Got my first estimate and need lighting advice

dfmastin · Feb 9, 2017

You'll find my plans and my first estimate here:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350845
With regard to lighting I read posting by Platonic Solid here:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289441
utilized visual interior tool:
http://www.visual-3d.com/software/interiortool.aspx
This is not something that the builders have seen and incorporated into their bids. I figure once I settle on a builder I'll start working with them on specifics.
some fixtures are
12 x Lithonia Lighting 4 ft. Wraparound Fluorescent Ceiling Fixture
Model # SB 2 32 120 GESB Internet #100427375 Store SKU #138633 Store SO SKU #1000538377
This fixture uses 2 (32-Watt) T8 Bulbs (not included).
$32.97 /each
and
1x ceiling fan ~$299 Lowes North Little Rock (Item # 581598 Model # LP8147SLBN)
Fanimation Studio Collection Slinger V2 72-in Brushed Nickel Downrod Mount Indoor/Outdoor Commercial/Residential Ceiling Fan with Integrated Light Kit and Remote (9-Blade) ENERGY STAR
let me know if you have any thoughts

Garage%20floorplan%20Lighting%20down%201dnn_zpsscp5zlvi.jpg

and

Garage%20floorplan%20Lighting%20up%201dnn_zpsfjtisccc.jpg

matt_i · Feb 9, 2017

I think you can probably save some if $2k is allowed for lighting. I'm guessing that also includes wiring, switchgear, etc.

Also, I don't see any lighting in your storage cabinets/rooms. I do see the switch, unless I misunderstood and "204" is a light fixture for example...as on the other diagram I thought the switch was drawn to the fixture(s) via an arc.

Do you have a separate plan for outlets & circuit panel location?

On the downstairs plan the corner floodlight on the lower right isn't tied to anything....probably an omission but it could pose a problem w construction.

dfmastin · Feb 9, 2017

matt_i said:
I think you can probably save some if $2k is allowed for lighting. I'm guessing that also includes wiring, switchgear, etc.

Also, I don't see any lighting in your storage cabinets/rooms. I do see the switch, unless I misunderstood and "204" is a light fixture for example...as on the other diagram I thought the switch was drawn to the fixture(s) via an arc.

Do you have a separate plan for outlets & circuit panel location?

Thanks Matt!

Savings will have to come from somewhere as we can't afford the first quote we received.
You are correct. I neglected to indicate a fixture for the three storage closets on the second floor.
These are just my sketches and I haven't drawn up anything for the outlets and circuit panel location, but that's a good idea.

TheEquineFencer · Feb 9, 2017

I'd add a three way circuit for the lights at the garage doors. If you come in from the doors, you'll have to walk all the way across the area to turn on the lights. Another thing to consider, move the lights over the doors to the outer edges. When the doors are up, you will not have much light. That's how i did my lights at the doors. I have 14x14 doors and 8ft lights. The walls reflect a lot of the light back under the door area. My lights are tuned 90* from how your are laid out. Just some ideas to think about.

matt_i · Feb 9, 2017

Depending on how you use them, a pull-cord porcelain fixture would be less work and possibly less cost. Not as nicely finished but might be able to save a little. But if you are doing your own wiring, go for the wall-mounted switch which will be much nicer.

For closet fixtures, I bought a 4k LED under-cabinet fixture (1000bulbs.com) to replace a flickery, tube-eating fluorescent, and it is so much better. I think I might use one of those in a closet since they are low profile and seemingly nicer/more light.

American Locomotive · Feb 9, 2017

One thing you might want to consider is to put an additional two fluorescent fixtures right over the bench. DialLUX is showing that over your bench, you're going to be down to ~40 fc, which really isn't that bright.

Lithonia's published specs (including the info used by DialLUX) for those fixtures is assuming you're using top-of-the-line 32W T8 bulbs, which are around 3000 lumens.

A lot of the T8 bulbs you find at WalMart or Lowes or whatever are pretty low-end, and barely manage 2400 Lumens. So make sure you find bulbs that are at least 2900-3000 lumens. Otherwise you'll probably fall short of 50 fc throughout the garage.

dfmastin · Feb 10, 2017

Thanks TEF!
“I'd add a three way circuit for the lights at the garage doors.”
So have a switch next to the garage doors as you walk in?
“move the lights over the doors to the outer edges
That makes sense. I’ve never had a garage. Are there many times when the doors are up and light is desired?
“My lights are tuned 90*”
My wife picked the orientation, but seems like turning them 90 would have advantages.
Thanks matt_i!
LED lights for the storage areas might be a nice solution without breaking the bank!
Thanks A Loco!
“put an additional two fluorescent fixtures right over the bench”
That’s a good idea. I’d considered having some sort of built-in LED lights, but now that I think about it there could be lots of shelves and drawers and not much light!
“A lot of the T8 bulbs you find at WalMart or Lowes or whatever”
Well good lord I wouldn’t have considered how cheap bulbs could really affect light level. Good call!

American Locomotive · Feb 10, 2017

dfmastin said:
Thanks TEF!
That makes sense. I’ve never had a garage. Are there many times when the doors are up and light is desired?

Depends on how you like to work. We sometimes have the garage door open in the summer while working at night, and you lose a ton of light.

Painting something at night in the garage may be an application where you want light with the door open.

Well good lord I wouldn’t have considered how cheap bulbs could really affect light level. Good call!

Just look for the listen lumens on the package. Don't settle for less than around 2900 lumens.

TheEquineFencer · Feb 11, 2017

Personally, I have motion sensors light switches. The shop lights are on two separate circuits. One for the front 1/2 and the other for the back 1/2. I can select on/off for EACH light in my shop and have the sensor turn those lights on/off. I have them on the shop lights and the entrance room to the shop. I wish I'd put the shelter side lights on a timer. I have a three way circuit for them. I have one beside the door leading out to the shelter outside, weatherproof switch, then another at the other open end of the shelter at the front of the shelter.

If you have lights outside, I'd put a switch to turn them on/off from outside as well as inside. If you come up from out in the yard away from the garage, you can turn them on without going inside. I'd put outside receptacles between the garage doors outside and inside. I'd also put one on the each outside wall was around outside of the garage. Something I learned the hard way with the motion lights, do not put the sensor at normal switch level, put it around 5 ft up from the floor or just above the height on a car/truck that might be blocking the sensor path. I can walk in the back shelter side of the shop and the sensor inside the shop "sees me" above the junk inside the shop. You need to place them so it sees you ASAP. Mine have a "walk through" setting. meaning if I just walk through the shop to the office and it doesn't see anything again, it short cycles and cuts off after 3 minutes instead of timing out at the normal rate.

At some point when I find a solenoid valve with a big enough orifice, I plan to install it on my air compressor and wire it to the motion controls for the lights or else a separate sensor. That way when I walk in it will turn the air on to the shop from a fully charged compressor and when the sensor times out, it will cut the air off at the tank. That way I do not have to wait for the compressor to build up. I have a 175 PSI 80 gallon compressor. Right now I have to walk all the way to the back of the shop to turn the air on/off.

I also have a 1 hour mechanical rotary timer parallelled to my motion sensors. This is for when I'm stationary and not moving a lot in the shop. Sitting BS'ing with RJ, another GJ'r or someone else on the phone or working in one spot, the sensor might not "see" me. I turn it to 1 hour and forget it. My main idea is to have the lights cut cut off when I walk out.

Your inside wall receptacles, depending on what you plan to run, I did every other one on two separate circuits. It's a PITA to have someone else working with you and both of you trip a circuit from running a couple of tools on the same 20A breaker. I put two duplex outlets at each spot on the wall instead of a single.

I'd suggest looking at your layout as if you enter or approach the garage from any angle/door or entrance and what you might want to turn on/off.

dfmastin · Feb 11, 2017

Ok, motion sensor light switches. That seems like a really good idea. Make sure sensor is high enough to see over parked car. Consider outside receptacles. And many other good ideas/suggestions! Thanks TEF!

TheEquineFencer said:
Personally, I have motion sensors light switches. The shop lights are on two separate circuits. One for the front 1/2 and the other for the back 1/2. I can select on/off for EACH light in my shop and have the sensor turn those lights on/off. I have them on the shop lights and the entrance room to the shop. I wish I'd put the shelter side lights on a timer. I have a three way circuit for them. I have one beside the door leading out to the shelter outside, weatherproof switch, then another at the other open end of the shelter at the front of the shelter.

If you have lights outside, I'd put a switch to turn them on/off from outside as well as inside. If you come up from out in the yard away from the garage, you can turn them on without going inside. I'd put outside receptacles between the garage doors outside and inside. I'd also put one on the each outside wall was around outside of the garage. Something I learned the hard way with the motion lights, do not put the sensor at normal switch level, put it around 5 ft up from the floor or just above the height on a car/truck that might be blocking the sensor path. I can walk in the back shelter side of the shop and the sensor inside the shop "sees me" above the junk inside the shop. You need to place them so it sees you ASAP. Mine have a "walk through" setting. meaning if I just walk through the shop to the office and it doesn't see anything again, it short cycles and cuts off after 3 minutes instead of timing out at the normal rate.

At some point when I find a solenoid valve with a big enough orifice, I plan to install it on my air compressor and wire it to the motion controls for the lights or else a separate sensor. That way when I walk in it will turn the air on to the shop from a fully charged compressor and when the sensor times out, it will cut the air off at the tank. That way I do not have to wait for the compressor to build up. I have a 175 PSI 80 gallon compressor. Right now I have to walk all the way to the back of the shop to turn the air on/off.

I also have a 1 hour mechanical rotary timer parallelled to my motion sensors. This is for when I'm stationary and not moving a lot in the shop. Sitting BS'ing with RJ, another GJ'r or someone else on the phone or working in one spot, the sensor might not "see" me. I turn it to 1 hour and forget it. My main idea is to have the lights cut cut off when I walk out.

Your inside wall receptacles, depending on what you plan to run, I did every other one on two separate circuits. It's a PITA to have someone else working with you and both of you trip a circuit from running a couple of tools on the same 20A breaker. I put two duplex outlets at each spot on the wall instead of a single.

I'd suggest looking at your layout as if you enter or approach the garage from any angle/door or entrance and what you might want to turn on/off.

dfmastin · Feb 13, 2017

Second estimate (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6312501&postcount=26) not any better. Even with only $500 budgeted for lighting!

AntonLargiader · Feb 13, 2017

dfmastin said:
Even with only $500 budgeted for lighting!

Not sure what you mean. Your first post specified around $900 in fixtures and bulbs alone. What is your goal here?

dfmastin · Feb 14, 2017

AntonLargiader said:
Not sure what you mean. Your first post specified around $900 in fixtures and bulbs alone. What is your goal here?

Hi Anton,
I guess I'm coming at this from two different directions. On the one hand I have builders providing bids based on the plans alone (no lighting specifications provided). At the same time I've taken the plans and drawn in what I think I want for lighting and shared it here for feedback. As you say what I've drawn might cost $900. One builder suggested a lighting budget of $500 and another: "8. Lighting allowance to be $2,000.00 which includes recessed cans, door bells and chimes, vent lights and floods". Once we choose a builder hopefully I'll share my lighting ideas with the builder and see what can be done.

AntonLargiader · Feb 14, 2017

I guess I don't see the point of not telling the builders what you want for lighting if they are putting it in their quotes. It's part of the design like the HVAC or plumbing.

The $500 number is flat-out unrealistic and depending on what it covers the $2000 number might be also. Actually, I'm really curious what the one quote was actually going to accomplish for $500. Is there a separate number for electrical already in there which covers the lighting wiring?

At any rate, their quotes don't really affect what you want for lighting in there. The difference between good and bad lighting is probably one or two percent of the total cost and you will interact with it more than with any other single system. Not a place to make big compromises.

Pucman1 · Feb 14, 2017

Not sure of the ceiling height but notice that the door openers are the center mount old style design. Any reason why you would not go with a side mount option for the door opener. It frees up the space in the center for loft storage or in my case a nice 4 post lift for the car.

Nice lightning design so far.

Wirepuller · Feb 14, 2017

If you know what you want for electrical fixtures and locations put that in. 90% of the commercial work I bid the fixtures are clearly specified. I take those to my lighting rep and get an exact quote and lead time for the fixture package. You'll get a more accurate quote and the builders electrician will know what to expect ahead of time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dfmastin · Feb 15, 2017

Hi Anton, we started by giving builders our plans and asking for quotes. As I waited to hear back from builders I figured I'd design a potential lighting system. I can't imagine any point in withholding a lighting plan if one already had one designed. For the builders that haven't submitted a build I have shared my lighting design/thoughts.

What's really happening, I'm beginning to understand, is that builders call their subcontractors, feed them square footage and ask generally what it might cost to do the job. The builder adds up the numbers and tells the client they can probably build the garage for this amount as that's what they are hearing from their sub contractors, but the final contract is actually cost plus. Meaning they are gonna charge you whatever they can get away with and then add their twenty percent week after week until the job is done or the client runs out of money.

The $500 must have been for fixtures only. This bid didn't include a printed breakdown I could take with me. I scanned the figure sheet he'd used and took notes of which one note was "lighting $500". Surely there was another line for electrical.

Your points are all good ones. I think everything so far is pretty much a moot point as of the four builders I sent our plans to, only one of them is going to be "hungry" enough to really want to work with me to build something we can afford.

AntonLargiader said:
I guess I don't see the point of not telling the builders what you want for lighting if they are putting it in their quotes. It's part of the design like the HVAC or plumbing.

The $500 number is flat-out unrealistic and depending on what it covers the $2000 number might be also. Actually, I'm really curious what the one quote was actually going to accomplish for $500. Is there a separate number for electrical already in there which covers the lighting wiring?

At any rate, their quotes don't really affect what you want for lighting in there. The difference between good and bad lighting is probably one or two percent of the total cost and you will interact with it more than with any other single system. Not a place to make big compromises.

dfmastin · Feb 15, 2017

Hey Pucman, I was not aware of a side mount option for a door opener. I'll check that out now. Thanks!

Pucman1 said:
Not sure of the ceiling height but notice that the door openers are the center mount old style design. Any reason why you would not go with a side mount option for the door opener. It frees up the space in the center for loft storage or in my case a nice 4 post lift for the car.

Nice lightning design so far.

dfmastin · Feb 15, 2017

Sounds like a smart plan Wirepuller. When we built our house we just relied on our builder's electrical subcontractor to tell us where all the recessed lights should go and then we picked out a few ceiling fans and a couple of fixtures and that was that. Now that I've generated an initial lighting plan I've shared that and hopefully we'll end up doing just what you've suggested. Thanks!

Wirepuller said:
If you know what you want for electrical fixtures and locations put that in. 90% of the commercial work I bid the fixtures are clearly specified. I take those to my lighting rep and get an exact quote and lead time for the fixture package. You'll get a more accurate quote and the builders electrician will know what to expect ahead of time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pucman1 · Mar 6, 2017

This is the one I have and I am pleased so far.
http://www.northshorecommercialdoor.com/li85wamogado.html

dfmastin said:
Hey Pucman, I was not aware of a side mount option for a door opener. I'll check that out now. Thanks!

Got my first estimate and need lighting advice

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