Garage build questions

kckndrgn · Apr 13, 2017

New here and I love looking at the build and layout ideas.

My wife has decided it's time to build a detached garage/workshop for all my "stuff". :thumbup:

Now the hard part: planning, financing and building.

Planning: the building will be used for 2 purposes, garage/storage for my truck and Kubota BX tractor (and various implements) and for my woodworking (turning, flat work, refinishing, etc.). I am leaning towards a 24'x48' or 25'x50', with initial thoughts towards a 1.5 story stick built but I'm open to other options.

I know having a contractor build for me is the most expensive, but considering my time and ability it may be the best for me, though I'm not opposed to building myself. The problem there is that it's all new ground for me and I don't really know where to start.

Thought about metal buildings, they would go up faster and would be cheaper. I'm just not a fan of how they look, guess I'm more of a traditionalist.

I've build small sheds, re-framed walls, done my own home remodeling so I have the skill set to build, just not the full knowledge. I'm assuming a good set of plans and someone to talk with would fill in many of the gaps I have. My biggest liablity to building myself is time. With 2 kids in school, sports, I work 2 jobs (one FT one as a programming contractor), maintain 2 properties (home and hunting land) and I'm going to school.

Looking for thoughts, ideas and any advise on proceeding.

Thanks!

GMCGarage · Apr 13, 2017

Get a few bids for a turn-key package, and then go with the most competent one. Otherwise with your schedule it will drag on forever.

Kaizen · Apr 13, 2017

agree..get bids ....my kids are grown and I just have one job and no other commitments and its taken me forever. nothing more depressing then having a half built garage weathering away. money was my issue. 30x36 goal 20k. To have it all done for me would have been 40k.

tjdux · Apr 13, 2017

When you say metal building i assume you mean tin sheet siding as opposed to metal frame construction?

They do make some good looming metal stuff these days. Dona google image search for Morton shop homes. I also just seen tin sheets designed to look like shingle roofs thats pretty neat.

You're one busy guy. With your schedule you may at least want to look into a contractor doing the concrete, frame and dry in. After that the rest is easier to stretch out the time frame.

Good luck

Signiture; Check out my garage progress http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352703

ddawg16 · Apr 13, 2017

Welcome to GJ....

Where are you located? Your location is part of which direction you want to go.

By 'brick', do you mean cement block?

bczygan · Apr 13, 2017

Zoning is your first step.

Find out your zoning and the zoning rules.

What is your location?

Bill

kckndrgn · Apr 13, 2017

Location, Fayette County, TN.

Zoning - checked. I live in the county only so no city requirements. Detached building can be no higher than the main residence. Detached structures must be 5' from each other and the main residence, 15' from the property line and 80' from the street.
All zoning requirements are met.

Metal buildings like this:
Lincoln Steel Buildings

ddawg16 - The only brick would be to match the house on the exterior, if we wanted to spend the extra money.

Had quote done last year for 48k for a 24x32 1.5 story. Just didn't get a good feeling from the contractor or the guys that came to help with the bid. Electrician asked why I wanted 220v in the garage. :eyecrazy:

Really, look around I have a table saw, 2 lathes, air compressor and welder.

Got 2 contractors coming out next tuesday for quotes.

Cyberbear · Apr 13, 2017

It sounds like you have too many irons in the fire to give the proper attention to the important details of building your own structures. You can still act as owner/builder and have sub-contractors do the work, I've done this for decades and it's worked out well for me.

kbs2244 · Apr 13, 2017

With your skill set I would get a contractor to build a "weather tight" shell.
This will be a finished shell with all the outside work done.
It will give you a warm and dry workspace to do the finishing work at your speed.

ddawg16 · Apr 13, 2017

What is wrong with stick built? It will be easier to 'dress it up' and finishing the inside will be a lot easier.

astroracer · Apr 13, 2017

ddawg16 said:
What is wrong with stick built? It will be easier to 'dress it up' and finishing the inside will be a lot easier.

There's nothing wrong with stick built. A pole barn is cheaper to put up initially though. All you are paying for is the poles, girts, siding and roofing. With a stick built you are paying for ALL of the lumber to frame the walls also. A pole building can be up and closed in and the "walls" can be finished as time and money permits.
I did mine over a couple of years with studs, wiring, insulation and drywall as the money allowed. All the while I was still using the building as a shop.
Mark

kckndrgn · Apr 23, 2017

Thanks all,
Had 3 contractors out over the last week and half trying to get quotes, not only on the garage build but expanding our porch and making it screened in.
Everyone of the contractors said it would be a week to get the quote. I can't seem to get in touch with the first contractor, been almost 2 weeks since he was out.
I also loved how each contractor had different responses to code "issues".
One contractor said that my county requires the interior to be finished and with drywall. Nope not true, I called the county code office and spoke with the inspector. Since it's detached I can leave the walls unfinished inside, which is what I want.

It's also odd how each of them thought of different ways to get power to the shop/garage. From new meter, to upping the service to the house and installing a sub-panel.

Can't wait to get some quotes in, it will be nice to get this project started.

readhead · Apr 23, 2017

Unless you provide some kind of plan and specs you are going to get numbers all over the map. Even a basic pencil sketch and a list of requirements will help to get quotes you can compare.

ddawg16 · Apr 23, 2017

Because you want to also do wood working...I'd go stick built.
And as you admit, because you're a 'traditionalist', you prefer the look of stick.....and I can tell ya, if you did pole....after awhile you would regret your decision.

As a fellow woodworker, it's much easier to control the saw dust when you have drywall. Otherwise, you end up with cobwebs covered in saw dust EVERYWHERE! And drywall is much easier with stick.

I'd go sub-panel. 50A/240Vac is more than enough....if you don't have enough 'umph' in your main panel at the house, then upgrade.

When you run the power, upsize the conduit just in case (cost diff is minimal) and run a second conduit for data (Ethernet).

Stick does not take that much longer than pole.

Running electrical is a whole lot easier with stick.

Foundation time is about the same.....a good framing crew will have you enclosed within a week. Once the roof is on and shingled....you have plenty of time.

One suggestion....lots of windows for natural light.

kckndrgn · Apr 23, 2017

readhead said:
Unless you provide some kind of plan and specs you are going to get numbers all over the map. Even a basic pencil sketch and a list of requirements will help to get quotes you can compare.

Yes, I have a bullet point list of general requirements.
Size
Exterior finish
# of windows
Garage door size
# of man doors
# of lights
etc.
Different contractors have asked different questions. I would add my response to the list so that I am as consistent in my requirements as I can be.

ddawg16 said:
Because you want to also do wood working...I'd go stick built.
And as you admit, because you're a 'traditionalist', you prefer the look of stick.....and I can tell ya, if you did pole....after awhile you would regret your decision.

As a fellow woodworker, it's much easier to control the saw dust when you have drywall. Otherwise, you end up with cobwebs covered in saw dust EVERYWHERE! And drywall is much easier with stick.

Thanks, but no drywall will be installed, hate it. I'll probably do tongue and groove plywood that will be painted with a semi-gloss paint for a finish.

I'd go sub-panel. 50A/240Vac is more than enough....if you don't have enough 'umph' in your main panel at the house, then upgrade.

When you run the power, upsize the conduit just in case (cost diff is minimal) and run a second conduit for data (Ethernet).

Will 50A be enough if I install HVAC in the future? I live in the midsouth, without running A/C in the summer I wouldn't be able to use the shop much from May - Oct (sometimes Nov).

Stick does not take that much longer than pole.

Running electrical is a whole lot easier with stick.

Foundation time is about the same.....a good framing crew will have you enclosed within a week. Once the roof is on and shingled....you have plenty of time.

One suggestion....lots of windows for natural light.[/QUOTE]

I'm planning on 2 windows in the shop area that are south facing and one that is W (building will be pretty much along E/W lines length wise). Also one window on each end of the 2nd floor, most of our wind is from the west, so opening the upstairs windows will help with ventilation.

LED lighting throughout.

if a current tool can be changed to 240V I'll probably do it (Drill press, Table Saw, Air Compressor, Dust collector & Lathe).

Thanks again.

Jeff Ivers · Apr 24, 2017

Based on what you have posted on here, it is premature to talk to a contractor. Talk to your electric company and find out what they say about supplying electric to a separate building - I was required to feed mine from the house panel and install a subpanel. Underground or overhead feed for power? Are you going to have a concrete slab? If so, will you have, at anytime, plumbing to the building? If so, part of that has to go under the concrete. Do you hope to add heat? Remove all either/ors from what you tell the contractor. Specific size. Why 1.5 story? Around here, if you take a scale drawing of each elevation to some lumberyards, they will prepare a materials list and quote a price. After hiring a slab poured and underground plumbing completed, including conduit for electric feed. I framed my 24x50 in one week with the help of 2 other people for half the week and one person all week. Shingling the roof can take another couple of days, siding a few more. Once you reach that point, an electrician can wire a subpanel and connect to your feed. After that, everything else can be done as time and money permit. If you sound wishy-washy to a contractor, the quoted price goes up. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

matt_i · Apr 24, 2017

If you are in school, I would focus on that. Are you going to job-shop once you finish? Would that mean relocation? Just saying, don't build a nice shop at a supreme deal for the next guy to own your property. Make sure you have a plan to stay for awhile to enjoy it.

I would pay close attention to the foundation you are going to get. In my opinion, concrete is what "sets the tone" for the build as its the most time consuming and the most important part.

Various conversations with my brother who is attempting to contract a build lead me to believe you will get a higher price for a stick built garage and lower for a post frame "pole barn" build. If you do any windows, flashing them with detail is a high priority.

I would also make plans along the lines of heating and cooling, even if its something to be done later. Being able to work in comfort definitely expands the motivation and use you will get out of the building.

kckndrgn · Apr 25, 2017

Jeff,
to answer some of your questions. power company can do either a new meter or a sub-panel off the house. My current panel is 200A and is maxed out. A new meter will cost $18 per month with no usage. I spoke with the power company and they say the power to my house can be upgraded to 400A without issue. That would give me a 200A service to the garage, more than I hoped for.
The garage will be on a slab, no plans for water or septic, yes I will have HVAC at some point in the future (since summers in the mid-south are hot and humid).
As far as building myself it's a matter of time that I have available, which is not much, better to have someone else get the shell built and I can finish the interior at my leisure.

Matt, I'm continuing my education to further my ability to move up the corp ladder, so to speak. I've been at my current employer for 10yrs (3 yrs as a contractor prior to full time employment). My wife and I do not plan on moving for at least 10yrs (after our youngest graduates HS).

As far as the slab goes, it was recommended to go with 6" vs the standard 4", I'm not sure of the benefits though. The only increase in cost is the concrete, labor is billed at SQFT rate.

Just thinking ahead, if there is a chance for a lift in the future, what would the min ceiling height be? (knowing it will really depend on what lift is installed)

As far as my house panel being full, I'm thinking since the garage will be next to the well I'm wondering I we can move the power source to the well from the house panel to the garage panel, that will open a 240 circuit to use for the garage. Just a thought, but I need to speak with an electrician to see if that will work.
Thanks again for all the information.

terabitdan · Apr 25, 2017

Evaluate your current and projected electrical needs after the garage is built; Are you going to be using any additional tools in the garage that you don't have now, or just moving them? Will they be used at the same time? If it's primarily moving where the tools are and your current 200 amp service is meeting your needs, then probably no need to upgrade the main feed to the house.

A full panel can be addressed by moving some circuits to a sub-panel, at least 4 in your case, two spaces for new garage feeder and two for the new sub-panel. I'd go big (10-20 circuits) for future growth.

When I did mine this winter, using 2-2-2-4 aluminum mobile home feeder to the garage provided 90 amps for less than 6/3 50 amp wiring cost.

Figure lighting at 15 amps, dust extraction 12 amps, drill press/ table saw/ planer, etc 15 amps, HVAC 240v 30 amp, air compressor 10-30 amps. With 90 amps there'd be plenty for an RV, or who knows an electric car might be the thing within the next 20 years.

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kckndrgn · Apr 26, 2017

Thanks,
I've been working on a list and here's what I have so far:
lights - 15
HVAC - 40
Delta lathe - 12
Jet lathe - 10
Drill Press - 10/5 (120/240)
Table Saw - 15
air compressor - 15
band saw - 14
miter saw - 15
planer - ?
jointer - ?

Items that will be added/upgraded after the shop is built
Upgraded welder (current one is an old 120v and doesn't work that well)
Dust collection
table saw to contractor style (240v)

I do plan on using LED lights throughout the garage/shop areas so that should reduce the load a little.

Knowing that not all items will be on at the same time, but my kids are spending more time with me in the shop doing woodworking so I want to plan on having multiple items running at the same time. During the summer the air conditioner will be running, along with the dust collection pretty much whenever I am in the shop and depending on what I am working could have multiple smaller loads running at the same time (vacuum pump for stabilizing wood, toaster oven for curing wood, Air Compressor for casting could all be going on at the same time while working on another project).

In my garage, I basically have 2 20a circuits and on one of them with the compressor I have to be careful about phantom loads when it kicks in.

Looking at the whole house with it's 200a service. The dryer, range and water heater are all electric ( :sad:

) there is also the well pump.

So should I be concerned about having say a 90a sub panel for the garage and overloading the main house panel?
I'm guessing if the HVAC, Range, dryer and well were all running at the same time there might be an issue with having higher load items running in the garage (HVAC, air compressor, etc.)

I think (going from memory) the well is 20A, the range is 30A, the dryer is 30A and the HVAC on the house is 40A and I have no idea what the WH is running at, guessing another 30A.

So, the current 200A to the house is meeting my needs, adding a second HVAC system, DC and using other tools at the same may start pushing the limits, I would think. Last thing I want to do is trip the main breaker to the house and leave the wife in the dark :lol:

cdestuck · Apr 26, 2017

What building your garage with attic trusses be out of the question? If it's not too tall for your house I would consider that which gives you a ton of extra storage room for seldom used items And when dealing with the concrete floor I am assuming you're putting drains in it I would include in the contract that the slope must go towards the drains or the floor will be read done. Even If the drains don't go into a sewer I had mine plumbed just to the outside wall and had it back filled with shale.

kckndrgn · May 15, 2017

Well, I meet with the contractor to review the final documents and officially sign the contract to begin the work.
We are going to build a 24x48 garage, 10' walls and trussed attic to give approx 12x48 of attic storage.
At the same time as my floor is poured my wife will be getting the foundation for her 16x35 patio poured. Future plans (6+months) for the patio is to enclose it and make a 3 season porch/screened porch.

We are upgrading the home electrical service from 200A to 400A and splitting it at the meter so 200 will remain at the house and 200 will go to the garage.

Still tweaking the actual location of the build right now, but that should be locked down by the end of the week when the survey is completed.
Looking forward to making a "build" thread instead of a question thread

gsebast1 · May 16, 2017

If you are thinking about a lift in the future you may want to go 12' walls. I'm at about the same stage in my garage build as you are and trying to go 12' walls with attic trusses.

ddawg16 · May 16, 2017

I have 50A 240Vac going to my garage....I've never tripped a breaker.

I know you say your going to have multiple items running....but in reality, I bet at most its' AC...Dust collection and one power tool....maybe two...

astroracer · May 16, 2017

How much is that electrical upgrade costing you? I have 100amps going to my shop, split from the 200 amp service in the house and have never tripped a breaker... I have two lathes, a mill, 2 stage air compressor, two welders, a plasma cutter and a two post lift. If you are not running more then a couple of items at a time 100 amps is plenty, take that money and make your building 28' wide... 23' (inside dimension) is awfully narrow for a working garage.

Mark

Falcon67 · May 16, 2017

We have 200A service, 70A feed run over 2-2-2-4 MHF to the shop. Two lathes - one 240V 2 HP, 3.5 HP compressor, mill, drill press, welder, two AC units, 240V 17.5K BTU heater, lights and a two post lift. I also run a 3/4 HP well pump off the shop.

24x48 is a good size. Unless you get into car crafting, then you'll be wishing for 28~30' wide.

Mike.VA · May 16, 2017

Great start.
Good luck on your build and keep us informed and don't forget to add lots of pictures.
The GJ provides loads of help, comments, suggestions and ideas.
Just dive in and you will find it.
Welcome again.

kckndrgn · May 16, 2017

Thanks all.

As far as width, I might be able to go to 25 or 26' max, due to zoning requirements of 5' from another building and 15' from the property line. Since the previous owner decided to remove 1 of the 4 corner markers I'm waiting on the property survey to get done.

The cost to upgrade the electrical service is $25.00, the cost for the electric company to come out and turn the service back on. All other expenses would happen due to running the service from the pole to the garage.

Since the will be closer to the garage than the house, I may see about moving the service from the house meter to the garage.

I don't really do enough work on my vehicles to justify a lift, would one be nice? Yeah, gotta admit I wouldn't mind having one.

Jeff Ivers · May 16, 2017

Sounds like you have made good progress on figuring out what you want to do and congratulations on getting started. I have one question. I have seen in your post and others where people say they are maxed out on a 200 amp service box in their house. My shop was built before the house and I set it up with a 100 amp panel which was later tied to the house panel which is 200 amp. The contractor used some breakers which are 1/2 normal width in order to provide ample circuits for the 2500 sq ft house. When you say you are maxed out, do you mean there are no open slots for circuit breakers? Are all the breakers 1/2 width or normal width? Can your electrician switch some of the breakers in order to provide enough room for a 100 amp feed, instead of changing to a 400 amp panel? I am not an electrician so perhaps there are code issues I am not aware of or that have changed since I built. However I cannot imagine needing more than I have since I have 2 Central AC units on the house and have a 30 amp feed to the barn running from the shop.

tjdux · May 19, 2017

Jeff Ivers said:
Sounds like you have made good progress on figuring out what you want to do and congratulations on getting started. I have one question. I have seen in your post and others where people say they are maxed out on a 200 amp service box in their house. My shop was built before the house and I set it up with a 100 amp panel which was later tied to the house panel which is 200 amp. The contractor used some breakers which are 1/2 normal width in order to provide ample circuits for the 2500 sq ft house. When you say you are maxed out, do you mean there are no open slots for circuit breakers? Are all the breakers 1/2 width or normal width? Can your electrician switch some of the breakers in order to provide enough room for a 100 amp feed, instead of changing to a 400 amp panel? I am not an electrician so perhaps there are code issues I am not aware of or that have changed since I built. However I cannot imagine needing more than I have since I have 2 Central AC units on the house and have a 30 amp feed to the barn running from the shop.

Some boxes are not designed for those double circuit breakers you are talking about. And even so most boxes can only have x amount of total circuits. My 200 amp box is 40 total circuits and that includes the double breakers and i think that also is zero 240 amp circuits.

If you think about electrical code in many areas requires nearly each outlet in a home to be on its own circuit (especially kitchen and bath) its easy to imagine how one could fill up a box rather quickly.

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tjdux · May 19, 2017

^^^pardon my typo above where i said 240 amp circuits i ment 240 volt circuits

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