Power Steering flush, good reason???

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

Daughter, who's off to college, called the other nite, her significant other had been in to have his oil changed and the place tried to talk him into a "Power Steering Flush" to the tune of $69.95. They were wondering if it was something he needed, or if it was a just another way to bleed his already thin college student wallet??

So, can anyone give me a good solid reason that a modern power steering would need to be flushed, other than the fact that the shop may have just purchased a $4000 power steering flusher??

The way I see it, a power steering system is essentially sealed, other than maybe a vent, so very little if any moisture enters the system and very little dirty air is passing through. No hydrocarbon fuels are being burnt so that rules out those contaminants. Under normal conditions the system sees very little significant heat to break down the oil. So all those reasons are out.
Other than small amounts of trash as the result of wear of the components, I don't see too many contaminants getting into the system??

So what's the point??

What say the rest of you??

bchee · Apr 23, 2009

I'm interested to know too. I've never done it on any of my cars.

krusty the clown · Apr 23, 2009

like any other fluid PS fluid will break down. ford's seem to have this issue more than others. as far as whether he needs it i can't say.

Scotto · Apr 23, 2009

What year is the car?

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

Scotto said:
What year is the car?

If I remember right, it's an '05 or '06 Chebby Cavalier.

Wardster · Apr 23, 2009

When my truck rolled over to 100K miles, I changed all of the fluid up front (power steering, brake, and coolant). Like anything else, the fluid breaks down and needs replaced. Whether the "significant other's" fluid required flushing would most likely be tied to the number of miles on the Calavier. The other obvious question is why just the power steering flush?.....and, did he get it done?

Scotto · Apr 23, 2009

tdkkart said:
If I remember right, it's an '05 or '06 Chebby Cavalier.

That's pretty absurd then IMO. Brake fluid MAYBE, but not p/s fluid. I've never seen a recommended interval from the manufacturer to change it.

Keep · Apr 23, 2009

Only time I ever change my PS fluid is when it starts smelling burnt and that is only once in the life of my truck a year after I put on the 33 mud tires. There is no way a 05 should need a PS fluid change.

Keep · Apr 23, 2009

I am curious just how they would do this as well. Only way to get out all the fluid is yank everything off of the car and drain/refill. Unless they start pulling hoses and running the fluid through an exchanger....

kbs2244 · Apr 23, 2009

It is a hydraulic system that is just pumping the fluid around with no load on the system until you make a turn.

If you think about how much time you spend turning compared to the amount of time you are going straight, you can see it is a pretty low use system.

I have seen 300 and 400 K cars with nothing done to them except an occasional top off due to loss from weeping.

yogitech · Apr 23, 2009

Its ran through an exchanger... The main reason I would recomend it to be flushed is if theres a component failure that would cause contamination in the fluid. Another reason would be if the fluid appeares to be aerrated. Remeber that Power steering is just ****** fluid for the most part and like all fluids it will break down over time.

Mark

GeorgiaHybrid · Apr 23, 2009

Unless something has happened to the system (pump, rack or hose failure) I have never done this to my cars. I do change brake fluid, ****** and diff oil but never the PS fluid.

Bo Heck · Apr 23, 2009

there is absolutely no reason for that type of maintenance, rip off. Wait another 5 or 10 years when the pump goes out itself, then use that as an excuse to change the fluid

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

Unless there is some problem in the system there is really no reason for the PS fluid to even break down over the life of a vehicle. The fluid does not get hot enough in normal use. PS fluid does get hot enough to drive off any moisture in it. However if the system is leaking and fluid needs to be added, which out of the bottle is very dirty fluid, then a filter needs to be added to the return line along with repairs made to stop the leak.

I know most of you won't believe the fluid out of the bottle is dirty but then few of you, if any, have ever done an oil analysis of automotive fluids like PS and motor oil right out of the bottle like I have. The amount of **** in a new bottle of oil or PS fluid is amazing. You may not be able to see the particles with a naked eye but they are there by the thousands. It is those invisible 10-40 micron particles that do the wear and damage. Just opening a single power steering hose connection to connect to a transmission/PS flush machine releases 10,000 damaging particles into the PS system. Without a permanent filter these particles stay in the system and multiply with every pass thru the pump.

Whenever the PS system is opened for repair like to replace a seal or hose you should add a filter to the return line. Use the filter below:

Wix transmission/PS filter #58964
200 psi working, pressure relieved, magnetic
change yearly or 12000 miles
Ford equivalent filter kit #XC3Z-7B155-AA
filter alone #XC3P-7B155-BA

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

Torque1st said:
Just opening a single power steering hose connection to connect to a transmission/PS flush machine releases 10,000 damaging particles into the PS system.

AH-HA!!!
See, you're saying that just opening the system to do the flush probably adds more contaminants than is already there.
I'd have to bet they open the lines to connect to the magic flushing machine, and then have to reconnect them after flushing, probably sluffing more particles into the system.
In the end they've done more harm than good, unless of course they never actually hooked up the machine to begin with??

I honestly cannot remeber the last time I had to add fluid to a power steering system, except a couple years ago when I had to remove a reservior to do a head gasket job.

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

tdkkart said:
AH-HA!!!
See, you're saying that just opening the system to do the flush probably adds more contaminants than is already there.
I'd have to bet they open the lines to connect to the magic flushing machine, and then have to reconnect them after flushing, probably sluffing more particles into the system.
In the end they've done more harm than good, unless of course they never actually hooked up the machine to begin with??

I honestly cannot remeber the last time I had to add fluid to a power steering system, except a couple years ago when I had to remove a reservior to do a head gasket job.

You got it now! :beer:

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

yogitech said:
The main reason I would recomend it to be flushed is if theres a component failure that would cause contamination in the fluid.
Mark

Which would be throwing good money after bad in my mind. If the system is failing, fix it, don't through $70 at it as a stop-gap.

Yes, power steering fluid is ATF in most cases, with a couple critical differences. #1 the steering system never sees the temps that an auto trans sees. #2 an auto trans by design sheds contaminants into the system, and it has a filter to capture those contaminants.

Gary S · Apr 23, 2009

First of all, I don't own anything with rack and pinion steering so I can't comment on what they might need.
My non-rack-and-pinion vehicles get a power steering oil change at least once in their lives, not because the power steering fluid is worn out, but because power steering fluid turns to a thick sludge in extremely cold weather and causes power steering hose failures. I dump out the factory stuff and replace it with Amsoil ATF which does not thicken at low temperatures so the hydraulic hoses don't fail.

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

BTW, I have noticed the sludge in the bottom of oil containers before, and have heard others than have noticed that some brands are noticeably worse than others.

Anybody ever notice the sludge that collects in the bottom of litre soda bottles??

Mike83 · Apr 23, 2009

He would spend less money on a turkey baster and emptying and refilling the reservoir every day for a week to get most of the fluid changed out.

Or he could disconnect the return line from the pump and have someone turn the wheel back and forth while he kept adding more fluid until it runs out clear..

That is if the fluid is even bad. If it is pretty clear then leave it. If it is black, though, I'd change it out.

When my system was leaky I was filling every week, so the fluid was always nice and clean!

rsanter · Apr 23, 2009

there is good reason to completly flush the system when you have to swap out a power steering pump. and I would say you want to do the same if you had to change the rack

bob

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

Mike83 said:
He would spend less money on a turkey baster and emptying and refilling the reservoir every day for a week to get most of the fluid changed out.

Or he could disconnect the return line from the pump and have someone turn the wheel back and forth while he kept adding more fluid until it runs out clear..

These would be the things that "I" would do if I thought my system needed flushing for some reason, however........

This kid, bless his soul, is a good kid , including being willing to work 24-7 if that's what it takes to get what he wants.
BUT, if he ever attempted to do anything under the hood and actually found the component he was looking for it would probably be because my daughter was helping him. Poor kid deosn't know a powersteering pump from a spare tire.

Mike83 · Apr 23, 2009

tdkkart said:
These would be the things that "I" would do if I thought my system needed flushing for some reason, however........

This kid, bless his soul, is a good kid , including being willing to work 24-7 if that's what it takes to get what he wants.
BUT, if he ever attempted to do anything under the hood and actually found the component he was looking for it would probably be because my daughter was helping him. Poor kid deosn't know a powersteering pump from a spare tire.

Good chance for him to learn!

I suppose this was hinted at in your OP saying he had the car in for an oil change.

nate379 · Apr 23, 2009

You'd be surprisde at the folks that just don't know. I worked at Sears for a while and did a few air filter changes. That was it... car came in for just that.

And it often the easy ones too. Could have done in the parking lot in 20 seconds.

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

Mike83 said:
-snip-
When my system was leaky I was filling every week, so the fluid was always nice and clean!

You just thought it was clean...

Tarheelgarage · Apr 23, 2009

High mileage R&Ps could benefit from a flush as they age. I do the poor mans flush (remove return hose) after replacing PS pumps and R&Ps.

Mike83 · Apr 23, 2009

Torque1st said:
You just thought it was clean...

I swear you sell power steering filters

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

Tarheelgarage said:
High mileage R&Ps could benefit from a flush as they age. I do the poor mans flush (remove return hose) after replacing PS pumps and R&Ps.

Just make sure you add that return line filter anytime PS system maintenance is performed.

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

Mike83 said:
I swear you sell power steering filters

Not hardly. Filters are just cheap insurance even tho these filters run $15-20 depending on where you get them.

Tarheelgarage · Apr 23, 2009

Torque1st said:
Not hardly. Filters are just cheap insurance even tho these filters run $15-20 depending on where you get them.

I'm a firm believer of using those filters after a ****** R&R.
:thumbup:

Torque1st · Apr 23, 2009

Tarheelgarage said:
I'm a firm believer of using those filters after a ****** R&R.

Some rebuilders require them and others figure they will not get serviced so they do not recommend them. The filter mentioned has a bypass so when it fills up it does not block the flow.

Most people here and on other boards are totally clueless about the contamination issues due to service procedures. I have seen guys in shops and at home do things that just make me cringe. They get away with it because nobody connects that PS pump failure or noise with the service performed a year or so ago. Some of the guys that do know better in the shops just figure it is good for return business. I am sure the scam artists selling PS system flushes have just figured out a way to make more money off that transmission flush machine.

ddawg16 · Apr 23, 2009

I drive a Jeep....one weekend on the trail puts more stress on the system than a year in a normal car......I have yet to 'flush' the system.......as noted above, as long as it does not smell burnt, it's fine.

A power steering flush is about as necessary as airing down your tires and putting in fresh air.....

Speaking of tires.....stay away the "Nitrogen" air up as well....it is a scam....
78% of the air we breath is nitrogen....there is NO advantage to airing up your tires with N2....except maybe that you know it has NO moisture....but if you have a good dryer on your compressor....then you are fine.

5wndwcpe · Apr 23, 2009

I guess the guys that recommend against flushing the system don't have a hydro boost.

snyder · Apr 23, 2009

I take a turkey baster with a hose on the end and **** out as much p/s fluid as it can reach, and refill at every oil change. I do this while I wait for the engine oil to finish draining..

fireman · Apr 23, 2009

Pure and absolute B.S. I've never seen a P.S. system with burnt fluid. Unlike transmissions, a P.S. system doesn't have friction bands that can cause the fluid to burn. It's just another way to screw someone out their money. I'm surprised they didn't want to charge $25 to change the air in the tires because we all know that it gets stale and needs to be changed regularly.

Jim

tdkkart · Apr 23, 2009

fireman said:
I'm surprised they didn't want to charge $25 to change the air in the tires because we all know that it gets stale and needs to be changed regularly.Jim

I've actually heard of shops convincing people that they need to change over to "winter" air each fall, You see, the summer air is full of humidity and leaving it in there during cold weather will cause the moisture to freeze and crack the tires.

There was a big push for nitrogen in tires around here awhile back, even a couple newspaper articles full of utter BS.

SteveU · Apr 23, 2009

snyder said:
I take a turkey baster with a hose on the end and **** out as much p/s fluid as it can reach, and refill at every oil change. I do this while I wait for the engine oil to finish draining..

I also took the old fluid out with a battery bulb & replaced it with synthetic, did this 4 times, once every 10 days or so until it is almost all synthetic. It still looks good when I check it so won't do it again for a while. I believe the synthetic helps when the temp goes below 0*F though if you live somewhere warmer this probably isn't an issue.

e-tek · Apr 23, 2009

I call TOTAL BS on a PS Systme Flush and "mostly" BS on an engine oil flush - (there are circumstances)! I have cars older than me that have never had their PS fluid changed!

robertearl · Apr 23, 2009

The power steering fluid WILL break down over time and absorb water, just like you brake fluid does. When this happens, if the fluid gets hot, it will have a lower boiling point and will boil. This will release gas and cause the system to jerk.

On the track at MSR in the vette it happened to me. The wheel jerked so much that in a turn to the left, it actually almost straightened out the wheel.
Scared the hell out of me. Changed the fluid out and the problem went away.

Now after saying that, a 2005 car that is only driven on the street would never see the heat in the system that you will induce at the track. They were just trying to sell something. But just don't say that you never need to change the fluid as that is just wrong. It depends on the environment the car is used in.

The big one most people just ignore is brake fluid. If you take the top off of the master cylinder and the fluid is not clear, it is past time to change it out. Your brake system can generate much more heat from repetitive braking than you will ever see in the PS system and if it boils, you now have air in the lines. Spongy breaks are no fun if you need them in a hurry.

SteveU · Apr 23, 2009

robertearl said:
The power steering fluid WILL break down over time and absorb water, just like you brake fluid does. When this happens, if the fluid gets hot, it will have a lower boiling point and will boil. This will release gas and cause the system to jerk.

The big one most people just ignore is brake fluid. If you take the top off of the master cylinder and the fluid is not clear, it is past time to change it out. Your brake system can generate much more heat from repetitive braking than you will ever see in the PS system and if it boils, you now have air in the lines. Spongy breaks are no fun if you need them in a hurry.

Every couple years it is a good idea to turkey baster out the fluid in the master cyl then refill with new & go around to bleed all 4 wheels until new fluid comes out for a complete fluid exchange. With a Motive pressure bleeder this is less than a 15 min job & results in a nice firm pedal. :thumbup:

Power Steering flush, good reason???

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