Help planning for water in new garage

Another topic looking for advice for my upcoming garage build -- I'm gradually learning everything I need to!

So I want running water in my shop -- no bathroom facilities for reasons I've listed elsewhere, but I do want a utility sink to wash up in before going back in the house, and for other clean-up and parts washing duties, etc. It also gives me more options for the hydronic in-slab heat I'll be putting in (i.e. more types of water heater / boiler, including ones that can do double duty supplying hot water to the utility sink).

Here's the thing: if my budget runs over I may not get heat right away. And even if I do, I want to plan for potential mid-winter heating failure in the future.

Obviously the water supply line coming from the house needs to be below frost depth -- that's supposedly 30" here, but I'm thinking if my cellar is deep enough to bring the line water line out at 36" - 40" deep, that might be a good idea.

At the garage end of the supply, I don't want to just bring the supply line up into the building. If I don't have (or loose) heat, I don't want risk of it freezing. Yes, I can make provisions for blowing out the lines from the house, but I'd like to be able to get water in the shop when working in there with temporary / portable heat.

Here's what I have in mind; you all can tell me if I'm crazy, overthinking this, or over-solving the problem... I'm thinking of running the main supply to a frost proof hydrant like this:



I'd have it come up through the slab in the utility closet that will house the pumps / manifolds / water heater for the in-slab heat as well as my compressor. I'll have a way to pipe compressed air into the water lines to blow them out so I can clear the lines after use in the winter, and the hydrant will ensure my supply line can't freeze.

Result: year round water in an unheated garage. Yes, it's a waste of effort if I have working heat, but I'd be able to put off installing heat until next year if I needed to, and I'd have the flexibility to keep my pluming safe during winter power outages or other heating failures.

What are your thoughts?

South of Buffalo, NY my brother had one right inside his horse barn by the door. It froze only once in 20 years that I know of? It seems odd but like you stated, but it won't freeze and damage the pipe! He ran it up in a 6" pipe so any water splashing out of it drained back down the pipe it came up through.
Just a thought!

TractorJeff said:

South of Buffalo, NY my brother had one right inside his horse barn by the door. It froze only once in 20 years that I know of? It seems odd but like you stated, but it won't freeze and damage the pipe! He ran it up in a 6" pipe so any water splashing out of it drained back down the pipe it came up through.
Just a thought!

Click to expand...

Not a bad idea, though I'd have it connected to the shop plumbing rather than using using it directly to access water. Sort of a frost proof master shutoff!

Personally I think the yard hydrant is for outside.

Consider the possibility that the below-grade rubber valve fails or fails to seal and water is leaking out into the subgrade...but...this has been cemented into a wall or floor, requiring parts to be sawn and/or broken out.

I would never want to set myself up for that. Outside, its no big deal, just dig a hole with a shovel, expose the joint, and put in a new one. But installing it inside, and having to replace it, would be a large hassle and $$$$ if you paid to have it fixed.

I would run the line, unbroken (unspliced), up into your building and terminate it there with a valve. I would rely on blowing it out, with air, seasonally, up to the point where you decide to run the heat at min 33-35F thru the winter. So I would make provisions for that inside your house or wherever you intend to tap the source.

matt_i said:

Personally I think the yard hydrant is for outside.

Consider the possibility that the below-grade rubber valve fails or fails to seal and water is leaking out into the subgrade...but...this has been cemented into a wall or floor, requiring parts to be sawn and/or broken out.

I would never want to set myself up for that. Outside, its no big deal, just dig a hole with a shovel, expose the joint, and put in a new one. But installing it inside, and having to replace it, would be a large hassle and $$$$ if you paid to have it fixed.

I would run the line, unbroken (unspliced), up into your building and terminate it there with a valve. I would rely on blowing it out, with air, seasonally, up to the point where you decide to run the heat at min 33-35F thru the winter. So I would make provisions for that inside your house or wherever you intend to tap the source.

Click to expand...

Hmm, that's a good point regarding future serviceability... A shutoff and drain valve in the house would probably allow me to syphon drain the system or blow it out with a small portable compressor and KISS at the other end of the line.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Those hydrants are completely rebuildable from above ground.

It's exactly what i have in me shop.

I charge my hydroponic heating system 1 time a year with it. It is not hooked up to auto make up.

Hydronic, not hydroponic.

Mine all goes out there in 3/4" pex tubing from the house to the shop.

I ran my water lines (hot and cold) and my radiant floor heat lines hot-in and cold-out) out to my shop buried about 48" underground in two 4" Sch 40 PVC pipe from my house crawlspace to the shop. I made a little 3 sided "tent" of 2" rigid insulation to put over the conduits (I had another for electricity) as an additional freeze protection.

When it gets into the shop it comes out in an interior wall that separates the wood shop area from the car area. From that interior wall the electricity goes to the new fuse box, hot and cold water to the sill *****, and the radiant floor goes to and from the heat manifolds. It has worked slick and no issues.

matt_i said:

Personally I think the yard hydrant is for outside.

Consider the possibility that the below-grade rubber valve fails or fails to seal and water is leaking out into the subgrade...but...this has been cemented into a wall or floor, requiring parts to be sawn and/or broken out.

I would never want to set myself up for that. Outside, its no big deal, just dig a hole with a shovel, expose the joint, and put in a new one. But installing it inside, and having to replace it, would be a large hassle and $$$$ if you paid to have it fixed.

I would run the line, unbroken (unspliced), up into your building and terminate it there with a valve. I would rely on blowing it out, with air, seasonally, up to the point where you decide to run the heat at min 33-35F thru the winter. So I would make provisions for that inside your house or wherever you intend to tap the source.

Click to expand...

I have a yard hydrant in my shop. Just cut the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket to form around the hydrant so if you have to dig it up you don't have to chip out concrete. Any water dripping out of the faucet when you disconnect the hose will just drain into the gravel around the hydrant.


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You might run 200psi poly from the house to a ground key stop and waste valve that is outside of the shop foundation. Then run the poly up where it will be convenient inside the shop.

That will work. There is a weep hole on the bottom of the assembly to drain water from the upright when it is turned off. Dig the hole, put some crushed stone in the bottom so there is somewhere for the water to drain from the weep hole, and fill the hole. We used them for years in western NY on a farm and never had freezing issues.

koditten said:

Those hydrants are completely rebuildable from above ground.

It's exactly what i have in me shop.

I charge my hydroponic heating system 1 time a year with it. It is not hooked up to auto make up.

Click to expand...

Doh, I forgot they're above ground serviceable! Thanks for the reminder on that.

koditten said:

Hydronic, not hydroponic.

Click to expand...

LOL you never know...

Randy in Maine said:

Mine all goes out there in 3/4" pex tubing from the house to the shop.

I ran my water lines (hot and cold) and my radiant floor heat lines hot-in and cold-out) out to my shop buried about 48" underground in two 4" Sch 40 PVC pipe from my house crawlspace to the shop. I made a little 3 sided "tent" of 2" rigid insulation to put over the conduits (I had another for electricity) as an additional freeze protection.

When it gets into the shop it comes out in an interior wall that separates the wood shop area from the car area. From that interior wall the electricity goes to the new fuse box, hot and cold water to the sill *****, and the radiant floor goes to and from the heat manifolds. It has worked slick and no issues.

Click to expand...

Nice setup. How far is your shop from your house? Do you have a pump(s) in the crawlspace, or is line pressure enough? And did you have to install a higher capacity water heater to cope with the load?

6768rogues said:

That will work. There is a weep hole on the bottom of the assembly to drain water from the upright when it is turned off. Dig the hole, put some crushed stone in the bottom so there is somewhere for the water to drain from the weep hole, and fill the hole. We used them for years in western NY on a farm and never had freezing issues.

Click to expand...

Good to hear you never had problems with them.

I had a frost proof faucet on the front of my house go bad the first year I lived here, because I shut it off from inside but forgot to disconnect the hose and drain the faucet... not very frost proof if left full of water! These don't have that problem thanks to that weep hole.

Multi-quote fail... picking up the other couple comments:

7635tools said:

I have a yard hydrant in my shop. Just cut the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket to form around the hydrant so if you have to dig it up you don't have to chip out concrete. Any water dripping out of the faucet when you disconnect the hose will just drain into the gravel around the hydrant.

Click to expand...

Hmm, not a bad idea with the bucket, if I go with rebar spaced apart enough; not sure it'd work with wire mesh though. Wonder if a circular penetration through the slab would cause any issues?

Majordisorder said:

You might run 200psi poly from the house to a ground key stop and waste valve that is outside of the shop foundation. Then run the poly up where it will be convenient inside the shop.

Click to expand...

Not familiar with the terms "ground key stop and waste valve"; is that an in ground shutoff/drain? I'll have to do some googling...

matt_i said:

Personally I think the yard hydrant is for outside.

Consider the possibility that the below-grade rubber valve fails or fails to seal and water is leaking out into the subgrade...but...this has been cemented into a wall or floor, requiring parts to be sawn and/or broken out.

I would never want to set myself up for that. Outside, its no big deal, just dig a hole with a shovel, expose the joint, and put in a new one. But installing it inside, and having to replace it, would be a large hassle and $$$$ if you paid to have it fixed.

Click to expand...

No longer an issue - local well driller invented this product;
http://www.seppmannenterprises.com/hydrant-assist-kit/hak/

I went through a lot of the same thinking when I ran water to my shop.

I ended up not going with the hydrant since our local area does not approve them for potable water use. When you shut that hydrant off it opens a weephole at the bottom to drain the water out of the standpipe so it doesn't freeze. That hole remains open to the ground until you turn the water back on.

So I figured if I was going to go through the effort to run water out there, I might as well be able to drink it. I ended up running 200 psi poly pipe up through the slab and put a valve on the end and branched off from there. My only regret in the whole deal was that I was required to put a double check backflow preventer on the house side of the pipe, which is not only expensive, but they require an annual inspection by a qualified plumber to re-certify. Total pain and needless expense!

Not familiar with the terms "ground key stop and waste valve"; is that an in ground shutoff/drain? I'll have to do some googling... [/QUOTE]

I just googled it and there are tons of images. Don't go cheap because they are junk. Also called stop and drain, you turn it on and off with a "t" handle of appropriate length. A piece of 4" pvc notched at the bottom is typically installed vertically over the valve prior to back fill.

Laurie:

I ran 3/4" PEX from our basement to the garage, buried 4'+ underground.

Like you, our garage was not initially insulated, so I wanted a way to drain it. While there is a spigot in the basement so it can drain into the sump, it won't drain well due to the vacuum breaker on the garage spigot.

I put together a connection that screws onto the spigot in the basement, allowing me to blow the whole system out with compressed air, including the 3/4" hose on a hose reel.

Works great, takes 5 minutes in the fall.

wasfuzz said:

No longer an issue - local well driller invented this product;
http://www.seppmannenterprises.com/hydrant-assist-kit/hak/

Click to expand...

Nice! That's good insurance.

Garage Junkie said:

I went through a lot of the same thinking when I ran water to my shop.

I ended up not going with the hydrant since our local area does not approve them for potable water use. When you shut that hydrant off it opens a weephole at the bottom to drain the water out of the standpipe so it doesn't freeze. That hole remains open to the ground until you turn the water back on.

So I figured if I was going to go through the effort to run water out there, I might as well be able to drink it. I ended up running 200 psi poly pipe up through the slab and put a valve on the end and branched off from there. My only regret in the whole deal was that I was required to put a double check backflow preventer on the house side of the pipe, which is not only expensive, but they require an annual inspection by a qualified plumber to re-certify. Total pain and needless expense!

Click to expand...

That's a painful requirement, and forever ongoing nuisance Good point about potability, though I'm not sure I'd worry about it in practice. But I'll have to check local code I guess.

Majordisorder said:

I just googled it and there are tons of images. Don't go cheap because they are junk. Also called stop and drain, you turn it on and off with a "t" handle of appropriate length. A piece of 4" pvc notched at the bottom is typically installed vertically over the valve prior to back fill.

Click to expand...

That was about what I guessed before looking it up; thanks for the explanation. Definitely not something to skimp on.

Rockcam said:

I ran 3/4" PEX from our basement to the garage, buried 4'+ underground.

Like you, our garage was not initially insulated, so I wanted a way to drain it. While there is a spigot in the basement so it can drain into the sump, it won't drain well due to the vacuum breaker on the garage spigot.

I put together a connection that screws onto the spigot in the basement, allowing me to blow the whole system out with compressed air, including the 3/4" hose on a hose reel.

Works great, takes 5 minutes in the fall.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a workable set-up, though a pain dragging a compressor down into the cellar / crawl-space. Certainly doable though.