Ratcheting wrench experts - best guess on OEM

Ign · Dec 14, 2016

Anyone know who makes the Paramount reversibles from MSC? If you're good at identifying the various ratcheting wrenches I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at these stubby reversibles:
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/62492178?rItem=62492178

I asked MSC, they played dumb and said they don't know and said COO is listed as Taiwan and Prov. of China. Not real illuminating.

If nothing else I'd like to know if they're Gearwrench/Not Gearwrench

oh I found a thread on the dark side but no actual answers

popparoach · Dec 14, 2016

pic to try and help.

dnschmidt · Dec 14, 2016

No idea but why not buy Gearwrench cheaper. If you're going to buy ratcheting wrenches why not go with the company that invented them? I always buy Milwaukee Sawsalls.

shockwave · Dec 14, 2016

That open end does not look like gearwrench most are Kabo Taiwan and gearwrench now china

LXCam · Dec 14, 2016

shockwave said:
That open end does not look like gearwrench most are Kabo Taiwan and gearwrench now china

Not that this helps. But the open end looks identical to the sets of stubbies I bought from Northern Tool a couple years back. Now I wonder who make those for them?.

Ign · Dec 14, 2016

So it looks like Gearwrench doesn't make stubby reversibles, so that's not what they are (phew!). At least I couldn't find any via web search and their website is odd to navigate but didn't find any there.

They kinda look like Stanley Proto but the reversing lever is wrong.

They also look a bit like Facoms on the reversing lever but the body is wrong (no depression).

There's only a handful of companies selling reversible stubbies. The plot thickens....

gdocktor3 · Dec 14, 2016

dnschmidt said:
If you're going to buy ratcheting wrenches why not go with the company that invented them? .

Gearwrench did not invent the ratchet wrench. They've been around way longer than Gearwrench. According to this patent, it's been around since 1913. https://www.google.com/patents/US1072980#v=onepage&q&f=false

1950mercury · Dec 14, 2016

That switching lever looks like the DeWalt ratcheting wrenches. I've never seen stubby DeWalts though

Maybe same as Blackhawk

kythri · Dec 14, 2016

gdocktor3 said:
Gearwrench did not invent the ratchet wrench. They've been around way longer than Gearwrench. According to this patent, it's been around since 1913. https://www.google.com/patents/US1072980#v=onepage&q&f=false

Didn't GearWrench invent this style of ratcheting wrench, however?

WWheeler · Dec 14, 2016

kythri said:
Didn't GearWrench invent this style of ratcheting wrench, however?

There are lots of patents for various styles of ratcheting wrenches going back well over 100 years. A lot of the time someone will bring up Robert Owen's 1913 patent but there were others previous to it. There's a J.J. Richardson that had a patent for one in 1863.

Who was the first to actually bring them to market is another question. Ford had ratcheting wrenches for the transmission bands on Model Ts in the early 1900s, and then who hasn't seen these that were widely available in the 1950s/1960s (?) under various brands:

All that said, the style that we think of today as a 'ratcheting wrench' was introduced by K-D as the gearwrench in the early 1990s. Did they 'invent' them. Probably not. The ratcheting wrench has been a slow evolution for a looong time now.

speedfreek1210 · Dec 14, 2016

popparoach said:
pic to try and help.

Looks like the blackhawks we have at work

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

speedfreek1210 said:
Looks like the blackhawks we have at work

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yeah.........again, the reversing lever is wrong and the open end is more "V" on the Paramounts

Fedwrench · Dec 15, 2016

We've established that they're not Gearwrench. They're probably not Stanley (Blackhawk) either. I don't think they're Kabo made as there's no sealed brass screw on the ratcheting boxed end.

So who's left? The high 5 reverse gear folks? :dunno:

On a side note, has anyone used Paramount tools from MSC?

woody 73 · Dec 15, 2016

Not much to go on:

http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/p...nds-paramount-professional-line-of-hand-tools

woody 73 · Dec 15, 2016

Again not much info:

http://www.trademarkia.com/paramount-77859655.html

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

Fedwrench said:
We've established that they're not Gearwrench. They're probably not Stanley (Blackhawk) either. I don't think they're Kabo made as there's no sealed brass screw on the ratcheting boxed end.

So who's left? The high 5 reverse gear folks?

On a side note, has anyone used Paramount tools from MSC?

Only their ball end hex keys, which were stamped Made in U.S. But there's at least a couple companies doing that, so those are easily contracted out and re-badged.

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

woody 73 said:
Not much to go on:

http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/p...nds-paramount-professional-line-of-hand-tools

Yeah, I did find that during my initial searching too..........but as you said, no help. Reads more like a press release. I didn't see the trademarkia one previously though.

Anyway, I ordered both SAE and metric. Right now they're $60 for the 9 pc fractional set and $90 for the 13pc metric set. So $150 for both. SHIPS gets you free (2-day) shipping from MSC thru the 18th I believe.

Locally a guy listed the Blue Points (Williams I assume) in fractional for $100. Appears retail is $170 so I woulda offered him about half or $80 give or take. Thing is the Blue Points are an 8 pc set, excluding 1/4". I really like the sets that go as small as possible. Likewise the metric with Paramounts drops to 6mm

Bottom line, I decided new import was a better value for me than used tool truck brand. And the sale prices on these Paramounts strike me as very reasonable if they're Taiwan.

Oh ZP62492178 = 9 pc fractional $59.99
ZP62492152 = 13 pc metric $89.99

(it's the ZP prefix that gets you the "sale" prices - and they gotta be caps or the cart's too dumb to recognize the part number)

T45 · Dec 15, 2016

I'd risk the return shippping and just buy them if you think they suit your needs. None of the better stubby (generic term) gearwrenches are terribly cheap. Better to have them in hand to make a final decision.

DSLTRK · Dec 15, 2016

Ign said:
Yeah, I did find that during my initial searching too..........but as you said, no help. Reads more like a press release. I didn't see the trademarkia one previously though.

Anyway, I ordered both SAE and metric. Right now they're $60 for the 9 pc fractional set and $90 for the 13pc metric set. So $150 for both. SHIPS gets you free (2-day) shipping from MSC thru the 18th I believe.

Locally a guy listed the Blue Points (Williams I assume) in fractional for $100. Appears retail is $170 so I woulda offered him about half or $80 give or take. Thing is the Blue Points are an 8 pc set, excluding 1/4". I really like the sets that go as small as possible. Likewise the metric with Paramounts drops to 6mm

Bottom line, I decided new import was a better value for me than used tool truck brand. And the sale prices on these Paramounts strike me as very reasonable if they're Taiwan.

Oh ZP62492178 = 9 pc fractional $59.99
ZP62492152 = 13 pc metric $89.99

(it's the ZP prefix that gets you the "sale" prices - and they gotta be caps or the cart's too dumb to recognize the part number)

That's a good price.

These wrenches are the exact same Taiwan OEM that makes Proto, Blackhawk, Dewalt, OEMTools, Duralast, and many other brands. Very good quality.

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

DSLTRK said:
That's a good price.

These wrenches are the exact same Taiwan OEM that makes Proto, Blackhawk, Dewalt, OEMTools, Duralast, and many other brands. Very good quality.

So you know we're gonna ask how you know that. I'm not challenging you, just curious. You gotta give more details.

DSLTRK · Dec 15, 2016

Ign said:
So you know we're gonna ask how you know that. I'm not challenging you, just curious. You gotta give more details.

Because I've handled every brand listed. This Taiwanese company only changes the reverse lever casting design and embossing per the contractee's request. Dimensionally and internally, the wrenches are the exact same.

I wish I knew the company in Taiwan that forged these, but I currently do not. It could be a subsidary of Stanley Tools for all I know, as it seems they made the most tools for Stanley, Husky(back when Stanley owned them), Proto and Blackhawk.

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

So again not being argumentative did you see how the open end differs on the Paramounts? It's got a slight V throat - Sunex has a name for this but it escapes me, although their open ends are deeply V'd. This would seem to be a dimensional difference, no?

WWheeler · Dec 15, 2016

I'm not seeing any differences in the open ends between the Paramounts and the Blackhawks. Not sure what you mean by the 'V' though. They look the same to me.

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

WWheeler said:
I'm not seeing any differences in the open ends between the Paramounts and the Blackhawks. Not sure what you mean by the 'V' though. They look the same to me.

Fingers denote the differences. This example is more exaggerated for the sake of demonstration. And of course not the wrenches in question, merely an example (this happens to be a MAC left and S-K right, non-ratcheting, basic wrenches I grabbed out of my box)

WWheeler · Dec 15, 2016

I'm still not seeing a difference. It's hard to tell exactly as the Paramount wrench pictured in the OP is tilted back at an angle and the set of Blackhawks you posted are straight on, but the head shape and the inside curve (where there is a V on that MAC) on the 19mm Paramount looks exactly the same to me as the larger wrenches in that SAE Blackhawk set you posted. For whatever reason in your pic the smaller size SAE wrenches on the left do look to have slightly less of a curve, but it's hard to tell. The larger ones on the right in a comparable size to that 19mm look just the same though to my eyes.

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

I'll have my hands on the Paramounts Monday (unless holiday shipping slows them down) and we shall see! That said, I don't have any Blackhawks to compare.

edit: oh and I was mistaken, the free shipping thru MSC ends tomorrow 12/16. You can't select their Next Day Air Saver for free shipping promos so I elected for 2 day as I'm in no rush. Otherwise next day woulda been $11.60 - reasonable

DSLTRK · Dec 15, 2016

WWheeler said:
I'm still not seeing a difference. It's hard to tell exactly as the Paramount wrench pictured in the OP is tilted back at an angle and the set of Blackhawks you posted are straight on, but the head shape and the inside curve (where there is a V on that MAC) on the 19mm Paramount looks exactly the same to me as the larger wrenches in that SAE Blackhawk set you posted. For whatever reason in your pic the smaller size SAE wrenches on the left do look to have slightly less of a curve, but it's hard to tell. The larger ones on the right in a comparable size to that 19mm look just the same though to my eyes.

Same here, I think it's the picture that makes it look like a V end. One other factor that points to the same Taiwan oem is the font for the wrench size. Exact same font used on Blackhawk/Proto.

T45 · Dec 15, 2016

Ign said:
So again not being argumentative did you see how the open end differs on the Paramounts? It's got a slight V throat - Sunex has a name for this but it escapes me, although their open ends are deeply V'd. This would seem to be a dimensional difference, no?

If you are gonna do a v shape, tho, unless its deep enough to seat a face on the hex it seems like a design flaw. the reason people moved away from the design is the curve prevents stress riser. so why have a stress riser when you don't (at least) get the anti-slip as a trade?

with that in mind, I'm wondering if a subtle v-shape may just be an optical illusion or some trivial comsmetic feature or artifact of production.

retDAC · Dec 15, 2016

Fedwrench said:
We've established that they're not Gearwrench. They're probably not Stanley (Blackhawk) either. I don't think they're Kabo made as there's no sealed brass screw on the ratcheting boxed end.

So who's left? The high 5 reverse gear folks? ...

DSLTRK said:
That's a good price.

These wrenches are the exact same Taiwan OEM that makes Proto, Blackhawk, Dewalt, OEMTools, Duralast, and many other brands. Very good quality.

Ign said:
So you know we're gonna ask how you know that. I'm not challenging you, just curious. You gotta give more details.

DSLTRK said:
Because I've handled every brand listed. This Taiwanese company only changes the reverse lever casting design and embossing per the contractee's request. Dimensionally and internally, the wrenches are the exact same.

I wish I knew the company in Taiwan that forged these, but I currently do not. It could be a subsidary of Stanley Tools for all I know, as it seems they made the most tools for Stanley, Husky(back when Stanley owned them), Proto and Blackhawk.

Most likely it is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five" and they do offer different styles of selectors: http://www.newtools.com/pd_02.htm

We have a member "reversegear", now long inactive, who posted about [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five[/FONT] and the extensive (and expensive) testing they did about 10 years ago before designing their own ratcheting wrenches. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five tested[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] virtually all ratcheting wrenches then on the market.
[/FONT]

T45 · Dec 15, 2016

here is another look at that jaw...

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

retDAC said:
Most likely it is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five" and they do offer different styles of selectors: http://www.newtools.com/pd_02.htm

We have a member "reversegear", now long inactive, who posted about [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five[/FONT] and the extensive (and expensive) testing they did about 10 years ago before designing their own ratcheting wrenches. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five tested[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] virtually all ratcheting wrenches then on the market.
[/FONT]

Interesting. The main page is fairly well done. All the contact info is Taiwan. Apparently not much of a domestic presence, at least not directly marketed

popparoach · Dec 15, 2016

retDAC said:
Most likely it is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five" and they do offer different styles of selectors: http://www.newtools.com/pd_02.htm

We have a member "reversegear", now long inactive, who posted about [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five[/FONT] and the extensive (and expensive) testing they did about 10 years ago before designing their own ratcheting wrenches. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five tested[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] virtually all ratcheting wrenches then on the market.
[/FONT]

looks about right.

DSLTRK · Dec 15, 2016

retDAC said:
Most likely it is "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five" and they do offer different styles of selectors: http://www.newtools.com/pd_02.htm

[/FONT]

Thank you. I've always wanted to know the OEM for these.

retDAC · Dec 15, 2016

Ign said:
Interesting. The main page is fairly well done. All the contact info is Taiwan. Apparently not much of a domestic presence, at least not directly marketed

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five doesn't market their tools directly in the US and maybe not anywhere else. [/FONT]They seem to sell to existing companies and put the buyer's brand on the tools. I have a Stanley branded bit driver wrench and it has "Reverse Gear" on the ratcheting end. The Bostitch Pass Thru set I have is certainly made by [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hi-Five and appears to be excellent quality (other Bostitch hand tools are a different story). [/FONT] The Vim bit driver ratchets are made by High Five also.

notlob · Dec 15, 2016

retDAC said:
Most likely it is "Hi-Five" and they do offer different styles of selectors: http://www.newtools.com/pd_02.htm

Interesting to note from the above website:

"The founder of HI-FIVE PRODUCTS DEVELOPING CO., Bobby Hu, has brought to bear more than 20 years experience in the R & D and engineering of hand tools. As the world's original designer of the Gear Wrench, Bobby has assembled a pioneering R & D team, backed by a world-class engineering department."

:pimpflash

retDAC · Dec 15, 2016

"... The Gearwrench brand was introduced by Danaher. The actual tool was invented by a guy named Bobby Hu, when he worked at Lea Way before they were bought by Danaher. ..."

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=314670&postcount=74

Ign · Dec 15, 2016

retDAC said:
"... The Gearwrench brand was introduced by Danaher. The actual tool was invented by a guy named Bobby Hu, when he worked at Lea Way before they were bought by Danaher. ..."

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=314670&postcount=74

dnschmidt said:
No idea but why not buy Gearwrench cheaper. If you're going to buy ratcheting wrenches why not go with the company that invented them? I always buy Milwaukee Sawsalls.

That's rich. So I guess dnschmidt better get rid of all his GW and only use Hi Five or Reverse Gear. :wtf:

retDAC · Dec 16, 2016

Ign said:
That's rich. So I guess dnschmidt better get rid of all his GW and only use Hi Five or Reverse Gear.

Elsewhere member reversegear stated that GearWrench ratcheting wrenches bought on sale were great for the DIYer. They're not bad; it's just that a pro using them hard every day in the rust belt would probably find certain other brands to be better, particularly in comparison to the GW wrenches made in China.

Danglerb · Dec 16, 2016

Nice detective work, maybe a few more details on the product packaging like patents.

Ign · Dec 16, 2016

retDAC said:
Elsewhere member reversegear stated that GearWrench ratcheting wrenches bought on sale were great for the DIYer. They're not bad; it's just that a pro using them hard every day in the rust belt would probably find certain other brands to be better, particularly in comparison to the GW wrenches made in China.

The reversibles sucked 10+ years ago. I haven't touched a GW reversible since. Fool me once...... The SK's of the same era were phenomenal and still serve me today....they were reversible too so "we had the technology," but GW - the alleged inventor - sure as hell couldn't figure it out. Today, GW's stuff is just flat out over-priced and VERY over-rated (particularly on this forum) unless you can get it on deep discounts (like the present Sears flex heads at $30 or less).

And since I have very little need or desire for non-reversing wrenches, that means I don't have much need for GW

Ratcheting wrench experts - best guess on OEM

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

ALLIANCE MEMBER

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

ALLIANCE MEMBER

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member