The Craftsman Oddball/Mystery Thread

twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

I'm going to start this off with the infamous N4, or 4N, or 4, or N forged-in marked wrenches. First, long deep offset DBEs. As you can see, every variation.

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twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

Here's a long C shorty with an N4 but no CI.

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twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

A long C CI Combo with an 8.

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twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

And for good measure, a Circle P (Wilde, who we don't believe ever made any wrenches) DOE with the N4.

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woody 73 · Sep 15, 2017

It went something like this a long time ago Ed and Carl were having lunch, when Ed turns to Carl and says " Hey Carl lets screw around with the forging dies and screw over future tool hunters like Woody and Twertsy".

So fifty years later here are two or more tool hunters with that look on their face, you know that look... :headscrat

twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

woody 73 said:
It went something like this a long time ago Ed and Carl were having lunch, when Ed turns to Carl and says " Hey Carl lets screw around with the forging dies and screw over future tool hunters like Woody and Twertsy".

So fifty years later here are two or more tool hunters with that look on their face, you know that look...

Those bastards!

So, digging through all those wrenches, I noticed what might be a pattern......not a single N4 coded wrench I have is chromed. All appear to be plain steel. Not a single chrome C Underline wrench I own has the N4 code.......I'm leaning toward a wartime marking.

Greg, did they have Navy contracts?

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Zeeman · Sep 15, 2017

Very interesting. I'll go look at mine and post some pics later if that's ok.

twertsy · Sep 15, 2017

Zeeman said:
Very interesting. I'll go look at mine and post some pics later if that's ok.

Absolutely! That's the intent.

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twertsy · Oct 4, 2017

Here are a few more oddballs from the weekend flea.

1. Combo with 11/32 open end and 3/8 box, BT Code, supposedly Vlchek.........not

2. DOEs, one with N4 code and one with E3 code, both circle P, supposedly Wilde..........doubt it.

3. DBEs, bottom 2 have N4 and a V forged in, no code. Top has circle P, no forged in marks.

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Dennis Leigh Henry · Oct 4, 2017

Dang.. now I need to look at all my Craftsman wrenches....closer... lol

Rileysan · Oct 4, 2017

Thank you guys for the reminder ... I picked up a DOE wrench this past weekend I had forgotten to check!

I initially picked this up out of a box because of the size - 1 1/8" x 1 1/16" - which I needed to complete my set of =V= DOE wrenches. Even though it wasn't =V=, I decided to purchase it because of the unusual digits cast into it. Like Todd's DOEs, this has a circle-p at one end. However, the other end is marked with "HM". It hadn't occurred to me until reading Todd's posts that this was originally un-plated.

Brian

Provincial · Oct 5, 2017

Is it possible that the N markings relate to wartime steel alloys? That would make sense, especially since Sears was not a manufacturer, so it would not have had government contracts. The N tools may have had no warranty.

Empty Pockets · Oct 5, 2017

Every time I look into Twertsy's posts, I have more stuff to look for.

d42jeep · Oct 5, 2017

Provincial said:
Is it possible that the N markings relate to wartime steel alloys? That would make sense, especially since Sears was not a manufacturer, so it would not have had government contracts. The N tools may have had no warranty.

Sears actually had contracts with the Signal Corps during WW2 to supply tools.
-Don

d42jeep · Oct 7, 2017

Here is my only N4 marked wrench. It is marked Craftsman on both sides with no other markings. I did check the Wilde section on AA where they talk about some wrenches with the N4 code.

http://alloy-artifacts.org/wilde-tool.html

-Don

twertsy · Oct 8, 2017

d42jeep said:
Here is my only N4 marked wrench. It is marked Craftsman on both sides with no other markings. I did check the Wilde section on AA where they talk about some wrenches with the N4 code.

http://alloy-artifacts.org/wilde-tool.html

-Don

I saw that, but no discussion about the N4 meaning or origin. I have hundreds, if not thousands of wrenches laid out in the shop in an effort to track down this mystery......today!

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Private Lugnutz · Oct 8, 2017

d42jeep said:
Sears actually had contracts with the Signal Corps during WW2 to supply tools.

To augment this information, in addition to the Signal Corps tools contracts, Sears & Roebuck also had a Treasury Dept contract for SMALL TOOLS ($331,000, 1/42) - these were explicitly Lend-Lease (sent to England), a contract with the Ordnance Dept for GUN TOOLS ($2.540M, 7/43), a contract with the Navy Bureau of Ships for ELEC REPAIR KITS ($250,000, 6/45) and with the USAAF for SOCKETS ($60K, 6/44).

My apologies, Don. I had missed these in prior discussions. Sears & Roebuck has a page and a half of contracts at various offices, mostly for miscellaneous materiel, from apparel (e.g., shoes, handkerchiefs, watches) to padlocks, barrels, and shells. It's been awhile since I went through their section.

Signal Corps kits TE-9, TE-41, and TE-44 had DOE wrenches, TE-47 had DBE wrenches.

It's open to interpretation whether any of these other contracts included DOEs or DBEs. Armorers kits did not. The Lend-Lease may very well have. Perhaps the Navy's electronics repair kits, though doubtful. As for the USAAF contract, it's not apparent that "sockets" even refers to wrenches.

theoldwizard1 · Oct 8, 2017

twertsy said:
Here's a long C shorty with an N4 but no CI.

That morphed into the the same thing without the deep offset. I have a set of 3. 3/8-7/16, 1/2-9/16, Very useful !

Anyone ever seen a metric equivalent ?

d42jeep · Oct 23, 2017

I found a =V= marked Craftsman wrench with an N casting mark yesterday.
-Don

d42jeep · Oct 27, 2017

I don't believe that they did. The link below makes for some interesting (and exhausting) reading. Sears does not appear on that list because they had contracts with the Signal Corps.
-Don
http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=242969

drivesitfar · Oct 27, 2017

Twertsy: i think we need a couple pics of your hundreds or maybe thousands of wrenches laid out in your shop if you still have them laying around?

d42jeep · Oct 28, 2017

Another day, another plain finish Craftsman wrench, in this case a 3/8" X 7/16" DOE.
-Don

AdrianBoomer · Nov 1, 2017

Im putting together a box of 1930s C-Man stuff and I am a newb with these things. But I have done some research but I am still confused. I thought I would share this and see what you think, what the differences are regarding age, factory etc. I love this place for this sort of thing. Please educate me. I probably will have more questions that I will save for a different place but I thought this was the perfect venue for this photo based on the topic

AdrianBoomer · Nov 3, 2017

I would love to know a bit more info. I have read the alloy site. I just thought this would be good conversation, Twertsy, you seem very knowledgeable!

twertsy · Nov 7, 2017

Ok, here's one for you guys. In going through newspaper adverts from the 1940's trying to narrow down the MDF era's beginning, I found these advertisements, ONLY in February of 1946. Before that date, all pictures show New Britain ratchets, drive tools and sockets. After February of 1946, all pictures show either NB or Plomb socketry.

This picture represents two iterations of the same ad, which I included because one is dark and the other light making it easier to see certain portions. There is one different advert from February that again shows these tools but in a different configuration. No knurling on the sockets (which ALL NB / Plomb CMAN sockets had) and a paddle-handle racetrack head ratchet.

Somebody tell me this isn't a Penens made socket set, being marketed as Craftsman.

Anyone ever seen one? Or better yet, have one?

twertsy · Nov 7, 2017

Did a lot of work on Craftsman Trademarks this morning. I'm up to 1950 and will continue up through the years in the coming days.

http://toolarchives.com/node/3952

3baygarage · Nov 7, 2017

twertsy said:
Ok, here's one for you guys. In going through newspaper adverts from the 1940's trying to narrow down the MDF era's beginning, I found these advertisements, ONLY in February of 1946. Before that date, all pictures show New Britain ratchets, drive tools and sockets. After February of 1946, all pictures show either NB or Plomb socketry.

This picture represents two iterations of the same ad, which I included because one is dark and the other light making it easier to see certain portions. There is one different advert from February that again shows these tools but in a different configuration. No knurling on the sockets (which ALL NB / Plomb CMAN sockets had) and a paddle-handle racetrack head ratchet.

Somebody tell me this isn't a Penens made socket set, being marketed as Craftsman.

Anyone ever seen one? Or better yet, have one?

Looks like it could be a Circle U breaker bar, but man does that handle look like a Plomb WF ratchet, and not the circle U Plomb ratchet.

It's an artist's rendering, but why would the wrong ratchet serve as the model?

Rileysan · Nov 7, 2017

Your work on dating Craftsman tools from this very tough era is greatly appreciated, Twertsy!

As for the ad in question, I wish I had something to add to to help, but I do not.

Brian

twertsy · Nov 7, 2017

3baygarage said:
Looks like it could be a Circle U breaker bar, but man does that handle look like a Plomb WF ratchet, and not the circle U Plomb ratchet.

It's an artist's rendering, but why would the wrong ratchet serve as the model?

Actually I think that's just a bad pic (or should I say old). The thing that points me to the paddle handle (WF) is the lack of knurling on the sockets. If I fast forward just a month or two, every advert has knurled sockets, and either NBM or Plomb drive tools. These February adverts do have me intrigued though, and I'll absolutely be looking for Penens built CMan branded stuff in the future. Another interesting element to this......all the February adverts that look like the WF ratchet are from Texas, no other state.

3baygarage · Nov 7, 2017

Maybe those are the mysterious S.R. marked sockets and ratchet. Sears Roebuck. :3gears:

Now I'm just causing trouble. I know. :lol:

Ole Slewfoot · Nov 8, 2017

My circle U swivel sockets are identical to the WF ones

tried a little cleanup...

d42jeep · Nov 8, 2017

If you ignore the ratchet, the box with the leather handle and two snaps along with the rest of the drive tools pretty much resembles this Craftsman Circle H set I used to have.
-Don

twertsy · Nov 8, 2017

d42jeep said:
If you ignore the ratchet, the box with the leather handle and two snaps along with the rest of the drive tools pretty much resembles this Craftsman Circle H set I used to have.
-Don

I actually thought about that Don, but there's no knurling on the extensions either. Every other advert, even drawings (not real pictures) all show knurling on the drive tools and sockets, as they should be. This one is confusing because of that, as well as the ratchet appearance.

d42jeep · Nov 8, 2017

Well, with the quality of those images, the details are a bit hard to make out. The ratchet shape still remains the main mystery. It sure doesn't look like any Craftsman example that I've ever seen! :dunno:

-Don

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