Impact Sockets: Could the cheaper ones are better sometimes?

visionguru · Aug 16, 2017

The cheap impact sockets at HF or hardware stores are often CR-V steel with obviously thicker walls than CR-MO "pro" sockets.

The other day, when browsing the internet, I noticed the Lisle 77080 19 mm Harmonic Balancer Socket for the infamous Honda crank pulley bolt as in the picture. With this massive socket, a decent powered 1/2" drive impact wrench can take off that bolt. With normal socket, it often can't.

The theory behind it seems: the massive socket will have less flex in the metal and transfer the impact better.

By the same logic, the cheap impact sockets are thicker, CR-V is harder than CR-MO, doesn't it mean that the cheap impact sockets are actually better in transferring impact than more expensive "pro" sockets?

Michael_in_DE · Aug 16, 2017

While the HF impacts do seem to have a pretty good reputation, given the choice, I'll take a truck socket over the cheapies.

loudog212 · Aug 16, 2017

Michael_in_DE said:
While the HF impacts do seem to have a pretty good reputation, given the choice, I'll take a truck socket over the cheapies.

The opinion is great but its not backed up by facts. Why would you make that choice when both have a lifetime warranty.

sberry · Aug 16, 2017

I would take it too,,,, if someone else was paying.

Strouty · Aug 16, 2017

Thicker, cheaper, heavier. When you don't have much room, you will understand why more expensive sockets can be better. Notice I said "can be better", I use cheap ones for probably 70% of the things I do, to save the most money, only buy an expensive socket when clearance is an issue.

buffalobill · Aug 16, 2017

loudog212 said:
The opinion is great but its not backed up by facts. Why would you make that choice when both have a lifetime warranty.

Reputation. No one would trust a new HF socket over a new snap on socket.

RedneckWelder · Aug 16, 2017

Clearance is frequently an issue for what I do.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Strouty · Aug 16, 2017

buffalobill said:
Reputation. No one would trust a new HF socket over a new snap on socket.

I build radio and television towers, I exclusively use cheap impact sockets and I have never broken one, we use them with corded and cordless impacts as well as 2 foot and larger ratchets or breaker bars. If you have the clearance, they work fine. In fact I have broken more Snap On impact sockets than anything else, would that stop me from buying more? Nope, I am usually doing something questionable when they break and my driver thinks it is funny when I tell him how I broke one "this time".

Mr_B · Aug 16, 2017

HF also do the pittsburgh pro taiwan impacts which cr-mo and really nice design and not that much more than the cr-v sets

gdocktor3 · Aug 16, 2017

Strouty said:
I build radio and television towers, I exclusively use cheap impact sockets and I have never broken one, we use them with corded and cordless impacts as well as 2 foot and larger ratchets or breaker bars. If you have the clearance, they work fine. In fact I have broken more Snap On impact sockets than anything else, would that stop me from buying more? Nope, I am usually doing something questionable when they break and my driver thinks it is funny when I tell him how I broke one "this time".

Don't take this the wrong way, but building new radio/tv towers is quite different than beating on a rusty, seized crank bolt for a few minutes...

MrGiggles · Aug 16, 2017

Some of my Pittsburg CR-V sockets have a pretty sloppy fit on the anvil, which loses torque. The Professional moly sockets are much better.

Bretny · Aug 16, 2017

10yrs as a diesel mechanic and 10yrs owning HF impact sockets at work and home. Never broke, cracked or dammaged one past useable. Never even returned one and i bang appart U joints with them. HF sockets are really hard to beat. Are you going to bang out a U joint cap with a $50 snap-on socket?

DFB · Aug 16, 2017

I have a lot of different CrV impact sockets around Klutch, Great Neck, TSC Job Smart, Cal Hawk, early HF, even some that came an old air ratchet impact wrench set and they are all about the same shape and thickness. And overall the fit tolerance on these has been very good and not sloppy at all both on the fastener end but also on the tool end.

But wow the newer HF (non Pittsburgh Pro set) certainly are wicked thick and oversized compare to the rest of them. Even the cased 37pc impact set that HF sells are of a thinner wall design and more like the ones listed above.

I pitch a lot of them on my flea mkt tool table including those cheaper HF offerings and lot of people want the HF ones because of thickness. I guess they perceive it being stronger. :dunno:

Who am I to say different if they want to buy them

And while I haven't ever used any of those particular ones IMO I do think the 3/8 deep wall ones HF offer are disgustingly thick looking even for impact grade socket. Even more so than the 1/2 shallows.

I cant comment on the fit tolerance of those 3/8" deep sockets or the 1/2 shallow I hawk. Either over the fastener or on the tool anvil not actually using any.

Slightly off topic I have use HF impact grade extension bars and thought they were total s**t for fit on my drive anvils both 3/8" and 1/2" Very loose.

Personally I haven't broken any of the ones I do use of the ones I first listed. Mostly cordless impacts I have several including Milwaukee's High Impact 2763.

To address the theory of heavier is better I have some thinner wall Cr Mo ones Eastwood sourced Apex in 3/8" and if I switched between them and the Crv same impact tool/same fastener my seat of the pants observation is that the CrV ones do seem to hit a bit harder. :dunno:

Loscaldazar · Aug 16, 2017

visionguru said:
The theory behind it seems: the massive socket will have less flex in the metal and transfer the impact better.

By the same logic, the cheap impact sockets are thicker, CR-V is harder than CR-MO, doesn't it mean that the cheap impact sockets are actually better in transferring impact than more expensive "pro" sockets?

Not sure where you heard that. The theory behind the socket is that Force=Mass*Acceleration

The impact can accelerate both sockets at roughly the same rate, so the heavier socket will result in more force being applied to the nut. It's the same reason that an impact wrench will register higher numbers on a tester when it is using a 2" socket and nut combination vs. a 1/2" nut and socket combination.

Al Borland · Aug 16, 2017

I tear things apart for work. I use the HF pro impacts because they work and are cheap. If a socket falls from a lift or catwalk, I'll probably never find it anyway. (Even after I paint them bright orange). Right (semi-disposable) tool for the job.

T45 · Aug 16, 2017

1) Ther is lots of variation within " cheap" sockets....so much so that the concept is meaningless.

2) CR-V is boderline negligence on an impact...its simply the wrong tool for the job. Even if it "works"...so does using a crescent wrench with a hammer.

3) If you just want to recommend imported quality sockets...nobody will debat they are useful bodering on absolutely good enoug...

4) Economical and Cheap are not the same thing...Cheap is cutting corners and economical is simply no frills but properly engineered.

5) Specialty intertial/moment sockets and "crappy" sockets with excess mass are not interchangeble tools.

This is delusional...especially when using CRV...the extra thickness is to keep them from exploding (brittle fracture)...which brings up the point about elasticity and delivery of power...the best hammers are HRC 30 core and HRC 57-58 at the face...nobody wants a hammer that is brittle and HRC 58 through and through...so same with impacts, you want a hardness and elastic balance properly engineered...think also about deadblow hammers and which hammers actually hit the hardest...they are not the ones that are brittle and stiff through and through...

:

Thats my $0.02.

visionguru · Aug 16, 2017

Loscaldazar said:
Not sure where you heard that. The theory behind the socket is that Force=Mass*Acceleration

The impact can accelerate both sockets at roughly the same rate, so the heavier socket will result in more force being applied to the nut. It's the same reason that an impact wrench will register higher numbers on a tester when it is using a 2" socket and nut combination vs. a 1/2" nut and socket combination.

Not an expert in physics, my comment was based on this picture from MAC tools:

Loscaldazar · Aug 16, 2017

visionguru said:
Not an expert in physics, my comment was based on this picture from MAC tools:

Mac needs to get their marketing department back in line then

:beer:

Socket flex makes very little difference in the actual torque applied. Socket extensions, with how small they are, make a noticeable difference (part of that also is from the slop between the multiple drive ends introduced into the system also). Sockets are generally thick enough already that they do not flex on a noticeable level to the end user.

It's similar to saying waxing your car will help with fuel economy. On a near imperceptible scale, it can. Other modifications (in this case, less weight) makes a much larger difference on your fuel economy.

Ultimately, a cheaper impact socket that happens to be heavier (thicker because of weaker steel) should result in more torque applied to a fastener all other things equal. The difference will only probably be a few grams, meaning the torque applied will be minimal. It is doubtful that there are many circumstances where switching over to a socket with a few more grams of mass will make a difference, unless your impact was just a few ft-lbs below what it needed to remove a bolt.

Now when you add 3x the mass like that extra heavy Mac/Lisle socket, that is such a large difference as to make a noticeable difference.

On the "social engineering" side of things, those with nice impact sockets are also more likely to have a nicer impact wrench, making a few extra grams from a cheap socket matter even less. My IR2235 has yet to fail on something....

CJM8515 · Aug 16, 2017

FWIW I did road service work for 10 years among other things. Back when the only game in town for a good cordless impact was snap on I bought one. Think it had about 400ft-lbs torque. I didnt dare bother with snap on or any tool truck brand sockets. I did buy a IR flip socket for lug nuts tho. I finally lost it one day and was in wally world and they had stanley 11pc metric and sae sets for liek 12 bucks ea. I bought one each and proceeded to use them on the job and at home for the last 12 years. I havent once broken them, Ive abused the **** out of them too.

Really cheap **** I can see breaking. But its pretty hard to mess up an impact grade socket really. I have an entire set of sunex 3/8 stuff I love too and HF impacts that dont quit.

If you wanna spend 1000 bucks to buy snap on you go right ahead.I aint.

theoldwizard1 · Aug 16, 2017

visionguru said:
... the cheap impact sockets are thicker, CR-V is harder than CR-MO, doesn't it mean that the cheap impact sockets are actually better in transferring impact than more expensive "pro" sockets?

CR-V is harder and more likely to crack ! CR-MO is "tougher" and will take the repeated impacts for a longer period of time.

Tonyuk · Aug 17, 2017

I've had plenty of sockets over the years and none of them have been more then £100 a set. I can't stomach the idea of spending hundreds on such basic tools when the modern cheapies fit well and work just as good.

The two sets in work i use most common didn't cost more than £40 each. My shallow impact set cost £28 and the deep impact set was £37.

Shallow is CR-V and the deep is CR-MO. They both get around an equal amount of use (deeps maybe a bit more) and over the last 5 years they still look almost new with the exception with some roughness around the outside and the coating wearing on the inside.

I've looked at a few snap-on sockets owned by others in work for a similar time and they aren't in any better condition. Granted the snap-ons are a bit thinner but only compared to the shallow CR-V's, the deep CR-MO's are the same by the looks of it.

More important to buy good quality ratchets and impacts than it is to buy top-end sockets imo.

Ole Slewfoot · Aug 17, 2017

I got a set of HF "impact" deep sockets and shattered the first 3 I tried with a fake IR impact (~240 ft lb?).
Exchanged the set for chrome ones to use on the impact. Those all lasted more than a week.

The hard ones like that crack with nasty jagged edges that can rip your hand up pretty fast.

Mr_B · Aug 17, 2017

The reality is buying cheaper sets wisely gives you good sockets at good prices .
The cr-mo taiwan sockets are not over priced so no need buy cheap cr-v impacts.
I buy Japan Style cr-mo sets that come in 18pc sets generally and get rebranded buy few brands worldwide. Cost is about $45 a set, they nice design and tolerance, proper range of sizes and I never had issue with them in terms of wear fitment or breakages and they get used for everything and anything when a job needs get done .
Certainly would not spend 200bucks on impact set when can get just as good for quarter the cost and use/abuse how I like and self warranty and still have more money left for spending on tools that do need the higher cost option .

Mr_B · Aug 17, 2017

The reality is buying cheaper sets wisely gives you good sockets at good prices .
The cr-mo taiwan sockets are not over priced so no need buy cheap cr-v impacts.
I buy Japan Style cr-mo sets that come in 18pc sets generally and get rebranded buy few brands worldwide. Cost is about $45 a set, they nice design and tolerance, proper range of sizes and I never had issue with them in terms of wear fitment or breakages and they get used for everything and anything when a job needs get done .
Certainly would not spend 200bucks on impact set when can get just as good for quarter the cost and use/abuse how I like and self warranty when day comes and still have more money left for spending on tools that do need the higher cost option .

VinceG · Aug 17, 2017

In most cases the cheaper ones work fine. till you get in a spot when the socket wont fit because how thick it is. In the deep sockets I prefer MAC they are a litter longer and the 6 point cut goes to the bottom so the fit over sensors

JohnDeere1 · Aug 18, 2017

I have sune,snap on,mac, and Cornwell and the best out of all are the Sunex they hold up better the snap on are the worst they are too soft and get screwed up at the square end after the first use. The sunex can't 've beat for the price I paid $50 for a complete 1/2 deep sae and metric set with flip sockets.

Fcvapor05 · Aug 18, 2017

what exactly is a 'japan style' socket

I don't know if the cheaper ones are ever 'better' but they're always cheaper.

FP|| · Aug 18, 2017

https://www.ingersollrandproducts.c...ve-individual-impact-sockets/powersocket.html

Taken to an extreme... Always wanted to try these

rmsg0040 · Aug 18, 2017

JohnDeere1 said:
I have sune,snap on,mac, and Cornwell and the best out of all are the Sunex they hold up better the snap on are the worst they are too soft and get screwed up at the square end after the first use. The sunex can't 've beat for the price I paid $50 for a complete 1/2 deep sae and metric set with flip sockets.

I agree, have genius, sunex, gp at home, they hold up well, at work we have 2 SO mid-impact sets and the ends are soft, first couple uses the ends look so worn

Mr_B · Aug 18, 2017

Not a big fan of the sunex as external and internal shaping not the best, gearwrench is better, just lacking the lower grip groove like japan style sets that make gripping/pulling sockets off tools far easier.

Crazyjake8493 · Aug 18, 2017

I don't know if the cheaper ones are worse, as good, or better. But I've got two full sets of SAE/Met impact sockets from Harbor Freight that I've never had an issue with, and a cheap Tekton flip socket set in the car with the cordless impact wrench.

visionguru · Aug 18, 2017

I have an Ironton (NorthernTool house brand) 3/8 drive deep/shallow metric impact set, $15, which probably can't be any cheaper.
I also have a 3/8" drive Snap-on semi-deep set.

Here are the 14mm sockets. The weights/diameters from left to right are:
117g, 63g, 53g
22mm, 20.4mm,22mm

If Ironton makes a semi-deep, it's likely weighing 85g (average of deep and shallow), which is more than 1/3 heavier than Snap-on.

I have used the cheapo a couple of times, works just fine.Was planning to upgrade all to pro-brands, now it seems not worth it for my several times a year kind of useage and likely won't perform any better.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

lbhsbz · Aug 18, 2017

I bought a set of Harbor Freight metric deep 1/2" impact sockets 20 years ago..right when they switched to the relieved corner design on the hex...these had the somewhat glossy black oxide finish. I used them in a professional environment for at least 10 years and still use them quite a bit. I broke the 21mm after 6 years of beating on toyota lug nuts at the dealer, but the rest have been fine. They are taiwan. I believe I paid 19.99 for the set. They are thinner wall than Snap-on, but about the same as Mac. I'm happy with 'em.

Codejack · Aug 18, 2017

visionguru said:
Not an expert in physics, my comment was based on this picture from MAC tools:

OK, well, I supposedly AM an expert in physics, and I don't think that any of you are correct

At the rate that impacts are hitting the socket, I don't think that socket flex will have anything to do with it; compression, maybe, but not flex.

And you aren't getting any more energy; it doesn't just come from nowhere, if it has more mass, then it takes more energy to get it up to speed, and it's all coming from the mass of the impact system in the wrench itself. Making the socket heavier is like making the driveshaft of the car heavier; it's not going to help that way.

If I had to guess (and I do, since I can't find a lot of information on the socket), I would say that it is just made out of a much harder alloy, or at least the outside is treated to be harder, so that it doesn't "give" as much when hit by the impact.

At the same time, they made it thicker to prevent it from shattering. It's big enough to have a large, hard shell but still be springy in the middle.

------------------

As for impacts overall, I have never broken even the off-brand ones I got with an air tool kit 15 years ago.

I got some Gearwrench because they were a good deal, and because HF doesn't make 3/8" impacts in their pro line. I plan on buying 1/2" Pittsburgh Pro sockets in sets, and filling in the blanks as I need them.

They are both the thin-wall style, both from Taiwan, both well-reviewed.

I like my Snap On ratchet; it's going to be a while before I get convinced to buy their sockets.

lbhsbz · Aug 18, 2017

Also, the "action" plays a fairly significant role in how the impacting works. I've had plenty of fasteners the wouldn't break loose...until I grabbed the socket and held it preloaded counterclockwise...then it broke free. With the lightweight socket rattling around on it...it wouldn't have. What Lisle and IR has done with these whizbang sockets is to allow it to rattle around a bit, but add a whole lot of mass to increase the "bang". I've noticed one trick that many of these "high torque" impacts use is to not allow the anvil to freewheel like it does on a pneumatic gun...but keep it preloaded while impacting. That makes a significant difference.

Olafur · Aug 18, 2017

Codejack said:
OK, well, I supposedly AM an expert in physics, and I don't think that any of you are correct

At the rate that impacts are hitting the socket, I don't think that socket flex will have anything to do with it; compression, maybe, but not flex.

Well, since I have decades of experience hammering on chrome sockets with impact guns I can state as a fact that impact sockets can remove fasteners chrome sockets can't. I have found two possible explanations - weight (inertia) and wall thickness (flex)

Regarding the extra thick sockets made for ex. for Honda Crank bolts - It has crossed my mind they are playing with natural frequency (eigenfrequency) of the gun-socket system. I am to lazy to read up on my engineering classes since 20 years ago to investigate - what do you think?

Olafur · Aug 18, 2017

As for impact socket "quality" - respectable companies make them safe - soft and they wear out.
Other make them "though as nails" and don't care much for safety. In some cases you could just as well use chrome sockets - except perhaps for the difference in wall thickness. They split in equal fashion.

Snap On, Koken, Facom...etc.. get sued if their impact sockets cause accidents in industrial environment. The Chinese don't have to worry about that - so they make them last.

Codejack · Aug 19, 2017

Olafur said:
Well, since I have decades of experience hammering on chrome sockets with impact guns I can state as a fact that impact sockets can remove fasteners chrome sockets can't. I have found two possible explanations - weight (inertia) and wall thickness (flex)

I think it is the wall thickness, but not because of flex, as I said; I recently twisted two (good!) chrome sockets trying to use them to remove a bolt, but they twisted (deformed) before the bolt broke loose.

They are simply too thin too have enough metal to get both a thick, hard outer shell and a springy core. They will either "spring" too much and not transfer the impact, or be too hard and shatter.

Olafur said:
Regarding the extra thick sockets made for ex. for Honda Crank bolts - It has crossed my mind they are playing with natural frequency (eigenfrequency) of the gun-socket system. I am to lazy to read up on my engineering classes since 20 years ago to investigate - what do you think?

I'm not sure what that would do; if you were trying to break loose the socket, maybe, but it's the socket-bolt (or even bolt-device) system that will matter, and that will vary wildly with only a slight difference in spec.

Even then, the most important factor would be the impact frequency, which is determined by the gun, not the socket.

My theory is still that it is just extra thick so it can have a very thick, hard outer shell and still have a springy core; hard enough to transfer more of the force, springy enough to not break.

Yarpo · Aug 19, 2017

There's somebody who is a SUPER EXPERT here on psychics. He also claims anyone who is not shouldn't work on vehicles, I'm waiting for him to chime in :rocker:

Impact Sockets: Could the cheaper ones are better sometimes?

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