New build w/high bays

stevelh · Nov 24, 2017

I am having a 40x60x14 pole barn with scissor trusses (14’ sidewall 17’ in the middle) built in a few weeks. I am planning to use the aleo slb2-95 and a lighting plan that has already been recommended. However, my plans is to have an 18’x40’x9’ room for “dirty” stuff and a wood shop. If I drop the last row of lights in this lighting plan would I be ok with getting good light everywhere? The 40x42 side with be for rec room for the kids, vehicles and general tinkering on things. Up above the room will be for storing stuff/****! I still have figured out the lights for the wood shop (18’x22’) and the dirty side 18’x18’ (mower compressor, blast cabinet, utility side of things; maybe t8’s or other led’s.

Also, the ceiling will be white metal and the walls will be plywood (probably unpainted) on the bottom 8’ and white metal the rest of the way up.

Any comments or ideas is appreciated!

iplumb · Nov 24, 2017

Can you post the lighting plan? Or a link? I just built a 40x60x13 Thanks.

stevelh · Nov 25, 2017

The attached thumbnail is what I am going by. It has 5 rows of four lights in a 56’ building. I plan to just space them accordingly for my 60’, maybe without the fifth row.

iplumb · Nov 25, 2017

stevelh said:
The attached thumbnail is what I am going by. It has 5 rows of four lights in a 56’ building. I plan to just space them accordingly for my 60’, maybe without the fifth row.

Gotcha thx

Platonic Solid · Nov 26, 2017

iplumb - See this thread - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369428

Platonic Solid · Nov 26, 2017

stevelh - Yes, dropping the last row of lights is fine. Not sure how much light you need in the 2nd story storage area, but spillover from main room may be adequate. 2-Lamp 4ft strip lights as mentioned on The Best Light Fixture thread page 1 is good for your 9ft ceiling rooms.

stevelh · Nov 28, 2017

Thanks for chiming in PS. That’s what I’ll do. Hopefully we will get started in 3-4 weeks.

75gmck25 · Nov 28, 2017

I would suggest that you paint/seal the plywood on the lower half of the walls with a good medium to high gloss paint. It will make it much easier to clean dirt and other junk off the walls if the wood has been sealed with a good coat of paint. I would probably use a medium grey to constrast with the white upper walls.

Bruce

stevelh · Nov 29, 2017

Thanks for the suggestion. Depending on what the wood looks like when up, my first thought would be water based poly. Something to seal it up but still look like wood

stevelh · Jan 30, 2018

Good news is poles are in the ground! I emailed LED lighting wholesale about getting these http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/EHB2-13-p/ehb2-110.htm?CartID=1 , thinking I would need 16 of them. They cam back with these http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ZY-H3-165W-p/zy-h3-165w.htm and said I would only need 6. That's a big difference. So I downloaded Dialux evo and attempted to get an idea of what both lights would do but cannot seem to find the luminary files for these. With having two 12x12 doors that follow the scissor truss like I may have to play with the layout a bit to avoid the doors. Just looking for the bigger lights right now, as I will buy the lights for the smaller rooms later when they get built

Lelandwelds · Jan 30, 2018

stevelh said:
Good news is poles are in the ground! I emailed LED lighting wholesale about getting these http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/EHB2-13-p/ehb2-110.htm?CartID=1 , thinking I would need 16 of them. They cam back with these http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ZY-H3-165W-p/zy-h3-165w.htm and said I would only need 6. That's a big difference. So I downloaded Dialux evo and attempted to get an idea of what both lights would do but cannot seem to find the luminary files for these. With having two 12x12 doors that follow the scissor truss like I may have to play with the layout a bit to avoid the doors. Just looking for the bigger lights right now, as I will buy the lights for the smaller rooms later when they get built

Excuse my near total inexperience, but isn't the new lighting plan much less even than the old?

Platonic Solid · Jan 30, 2018

It's really sad when a lighting distributor incorrectly tells a customer what to buy. I strongly suggest you not take any more lighting layout advice from "LED Lighting Wholesale Inc.".

Below based on 42x40x15.5 space:

Qty.6 of 24,563 lm 165W fixtures (as recommended by "LED Lighting Wholesale Inc.")
yields Avg. 67fc @ 30" workplane
It will have some glare, be uneven and shadow prone as it's not possible to space the fixtures properly.

Qty.9 of 24,563 lm 165W fixtures yields 98fc @ 30" workplane - This can work as long as you don't mind some glare, but is only $162 cheaper than below

Qty.16 of 14,410 lm 110W fixtures yields 100fc @ 30" workplane - best layout, least shadows, least glare, most comfortable environment to be in.

Radix2 · Jan 31, 2018

As a comparison, in my 50x60 with 14 foot sidewalls and 18 foot in the center area, I used 12 of the James 165w lights - the light is excellent and 100fc+

I wouldn't go with fewer than 12 of the 165w lights in that size of space.

The 16 of the 110w sounds good

stevelh · Jan 31, 2018

Thanks for the replies. I am all for saving money with fewer fixtures, but I also don’t want to do it twice. I appreciate everyone’s help, including led lighting. Can’t have to many options, just know some are better than others! Thanks!

When I get to that point I’ll post some pics, or start a build thread, haven’t decided.

Platonic Solid · Jan 31, 2018

You need to mind spacing criteria. See this post:

Platonic Solid said:
You're not wrong, but keep spacing criteria in mind. Use 1.25 as the spacing criteria. Yeah, I know what you're thinking = (WTF does that mean?). Spacing criteria is maximum distance between fixtures to get even illumination. 1.25 is a multiplier based on mounting height minus workplane. Thus 12' mtg - 2.5' workplane = 9.5' x 1.25 spacing criteria = 11.9' max center to center fixture spacing.

Going from 10,400lm fixtures to 14,300lm fixtures does not change spacing criteria. If you've achieved even illumination with your current layout using 10,400lm fixtures, it will remain just as even with the same layout using 14,300lm fixtures. You just have a lot more light.

The misconception is that you can use fewer high lumen fixtures instead of more low lumen fixtures to save money - and you can, but risk uneven illumination, shadows and glare.

OH_Varmntr · Jan 31, 2018

stevelh, I quoted the following post because these are the fixtures I have in my 48x64 shop with 14' flat ceilings.

Platonic Solid said:
Qty.16 of 14,410 lm 110W fixtures yields 100fc @ 30" workplane - best layout, least shadows, least glare, most comfortable environment to be in.

I installed 20 of them and you can follow this link to see how it turned out in my build thread.

cory58 · Feb 1, 2018

PS - You mention that the 165w fixtures would have some glare. The fixtures you recommend are 110w version of the same fixture. Is the glare from the higher wattage at the OP’s mounting height? If so, what min height would you recommend for the 165w light?

Thanks, Cory

Lelandwelds · Feb 1, 2018

cory58 said:
PS - You mention that the 165w fixtures would have some glare. The fixtures you recommend are 110w version of the same fixture. Is the glare from the higher wattage at the OP’s mounting height? If so, what min height would you recommend for the 165w light?

Thanks, Cory

Radix2 said:
As a comparison, in my 50x60 with 14 foot sidewalls and 18 foot in the center area, I used 12 of the James 165w lights - the light is excellent and 100fc+

I wouldn't go with fewer than 12 of the 165w lights in that size of space.

The 16 of the 110w sounds good

OH_Varmntr said:
stevelh, I quoted the following post because these are the fixtures I have in my 48x64 shop with 14' flat ceilings.

I installed 20 of them and you can follow this link to see how it turned out in my build thread.

Nice photo and some people won't follow the link. When you finish, it will be impressive. I hope you cover the walls and epoxy the floor. I think you have convinced me a v rib or snap lok with lots of flat space is better than the panel you chose. Sheet rock is a PITA to install overhead.

Platonic Solid said:
It's really sad when a lighting distributor incorrectly tells a customer what to buy. I strongly suggest you not take any more lighting layout advice from "LED Lighting Wholesale Inc.".

Below based on 42x40x15.5 space:

Qty.6 of 24,563 lm 165W fixtures (as recommended by "LED Lighting Wholesale Inc.")
yields Avg. 67fc @ 30" workplane
It will have some glare, be uneven and shadow prone as it's not possible to space the fixtures properly.

Qty.9 of 24,563 lm 165W fixtures yields 98fc @ 30" workplane - This can work as long as you don't mind some glare, but is only $162 cheaper than below

Qty.16 of 14,410 lm 110W fixtures yields 100fc @ 30" workplane - best layout, least shadows, least glare, most comfortable environment to be in.

If you think about it, this thread really shows the utility of this forum. More than one solution is shown and more importantly, the concept and advantages of each are made obvious. I am accustomed to making do with atrocious lighting because that's all I knew. I see now that with a tiny bit of assistance ( too big a chunk unfortunately falls to PS and CD) much nicer results are possible for minor differences in cash. Could I have worked under four HPS or twenty can lights? Sure. But, why?

Assuming the OP has already purchased the 165 w lights and can't return, what is the best option to improve? Add three more 165 w? Install 3ea 110w and one 165 w total along each side and four of the 165 w in the peak? I bet there is another 3 feet headroom above the bottom of those 17 ft scissor trusses.

I am starting to get it. (Hope my lighting is as nice and even as this gorgeous space.)

OH_Varmntr · Feb 1, 2018

Thanks Leland, check out the link in my signature to see how I’m finishing my interior. The concrete will be bare other than the sealer that was used after it was poured. It looks spotty in the pic because the concrete hadn’t released all of ya moisture yet. It’s much more uniform in color now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Platonic Solid · Feb 1, 2018

cory58 said:
PS - You mention that the 165w fixtures would have some glare. The fixtures you recommend are 110w version of the same fixture. Is the glare from the higher wattage at the OP’s mounting height? If so, what min height would you recommend for the 165w light?

Thanks, Cory

Yes, the glare is from high output fixtures mounted too low. The glare doesn't start significantly dropping off on the 165W 24563 lm fixture until 20ft.

I ran some tests based on OPs space 42x40x15.5 (I averaged the 15.5' mounting height and used a flat ceiling) here are the results:

42x40x15-165W-6 Qty.6 165W 24563lm fixtures
42x40x15-165W-9 Qty.9 165W 24563lm fixtures
42x40x15-110W-16 Qty.16 110W 14410lm fixtures

Go to the last page of each PDF to compare the glare results. Red indicates too much glare. Take this with a grain of salt as glare calculations are far from a perfect science, but it does get the point across.

cory58 · Feb 2, 2018

Platonic Solid said:
Yes, the glare is from high output fixtures mounted too low. The glare doesn't start significantly dropping off on the 165W 24563 lm fixture until 20ft.

I ran some tests based on OPs space 42x40x15.5 (I averaged the 15.5' mounting height and used a flat ceiling) here are the results:

42x40x15-165W-6 Qty.6 165W 24563lm fixtures
42x40x15-165W-9 Qty.9 165W 24563lm fixtures
42x40x15-110W-16 Qty.16 110W 14410lm fixtures

Go to the last page of each PDF to compare the glare results. Red indicates too much glare. Take this with a grain of salt as glare calculations are far from a perfect science, but it does get the point across.

PS - Many thanks for the great info (as always!). I looked at the Dialux reports and I'm not sure how to read the glare info, but your 20 foot comment is extremely helpful. The mounting height at the peak of my garage is 15-16 feet, so the 165w lights are a no-go.

Cory

Radix2 · Feb 3, 2018

cory58 said:
PS - Many thanks for the great info (as always!). I looked at the Dialux reports and I'm not sure how to read the glare info, but your 20 foot comment is extremely helpful. The mounting height at the peak of my garage is 15-16 feet, so the 165w lights are a no-go.

Cory

I have 12 of the 165s at 14-15feet and they are fine. These led panels are much better than old style hibay lights or the t5ho with the shiny reflectors and exposed bulbs. These fixtures spread the light out over much larger areas than the old fixtures, giving a lower point illumination and glare. I don't think dialux has any way to make a decent estimate based on the actual fixture characteristics (the ugr method is source independent), and if you look at the graphs that PS posted, the "good" example is just under "25" and the bad is just over "25" ...with the limit being a "25" so.. not much a ton to learn from that IMO. But at the room size and reasonable number of fixtures required at 16 in that example, it makes good sense to go with the 110w version - the more lights the more even the lighting and the less shadowing you have.

My biggest worry was glare when configuring my lights, and I and everyone who has seen it is happy with the result.

I think the big thing is to make sure you have a good balance between the size of the area and the number of lights - the spacing criteria as PS pointed out earlier. If you need a excessive number of fixtures it makes sense to up the lumens, if you have too few, it is better to use more at a lower lumen level. If your area supports say 12+ of the 165w fixtures at that height I wouldn't be concerned at all, by the same token if it takes 30+ low wattage fixtures to get the illumination you want, then I would look for a higher wattage/lumen fixture. It is of course dependent on how much burden you want to take on and the cost to install many fixtures.

Platonic Solid · Feb 3, 2018

Radix2 said:
I have 12 of the 165s at 14-15feet and they are fine. These led panels are much better than old style hibay lights or the t5ho with the shiny reflectors and exposed bulbs. These fixtures spread the light out over much larger areas than the old fixtures, giving a lower point illumination and glare. I don't think dialux has any way to make a decent estimate based on the actual fixture characteristics (the ugr method is source independent), and if you look at the graphs that PS posted, the "good" example is just under "25" and the bad is just over "25" ...with the limit being a "25" so.. not much a ton to learn from that IMO. But at the room size and reasonable number of fixtures required at 16 in that example, it makes good sense to go with the 110w version - the more lights the more even the lighting and the less shadowing you have.

My biggest worry was glare when configuring my lights, and I and everyone who has seen it is happy with the result.

I think the big thing is to make sure you have a good balance between the size of the area and the number of lights - the spacing criteria as PS pointed out earlier. If you need a excessive number of fixtures it makes sense to up the lumens, if you have too few, it is better to use more at a lower lumen level. If your area supports say 12+ of the 165w fixtures at that height I wouldn't be concerned at all, by the same token if it takes 30+ low wattage fixtures to get the illumination you want, then I would look for a higher wattage/lumen fixture. It is of course dependent on how much burden you want to take on and the cost to install many fixtures.

Radix2 - I agree with you. I base most of my layouts on a combination of shadow reduction, spacing criteria and keeping Max/Min Uniformity Ratio below 3. I've likely used 24000 lm fixtures below 20ft in some of these layouts before (no easy way to search it). Plus everything changes once you fill the space with stuff. Glare is subjective and trying to calculate it is far from a perfect science. It's like going to the doctor and they ask you what your pain level is on a scale of 1 to 10. The real key to whether glare is an issue is in this statement: "I and everyone who has seen it is happy with the result." as that is exactly what the glare calculation is supposed to be based on.

One thing to watch for when using high lumen fixtures at lower heights is fixture spacing from the wall. In many of these garage layouts you want light between a car and the wall to reduce shadows, but placing a 24000 lumen fixture 2ft from a wall will cause a large very bright spot on the wall which can easily become uncomfortable to the average person (yes glare). It can be quite difficult to find a balance. Reducing fixture mounting height and intensity is one option. For those on the fence on which way to go, don't overlook the dimming feature which can be very useful in giving you some control after the fact.

Lelandwelds · Feb 4, 2018

Rad and PS You two are getting much better at explaining this stuff. My other reading is less neutral and rather dated.

THANKS.

New build w/high bays

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