options when it comes to concrete.

Morris

tdkkart · Apr 22, 2009

Well folks, the only update I can give is that the concrete has been delayed till Friday

. Oh well, that's what I get when working with these semi-retired folks, they're just awful busy

.

Actually, the weather is supposed to be a bit warmer on Friday, which means we won't be sitting around watching concrete set up so long before finishing. No worries, it'll get done right.

Worst part is it's gonna cost me money, I promised SWMBO that if we did it on Friday I'd take the nite off from work, which means I'll not only lose wages but I'll probably have to take her out to eat besides.
But, it's supposed to be 82 Friday, will make for a nice evening for a motorcycle ride.

Updates over the weekend......

nate379 · Apr 22, 2009

82*! Holy ******** ****!

We are in a heat wave here and it hit 53* today. I was sweating my *** off in a T Shirt cutting firewood.

Bigrhamr · Apr 22, 2009

Ah damnit! I was looking forward to some more in progress pics and then the finished product but I guess if you can wait a few more days I can too :thumbup:

tdkkart · Apr 26, 2009

It's done!!!

First of the mud hit the ground at 7:40am Friday, truck was gone within an hour and 15 minutes, and then came the long wait on a hot humid day for the finishing to be done. Once you put down insulation and vapor barrier concrete does not dry very quickly because all the water has to come out the top. Final power troweling finished up at 4pm.

Concrete guys and driver, have been working together for 30+ years.

Started re-populating today, only the light stuff, will wait for vehicles till next weekend.

The stairs crank up against the trusses with the boat winch mounted over there in the corner. BTW, ended up with 11'5" to the bottom of the trusses.

Total cost:
28 sheets(7 sheets perimeter, 21 under floor) 2" pink foam@ $22.50 = $630
Vapor barrier $45
850' 1/2" PEX @ $.28/ft = $238
300 Pex staples $34
Subtotal = $947

Grading,rebar, 9yds 4000psi concrete,labor $1771(w/friends and neighbors discount??)

Total $2718

walrus · Apr 26, 2009

nice, looks great and congrats

tdkkart · Apr 26, 2009

You won't believe it, not 10 minutes after I posted the above the whole damn works nearly blew away. Had a tornado went right through our development.
Classic deal, heard a tornado report on the scanner, went outside to have a look. Nothing dramatic happening except that there was this noise like wind, but the trees weren't moving. The noise got louder and louder, I hustle my **** in and said, "let's go!!"

Wife and I headed to the basement, she had her purse full of our important stuff in one hand and the dog in the other. We went in the canned goods room, were only in there a few seconds when my ears popped, there was a WHOOSH, and it was all over, came back out.

Here's a link to some pics we took:
http://www.tdkmotorsports.com/tornado/tornado.html

And a link to a pic of the tornado. If you look just under the eave of the house you'll see a tower. That tower is just 1/4 mile southwest of our house.
http://www.kcrg.com/younews/43749777.html?img=1&mg=t

Damn good thing I poured the concrete, may have saved the shop from being sucked out of the ground.

zeebad1 · Apr 26, 2009

That looks nice!! I bet you're glad to have that done.

I sure wish you had done it a month ago, because that's when I bought a stapler too.
Mine is still unused, sitting in the garage. I might be interested in your extra staples, if you still have them.

How close did you space the staples? Did they hold the tubing in place sufficiently?

Are you willing to come to Northwestern IL., and give lessons?

I had this typed up before I previewed, and just saw your recent post.
You are very lucky!!

Looks like there's still a bunch of nasty weather, and it's headed our way.

JohnK007 · Apr 26, 2009

Glad to hear you and the family are OK and the damage is relatively light compared to what it could have been!!

Bigrhamr · Apr 26, 2009

Looks great, glad you're still there to enjoy it.

Are those control joints sawcut or troweld in?

walrus · Apr 27, 2009

Wow
Thats alittle to close for comfort. Still quite a pit of damage to your stuff even still it was a lucky day

hansen1 · Apr 29, 2009

I will be doing laying down my pex in the next couple of weeks. I would be interested in the stapler and staples if you still have them available.

PM if you still have the equipment.

thanks,

tdkkart · Apr 29, 2009

PM sent, thanks.

I meant to post the stapler for sale, in fact took pics of it Sunday afternoon, and then all hell broke loose so it became less of a priority.

We're progressing on the cleanup, had the insurance folks and the contractor that originally built the pole building at the house already. The pisser is all the tree cleanup that needs done, which appears to be my summer hobby this year.

Iron-Iceberg · Apr 30, 2009

Dang man, glad you and yours are allright. Thats a close one.

Tubing down, concrete Wednesday.......

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