Automotive Oscilloscope opinions.

jerseykat1 · Feb 21, 2017

This question is mostly geared toward automotive professionals with diagnostic experience using an oscilloscope or anyone that knows a little about scopes.

In the 600 dollar price range, there is not a lot of options for automotive centered (presets built in for different automotive tests) oscilloscopes. However you can get a damn decent labscope/table top scope for that price that has much better capabilities than any automotive scope in that price range. More features, higher sample rates, etc...

what's more important to you guided tests where the scope shows you where to connect what lead to what wire on what sensor such as the Snap on Vantage (more than 600 dollars BTW but it's just an example) or a scope that is very capable but won't hold your hand during the set up.

My thinking is that if you know how to use a scope you don't really need the hand holding during setup that automotive scopes tend try to do. However a good waveform library is nice to have.

Personally I like a more capable scope that is not going to miss anything, high sample rate, lots of storage, record features, etc.

I am using an owon sds7102 with upgraded battery (thanks to theoldwizard1 for helping with that) and it has a terrible UI but it is quite capable, and does not miss anything.

dclassical · Feb 21, 2017

I have been looking at a scope for myself in a DIY environment. For now I just borrow my friends. I have worked with expensive equipment (scopes, spectrum analyzers, ...) in a lab setting before.

One thing you did not mention that would be important to pro mechanics (I think) is how rugged they are.

For my DIY environment where I will take my time and handle the scope with care I would rather have a highly capable lab scope, that I will also be able to use when working on electronics (repairs and projects).

This video shows a nice, fun project of capturing and interpreting the CAN bus of a Tesla:

I doubt (but could be wrong) that it could be done with a pico or Snap-on scope. Again, not being very familiar with them (besides researching them) I could be wrong.

And also, almost no one will be interested in doing such a project, so a pro mechanic will not care about these feature from the Tektronix scope.

So to answer it, in my DIY situation, I am looking for a scope that is like the one in the video.

WhiffySpark · Feb 21, 2017

I've been looking for a used pico. My dealer has a vantage pro for $500. Ultra for $2k or buy a ultra mg725 and the ph3050 for $2k :lol:

fordnut85 · Feb 21, 2017

I work on flat rate so every minute counts. You can use a basic scope if you have a good wiring diagram and knowledge of the system but having it all in one tool like the vantage or versus makes it very quick

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jerseykat1 · Feb 21, 2017

WhiffySpark said:
I've been looking for a used pico. My dealer has a vantage pro for $500. Ultra for $2k or buy a ultra mg725 and the ph3050 for $2k

2 channel pico automotive starts at $819.00 on there website.
https://www.picoauto.com/products/automotive-oscilloscope-kit/overview

WhiffySpark · Feb 21, 2017

I know was looking around $500 for used but they're hard to find used. Aeswave is who I was looking at

jerseykat1 · Feb 21, 2017

dclassical said:
One thing you did not mention that would be important to pro mechanics (I think) is how rugged they are.

I did not take that into consideration. Durability for me is not an issue, as i tend to be very careful with my diagnostic equipment. But rugged is always a plus.

jerseykat1 · Feb 21, 2017

fordnut85 said:
I work on flat rate so every minute counts. You can use a basic scope if you have a good wiring diagram and knowledge of the system but having it all in one tool like the vantage or versus makes it very quick

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the Verus is great because it's a 2 in 1 deal. It does have pretty good capabilities that will probably pick up 95% of problems you will encounter in automotive applications. but it's definitely not 600 buck price range even used.

GTA Matt · Feb 21, 2017

For $600 or less, buy a used vantage pro/modis/verus, save up for a 4 or more channel pico, then sell the one you bought for what you paid for it.

thefoobag · Feb 21, 2017

I am not sure how often you use a scope, like maybe 1-2 times a month like similar to myself, maybe look at a small hand held scope, inexpensive but still 2 channel for comparison waves. Similar to the one below. I've been getting by without for now but have had several instances where Instead of proving everything around said part was good, I would have been able to prove the singular part was bad

.

forgot they also come with a small signal generator for wave output as a mini bonus!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KOF2RO2/?tag=atomicindus08-20

lbhsbz · Feb 21, 2017

$600 won't get you much. You'll need amp clamps/transducers/etc to really take advantage of it.

If you can find a used vantage pro with a bunch of accessories for your price range, I'd jump on it. Obviously, Pico is the best, but you're looking at 2-3K+ for everything you need.

I have a Hantek 6074BE. I'm no longer working as a professional tech, but it gets plenty of use. It's better than nothing, but leaves a lot to be desired. Definite learning curve to deal with the lousy software, but an effective tool. A vantage pro would be much better.

That being said, in the first 2 weeks I owned this Hantek pile, I fixed 3 cars that I wouldn't normally have been able to accurately diagnose. The first one paid for the scope, the second one put a few hundy in my pocket to buy a COP probe and a high amp probe (already had a low amp probe) and the 3rd one put money in my pocket. Over the next 2 months it's made me enough money to buy a pico...but I've decided to hold off for now.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 22, 2017

I am not a pro, but I would sure like a 'scope, not only for auto diagnostics but for hobby electronics.

I have "ranted" on other forums about the price of a PicoScope. The actual hardware of the 'scope is nothing to get excited about. Yes, it does have floating inputs (not true differential), 12 bit accuracy (most low end scopes are only 8 bits) and a ±50 mV to ±200 V range. Those are all positives.

But 400 MSaples/sec and 250 Msample buffer **** !! Maybe they are "adequate" for automotive use, but other low end 'scopes have much higher sample rates and much larger buffers (admittedly at 8 bit resolution) !

This leads me to the conclusion that they are overcharging for their "accessories" and that they think their PicoDiagnostics software is worth a whole **** load of money !!

I know you watch Eric O. and Ivan, and you notice that they tend to "bounce around" with which tool they are using. The Snap On Verus is just crazy $$$ although it does include a scan tool with data acquisition and the capability to turn acuators on and off.

If you are a pro and have the volume business to warrant it, I would probably buy the PicoScope.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 22, 2017

I think LabNation COULD be the dark horse ! They need a few tweaks to their hardware (12 bit ADC, faster sample rate, deeper buffer and the ability to handle higher voltages without external attenuators).

I have seen your video on your LabNation/Fire combination ! Great combination !! I have also heard your frustrations about not being able to take the combo to "the next step".

LabNation does not see a big enough marketplace to try to go head-to-head with Pico. They should find a couple of software guru who would be willing to write the software for a piece of the "action" or sell it independantly. Of course, LabNation is hoping those gurus would just write the software and make it "freeware".

Jeeper · Feb 22, 2017

I bought a older Modis for the scope. It's 4 channel and works for most things I have tried. I got it for $500 including a cart, low amp probe and some other accessories. I have since upgraded to the Vantage Ultra.

You can look for a similar deal on a Modis or Vantage pro. If you were closer, I'd let the modis go.

pi_guy · Feb 22, 2017

I have the modis for the 4 channel scope ability.
On my wish list is a textronic scope.
The issue with the pico it is not stand alone.
As I have mentioned before the scopes are the cheaper part by the time you add the probes you have often spent more then the scope.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 22, 2017

pi_guy said:
On my wish list is a textronic scope.
The issue with the pico it is not stand alone.

Why Tektronix and what model ?

pi_guy said:
As I have mentioned before the scopes are the cheaper part by the time you add the probes you have often spent more then the scope.

True, but you can buy many of the exact same accessories that Pico packages up for <50% of what they charge.

Rigol and Owon have the bottom end of the "bench" 'scope market locked up. Their specs are not the best, but the price is hard to beat ! The size and plastic housing don't make them the best for underhood use.

dsmnickk90 · Feb 22, 2017

I paid $800 for my vantage pro. It had 12.4 on it and came with a amp clamp, secondary probe and RPM pick up.
Would love to get a pico though

vettex2 · Feb 22, 2017

I used scopes back in the 70's and 80's.
I don't see them much in auto shops anymore.
Serious question, Do you guys use them on modern cars?
I just pull codes nowadays......

pi_guy · Feb 22, 2017

theoldwizard1 said:
Why Tektronix and what model ?

True, but you can buy many of the exact same accessories that Pico packages up for <50% of what they charge.

Rigol and Owon have the bottom end of the "bench" 'scope market locked up. Their specs are not the best, but the price is hard to beat ! The size and plastic housing don't make them the best for underhood use.

The cars I work on do not have hoods they are called engine covers.
I had a Owon for a few years until screen faded it might still work a bit dark. It worked very well until its demise, but I have more of an issue with the extra cables and the PC connected with the pico
And it was only two channel and when I got the modis it had four.

Do not know which Tektronic model I had one from 20 years ago and it was great. I am actually hot for a spectrum analyzer also. With the SA the same problem exists that all the antennas and input devices almost equal the cost of the analyzer. But my scope would be a four channel and high on Ghz model.
I have all the probes & can break out boxes and have manufactured many breakout boxes for specific connectors.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 22, 2017

vettex2 said:
I used scopes back in the 70's and 80's.
I don't see them much in auto shops anymore.
Serious question, Do you guys use them on modern cars?
I just pull codes nowadays......

"Back in the day", the Sun 'scopes were used to analyzing secondary ignition wave forms. Now a days, they are used for diagnosing various electronics issues.

Check some of the videos on YouTube for South Main Auto (Eric O.)and motoYama82 (Ivan)

GTA Matt · Feb 22, 2017

vettex2 said:
I used scopes back in the 70's and 80's.
I don't see them much in auto shops anymore.
Serious question, Do you guys use them on modern cars?
I just pull codes nowadays......

They're extremely useful on modern cars for actually testing parts or testing various systems. They speed up diag and give absolute certainty in the diagnosis. Things like coils, injectors, cam/crank correlation, cam/crank sensor testing, fuel pumps, shift solenoids, etc., especially on newer cars where everything is crammed in tight, intake plenums covering parts and components that would otherwise require a lot of time to access and test. There are in cylinder pressure transducers so you can see actual valve events. I can do a relative compression test through the cigarette lighter and confirm a jumped timing chain without ever popping the hood. I wouldn't say I use mine every single day, it all depends on what problems I'm dealing with. Some days I don't need to touch it and some days I have it hooked up to everything I touch.

vettex2 · Feb 22, 2017

Makes good sense.

rustyzman · Feb 22, 2017

I used scopes extensively as a pro tech for diagnostics. I bought my first in 1995, a Leader 300, and used that exclusively until last year. I upgraded to a used Fluke 123 complete with a Fluke low amp clamp. The Leader is an electronics DSO from the days before automotive DSO's existed. Great scope, fully manual and limited in sampling rate compared to a pico. Still much faster than most of the Graphing MultiMeters and scan tool scopes up through the early/mid 2000's. I just sold it a few months ago. The Fluke is more capable and has a much better resolution on the screen, as well as improved sampling.

The Pico is the way to go if you are working professionally and doing high level diagnostics. You can certainly get by with a Vantage for most instances. It is a very useful tool. The Pico will get down to the very fine, fast intermittent problems better than any other. If I was buying one to use professionally again (not doing it anymore), I would spend the money and get the Pico without a doubt. It is worth it. Just the flight recording functions and the incredible zoom capabilities make it worth the money. A lot of top level guys use them and it is not just to show off a name. It is a great tool and it helps them make accurate diagnosis quickly and earn more money by being efficient.

Two channels will get you by if the budget allows only that, but four channels will be more useful for the difficult diagnosis and in many cases help you to get to the root cause of an intermittent issue faster.

If the budget is not going to allow for a Pico, check out a Fluke. There are used ones available pretty inexpensively. The low amp clamp from AES Wave works pretty darn well too. It was my previous one before I got the Fluke model.

A scope is essential for deep diagnostics. I have been a huge proponent of them since I was an apprentice. For me the best way to understand what is going on in an electronic circuit is to see it first hand. The scope is the only accurate way to do that.

BTW, the Fluke 97 and 123 are manual controlled like an electronics scope and the 98 is a menu driven automotive unit. Older models but still useful (and inexpensive). They are not the latest/greatest/fastest units, but they work very well and are durable
.
They have newer units as well, but I am not that familiar with them and for their cost, I would just go get a Pico anyway.

Hope this helps a little.

jerseykat1 · Feb 22, 2017

not necessarily in the market for a new scope. i was just curious about what features in a scope do you guys find most important. I am actually quite content (for now) with my OWON 2 channel scope. It has a good amount of features, the UI ***** though. Reason I chose OWON over the Rigol is because of the battery option. I could have gotten a 4 channel Rigol for about the same price, similar specs, but i would be 100% dependent on a cord.

Personally I favor capability over the level of handholding that the Modis and the Vantage provides. Which is why i purchased the OWON. it's cheaper but I believe it's faster than the MODIS (I own a Modis, not impressed, its sitting on a shelf in my office) or Vantage (Vantage may be faster with higher sample rates than a Modis IDK). I also have a Hantek 1008c and it's not very good. But what can you expect from an 8 channel scope that costs less than $100 dollars.

The Labnation smartscope is almost fully capable for automotive use, probably a little more capable than a Modis (just a guess). The software just doesn't lend itself to using different probes like amp clamps, etc. It just needs to have the ability to add custom probe presets and that problem would be solved. The folks at Labnation claim it's coming in the next update or so, But the smartscope is also not a standalone unit however The UI on the smartscope is retty good.

I have purchased 2 of those small standalone DSO scopes that are similar to the Uscope from Amazon (sainsmart products i believe) and i have sent both of them back, because the UI was just terrible and the screen was way too small. I could not get past the screen size. Not sure how it would be possible to make a scope that has a screen that small be very easy to use.

If i do "upgrade" it will likely be a PICO but i would need to create an all in one set up for it. Not really a fan of the USB add on to a PC. wish Pico offered a standalone unit. I am no expert on scopes but i believe the hardware is just OK and the software is what makes it great for automotive use.

I do have another standalone unit that was given to me so that i could do a write up and video review and as usual the specs are not very good, pretty much on par with other "automotive" geared scopes. I did not like it at all when i first got it. But it's grown on me because it's lightweight, fairly compact with a decent screen size, battery life is pretty good (battery is easily upgradeable as well), it's touch screen with a Decent easy to figure out UI, has some common automotive sensor presets built in, with a good amount of probe presets already built in. I will get to the review of that scope soon. I will share it on the GJ when it's done.

I was considering the autel scope but i can't find any good remarks about it. I did see Eric O use it on south main auto, i asked how he liked it but i don't think he ever replied. all the folks in the autel forums say it's not worth the price. So unless they send me a review unit, i won't be purchasing it.

Skin · Feb 22, 2017

GTA Matt said:
For $600 or less, buy a used vantage pro/modis/verus, save up for a 4 or more channel pico, then sell the one you bought for what you paid for it.

For the vast majority you just need 1 or 2 channels, rarely all 4. Plus you really don't need 4 channels with a pico like you might with others since the software is so accommodating with overlays.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 22, 2017

On the EEVblog forum there are reports of running a Rigol DS1054Z on 40+VDC. That would be 2 - 6 cell 18650 packs is about 44V. Just need a charger.

xjfish · Feb 22, 2017

I learned on a "Sun" Scope. I use a Snap-On Modis today, probably a bit overpriced for many scope purposes!

jerseykat1 · Feb 23, 2017

theoldwizard1 said:
On the EEVblog forum there are reports of running a Rigol DS1054Z on 40+VDC. That would be 2 - 6 cell 18650 packs is about 44V. Just need a charger.

i was thinking about that this morning. there is probably some sort of ac to dc converter inside that can be removed and a battery pack installed in it's place. That would be pretty cool.

I originally thought i would need 4 channels but i have yet to find a situation that warrants it.

WhiffySpark · Feb 23, 2017

GTA Matt said:
For $600 or less, buy a used vantage pro/modis/verus, save up for a 4 or more channel pico, then sell the one you bought for what you paid for it.

Is the vantage pro worth buying from the guy you brought from up here? He texted me and said $500 for it. I'll need a clamp, I have plenty of leads for it. Updated to 16.4.

GTA Matt · Feb 23, 2017

WhiffySpark said:
Is the vantage pro worth buying from the guy you brought from up here? He texted me and said $500 for it. I'll need a clamp, I have plenty of leads for it. Updated to 16.4.

For 500 I'd be all over it if I was in the market. If you don't like it, you could easily resell it. Get all your accessories from aes wave.

theoldwizard1 · Feb 23, 2017

jerseykat1 said:
i was thinking about that this morning. there is probably some sort of ac to dc converter inside that can be removed and a battery pack installed in it's place. That would be pretty cool.

A DC to AC inverter is NOT REQUIRED !! This is something most people, including EE, would not think of. I am a retired EE so it made sense to me when I heard about it.

Almost ALL electronic devices (down to those tiny wall warts to charge your cell phone) now a day uses some call a "switched mode power supply" (SMPS). They are very efficient and with modern electronics are very cost effective.

Like anything, a SMPS is made up of sub-assemblies. The first "sub-assembly" is a simple half wave or full wave rectifier that converts the AC from the wall to DC. Then there is a filter so we have nice clean DC. I am going to skip the rest, because they are not relevant to this discussion.

So if the first 2 steps of a SWPS is to create clean DC, why not just feed it clean DC ? The only trick is feeding it high enough DC voltage, with sufficient current, that will satisfy the requirements of the rest of the power supply. This is very dependent of the other parts of the SMPS so it can only be determined by experimenting. Usually it is somewhere between 40VDC and 90VDC.

WARNING ! Above 40VDC you can get a very nasty shock !! Also remember, that shorted batteries will put out AS MUCH CURRENT AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN for as long as they can. Lithium batteries DO NOT LIKE BEING SHORTED and will overheat and possibly EXPLODE !!! :shocking:

jerseykat1 · Feb 23, 2017

theoldwizard1 said:
A DC to AC inverter is NOT REQUIRED !! This is something most people, including EE, would not think of. I am a retired EE so it made sense to me when I heard about it.

Almost ALL electronic devices (down to those tiny wall warts to charge your cell phone) now a day uses some call a "switched mode power supply" (SMPS). They are very efficient and with modern electronics are very cost effective.

Like anything, a SMPS is made up of sub-assemblies. The first "sub-assembly" is a simple half wave or full wave rectifier that converts the AC from the wall to DC. Then there is a filter so we have nice clean DC. I am going to skip the rest, because they are not relevant to this discussion.

So if the first 2 steps of a SWPS is to create clean DC, why not just feed it clean DC ? The only trick is feeding it high enough DC voltage, with sufficient current, that will satisfy the requirements of the rest of the power supply. This is very dependent of the other parts of the SMPS so it can only be determined by experimenting. Usually it is somewhere between 40VDC and 90VDC.

WARNING ! Above 40VDC you can get a very nasty shock !! Also remember, that shorted batteries will put out AS MUCH CURRENT AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN for as long as they can. Lithium batteries DO NOT LIKE BEING SHORTED and will overheat and possibly EXPLODE !!!

thats awesome. i would have thought there would be something along the lines of a power supply common to desktop PC's. I suppose this same hack could be done to any lab scope. would just have to find the room inside the unit to mount the batteries and make a port to plug the charger in.

jerseykat1 · Feb 23, 2017

xjfish said:
I learned on a "Sun" Scope. I use a Snap-On Modis today, probably a bit overpriced for many scope purposes!

The modis was the first scope i ever used.

WhiffySpark · Feb 24, 2017

GTA Matt said:
For 500 I'd be all over it if I was in the market. If you don't like it, you could easily resell it. Get all your accessories from aes wave.

What do you recommend?

I think I'm going to go get it from him Monday. You have to teach me how to use it. I understand the basics, but your knowledge is incredible

theoldwizard1 · Feb 24, 2017

jerseykat1 said:
thats awesome. i would have thought there would be something along the lines of a power supply common to desktop PC's. I suppose this same hack could be done to any lab scope. would just have to find the room inside the unit to mount the batteries and make a port to plug the charger in.

I would say any 'scope that has a LCD display.

PROPERLY charging a large quantity of Li-Ion cells simultaneously is not simple !

Li-Ion cells in a "pack" last longer if the a "balanced" when they are charged. Basically, this means they are actually charged as INDIVIDUAL CELLS (or at least NOT as one "lump"). If you look at the contact end of a M12 pacj (the only thing I have handy), there are extra contacts for balance charging the 3 cells inside the pack (fully charged an M12 pack produces 3 X 3.7V = 11.1V).

The Radio Controlled M\model industry has some excellent multi-cell charges that do proper proper balanced charging.but they require a lead from the positive side of each cell.

GTA Matt · Feb 24, 2017

WhiffySpark said:
What do you recommend?

I think I'm going to go get it from him Monday. You have to teach me how to use it. I understand the basics, but your knowledge is incredible

Aeswave.com, you can get their generic low amp probe for around $100. You can get a custom cable setup for a few dollars more. You don't necessarily 'need' a high amp probe unless you're actually testing things like starter draw or higher alternator output then the low amp probe. The aes high amp probe is a nice piece as well. You can use the high amp for relative compression tests, but it can be easily done without by connect your leads to the battery, set the scope to ac coupling, inverted, 500mv, 1 second sweep and crank the engine. Likewise, you can get the same results by doing voltage drop testing across fuses with the scope set on 100mv and get waveforms of coils, injectors, fuel pumps, etc., without using a low amp probe. If you join iatn, they have a great waveform library for cam/crank correlation. The best thing to do is to take it home and spend the day testing everything on your own vehicle so you can get familiar with it. Eventually, you might want to get into in cylinder pressure transducers, but analyzing those waveforms really takes experience and a trained eye.

Trey T · Feb 24, 2017

can someone tell me why the sampling rate of OBDII is so damn slow? Is it because of the software I'm using?

jerseykat1 · Feb 24, 2017

Trey T said:
can someone tell me why the sampling rate of OBDII is so damn slow? Is it because of the software I'm using?

What are you using? Most PID data has low sample rates even on factory scan tools. That's why you would use a scope to see what's really going on (what the ecm is seeing) if it's not an obvious problem.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

GTA Matt · Feb 24, 2017

It will also help if you limit you pid list to only what you need to see. There's a lot of fluff that usually has no bearing on whatever problem you are dealing with and is slowing things down.

Trey T · Feb 27, 2017

jerseykat1 said:
What are you using? Most PID data has low sample rates even on factory scan tools. That's why you would use a scope to see what's really going on (what the ecm is seeing) if it's not an obvious problem.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

factory scan tool. I don't even know how to use an oscope. I just want to use something integrated to diagnose a few things but there's so much lag ... like .5-1sec lag is too much for a few things.

Is there a limitation on a particular OBDII protocol or soemthing?

Automotive Oscilloscope opinions.

What's most important

Capabilities.. High sample rate, record features, customizable probe settings, etc

Guided tests and sensor presets. But not do good Sample rate and capabilities

save up and get a Picoscope.

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