Old billings and Spencer wrench

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

Customer gave me this old wrench

four.cycle · Dec 6, 2017

^ that's an interesting twist on design. what's the patent date on that thing?

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

Feb 18th 1879

Private Lugnutz · Dec 6, 2017

Nice gift!

That's an early version, made exactly like the patent diagram, shown here on the USPTO page.

I have one, same patent stamped on it, but it doesn't have the open slide. The slide is internal.

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

He thought it was a caliper

four.cycle · Dec 6, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
I have one, same patent stamped on it, but it doesn't have the open slide. The slide is internal.

Ahhh.... that's how those things work! I see similar units listed on Ebay frequently and wondered how that adjustment wheel worked!

Quite the find.

Private Lugnutz · Dec 6, 2017

Oldtuleguy said:
He thought it was a caliper

I can see that, confusing the graduated capacity scale as a rule.

woody 73 · Dec 6, 2017

Very nice I had not seen that model before.

A few pictures and the model that I own:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277390

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

Those are some neat looking wrenches. I just kind of lucked into this one, but then for some reason I have always been a magnet this stuff. After working on cars for the last 40+ years, when people learn I collect this stuff, they frequently offer to sell or just give me any weird old tools they have. Most people really don't view tools as collectable and think I am nuts.

leg17 · Dec 6, 2017

They may be called bicycle wrenches.

Private Lugnutz · Dec 6, 2017

That was indeed a popular categorical application, giving them their street name. Later, they were also popular in motorcycle kits. Believe it or not, they were in British motorcycle toolkits as late as 1945. (See thumbnail.) I am putting the wrench I showed above in my 1943 BSA kit, even though it looks like it wants the open slide version, and I haven't been able to determine if it was actually a B&S wrench or a British knockoff. Incidentally, C. E. Billings identified them as "screw-wrenches" and "monkey-wrenches" in his patent application.

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

There was a British knockoff? Interesting

Mintgrun · Dec 6, 2017

I have one that is quite similar, but says KING ****.

The overall length when closed is six inches.

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

That is defiantly same basic design

Private Lugnutz · Dec 6, 2017

Dang! King **** was (and maybe still is for all I know) a British mfgr! I have a full set of their DBE wrenches. I bet that's the one that went in the WWII B.S.A. (Birmingham Small Arms) WDM20 motorcycle kit pictured above in diagram form! A bit longer than the B&S, which are just a tad over 4 inches, but I'd bet my next paycheck on that being the right wrench. I'm going to ask someone on the BSA forum, and, if that's it, and if you're not overly wedded to it, I would trade you straight up my Made in USA Billings & Spencer for your Made in England KING ****, Mintgrun.

Oldtuleguy · Dec 6, 2017

These king **** knock offs must have been quite popular, as a quick ebay search turned up a bunch.

Private Lugnutz · Dec 6, 2017

In hindsight, I may have been too hasty. It's possible that Billings appropriated the design from a British patent. I haven't really looked into that.

I did confirm that the little "adjustable spanner" (British term) in the BSA kit was made by Abingdon King ****. But it may have been smaller than 6". They made a 4" and a 2-7/8"!!

Private Lugnutz · Dec 7, 2017

Here's the reply I got from one of the experts on the BSA W.D. M20 website to questions about markings and length.

"'Abingdon' 'King-****' and 'AKD' were variously used without apparent pattern. AKD was owned by the Mansell family and Bill Mansell was also owner of R.T. Shelley (The owners of Norton) so identical tools with the same Registered Design number can also be found marked 'Shelley' or 'RTS'If assembling a wartime toolkit, the main thing to watch is that over the course of time, there were a couple of small changes made in order to retain the 'novelty' which was an aspect of the design registration requirements. An open slot above the finger nut indicates pre-1932 and a nut longer than it is wide was a post-war introduction. Late 1930s / wartime had a shorter nut and a slot closed at the lower end. The drawing in the parts book on this site is actually the early version. The same drawing had probably been used since the 1920s. Henk's is the correct type.The M20 toolkit spanner looks to be a nominal 6".If you want to research further, there is even a book about them !https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Spanner-History-Origins-Development/dp/1785000357"

Note: The drawing he references is the diagram I posted above. And his reference to a wrench owned by a guy named Henk (the BSA website founder) being the correct type for wartime can be seen in the thumbnail below. I'm actually confused by his explanation and may go back for a clarification. Mintgrun's wrench looks like the drawing AND the example to me. Not sure what he means by "a slot closed at the lower end," but the slot just above the thumbnut on Henk's wrench, Mintgrun's wrench and the wrench in the drawing looks the same to me.

Mintgrun · Dec 7, 2017

I am guessing that this one on eBay is the open slot version, with the shorter nut.

Mine has the closed slot/long nut, apparently making it post-war?

Private Lugnutz · Dec 7, 2017

Mintgrun said:
I am guessing that this one on eBay is the open slot version, with the shorter nut.... Mine has the long nut, apparently making it post-war?

I see the longer thumb nut difference now, more noticeable to me when I focus on the size and shape of the well its in rather than the thumb nut itself. I just don't understand the "closed slot at the lower end" characteristic he is referring to. I see a long slot for the slide on the wrench in the drawing, on your wrench, and on the wrench used as a correct example on the BSA site. I don't see any difference with respect to the area where the slot ends, just above the thumb nut, in any of these wrenches.

I am still very interested in a one-for-one trade (my B&S for your KD) if you are, even thought yours is apparently post-war. For a few reasons.

First of all, the right type of wrench from the right manufacturer, but post-war, is better than the wrong wrench from the wrong manufacturer, or no wrench at all.

Secondly, I can be a picky (precise, spec-demanding, etc) collector, but in this case (a slightly longer nut?), close is pretty danged good (and practically imperceptible).

Thirdly, I am actually preserving my BSA W.D. M20 "as is." It's an all-original numbers matching WWII motorcycle, but it served in the British Army on the Rhine for many years after the war, sports its original BAOR registration plates on the fenders, 2nd Armored Division logo and other BAOR markings (e.g., "DRIVE ON RIGHT" on the gas tank!), got an overhaul from REME in 1955 (dutifully stamped on the data plate on the valve cover), was de-commissioned in 1974, and still retains its coat of NATO green paint. Most guys would strip it and re-store it to WWII condition, but I am choosing to honor its entire service history. It's not at all out of the question that some of the tools - to include the "EB262 adjustable spanner" - would've been lost and replaced in the 50's.

If not, no worries, no hard feelings.

notlob · Dec 7, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
I just don't understand the "closed slot at the lower end" characteristic he is referring to. ... I don't see any difference with respect to the area where the slot ends, just above the thumb nut, in any of these wrenches.

Lugz - I believe he is referring to the area just to the left of the adjusting nut in the upper pic below. You can see that the slot does not extend all the way to the nut, unlike the OP's wrench (lower pic), where the slot continues to the top of the nut.

Closed Slot

Open Slot

Private Lugnutz · Dec 7, 2017

Thanks, notlob. I see it now. The toolkit diagram, showing a wrench like Oldtuleguy's, open slot all the way to the nut, is pre-war. The BSA website example has a closed-off slot, as it should for wartime. Mintrgun's has a closed-off slot, but a longer post-war nut.

Mintgrun · Dec 7, 2017

Mintgrun's is in a padded envelope, awaiting your address.
Feel free to email me, if you are interested in owning the one I have.
tebrockbass@hotmail . com

Modern Garage · Dec 8, 2017

Lugz, is the diagram you posted meant to be a supplemental tool kit to accompany the motorcycle where it gets posted, or a kit meant to be carried by the rider at all times?
Looking back from these reliable times it seems like a lot of weight to carry for daily duties, (but then I've ridden places with friends who carry more than this even now.)
Perhaps the packaged parts (tube patch kit, chain links, tool roll) are to be carried while the others stay safely home. It seems odd to expect something like the oil can and (presumed) grease gun above the tool roll would be carried every day for only once daily use.
What would you think was the expected 40's or 50's era usage?
Joe

Farmer J. · Dec 8, 2017

Here's some King **** adjustable spanners, for your reference Lugz, and a Heyco one similar design but split thread.
The 6" King **** came in a Land Rover tool kit new in 1984.
All the King **** ones have minor variations in the way round they are cast, the name stamping, and the knurling on the nuts just as the BSA expert says.
King **** are still going strong as a company and make good quality tools but they don't make this model any more. They have an interesting history of the company, and the name, on the website.
http://www.kingdicktools.co.uk/info/about-us.asp

Farmer J. · Dec 8, 2017

The GJ picture gremlin strikes again... They were there when I pre viewed the post, but not when I posted it!
Attempt no. 2, hope the pictures are here this time..

Private Lugnutz · Dec 8, 2017

Modern Garage said:
Lugz, is the diagram you posted meant to be a supplemental tool kit to accompany the motorcycle where it gets posted, or a kit meant to be carried by the rider at all times?...[ ]...What would you think was the expected 40's or 50's era usage?

Mod,
The US (Harley, Indian) and British (B.S.A., Norton, Triumph, others) WWII motorcycles are very well historically documented. All the tools in that diagram were indeed carried on-board the WWII motorcycle for rider maintenance. As an Army engineer, always concerned about what we call SWAP (size, weight and power) for short, I really do understand your point. At nearly 400 lbs, I think the tools were the least of the War Dept's concerns with these beasts!

View media item 76558
Do you see the wedge- or sort of heart-shaped compartment with a toggle just above the tailpipe and just behind the oil tank in this photo?

That's the toolbox!

And here is how it was to be packed with the tools shown in the other diagram...

View media item 76572

Farmer J. said:
Here's some King **** adjustable spanners, for your reference Lugz

Thanks, Farmer J! I'll take the second one from the right!

All,

I would really like to get to the bottom of the patent situation! Does anyone else find it hard (nay impossible) to believe that the King **** adjustable spanners and Mr Billings' bicycle wrench were invented from scratch completely independently of each other and just happened to come out with nearly identical form and function?!

Mintgrun · Dec 8, 2017

"Thanks, Farmer J! I'll take the second one from the right!"

Hold your horses, Lugz... unless you want two of them.
I put mine in the mail to you yesterday.
You should see it tomorrow.
I see it is going to a good home.

When I was growing up, the next door neighbor (who was an engineer for International Harvester) collected and restored Indian motorcycles. I wish I had been old enough to really appreciate them at the time.

I like that my wrench will be living in that kit.
Tom

Private Lugnutz · Dec 8, 2017

I was only teasing Farmer J, Tom! I didn't really expect him to send one from merry old England.

And thanks! It will be a royal honor to unite your King **** with its little palatial mates on my bike!

Btw, it didn't take very long to get an answer on the sequence of the wrenches...

"According to Ron Geesin in his book, the King **** Spanner 'first appeared in the early 1880s and was a very close copy of Charles E. Billing's patent of 1879'. The King **** logo was registered in 1881."

Farmer J. · Dec 8, 2017

That's interesting about the history, I never guessed that!
I will see if I can get mine out of my freezing cold barn tomorrow and have a closer look at what it says on them, and maybe get someone to take better pictures.
Lugz, if you actually would like that 4" one I'm sure it could be arranged, let me know if it's needed.

Private Lugnutz · Dec 8, 2017

Farmer J. said:
Lugz, if you actually would like that 4" one I'm sure it could be arranged, let me know if it's needed.

I appreciate the thought, but that won't be necessary, Farmer J. Tom sent me his.

Farmer J. · Dec 9, 2017

- The 10" one on the left of my pictures says 'KING ****' along the slider above the threaded part.
- The 6" one says 'ABINGDON' across the top of the movable jaw, and 'KING ****' along the slider above the thread.
- The 4" one says all on the slider 'BRITISH MADE KING **** H2418'
- The old 4" one that Lugz likes says 'SHELLY' on one side of the top jaw, and 'BRITISH MADE' on the other. It has a narrower nut than the others.

LoveSniff · Apr 27, 2018

I've got a few of those. Can't find hardly any info about dating them.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Shelbylex · Apr 27, 2018

Here are my couple of wrenches from the same design type:
Billings and Spencer type A (Hartford CT)
JC Speirs (patented Sept 6, 1891; Worcester, MA)

Private Lugnutz · Apr 28, 2018

Shelbylex said:
If I remember correctly, Billings and Spencer Wrenches were patented a year earlier than similar King **** models.

Read post #29.

Shelbylex · Apr 28, 2018

Thank you, Lugz. Missed it. Erased the first sentence to avoid misinformation - was off by a year

Dave455 · Apr 29, 2018

Hi Lugz!

I can help you a bit here, as those King **** wrenches are quite common in the U.K.

Firstly, the wrench shown in your BSA diagram is almost certainly a King ****. The tell tale features are that the slot is on the other side, compared to the Billings, and the adjuster is grooved. From the proportions I’d say it was a 6 inch, but you’d need to print and scale the diagram to be sure!

Also, there’s no way BSA would have provided an imported tool! Nothing to do with patriotism, and everything to do with cost and availabity!

Those King **** adjustables were actually of very good quality. The jaws are much more rigid than the ‘Swedish pattern’ we tend to use now, and they are very usable. I have a couple around, and there’s definitely one in my Dad’s plumbing tools box, that he used to use regularly!

If you want one, I can probably find you one. The post war ones were no different, as far as I have noticed, to the war time ones. May be able to find you a war dated one, but the only way you would know was if it was a government contract tool, and thus marked with a date!

Edit - just noticed page two of this thread, covering a lot of this!

With regard to the original origins of the design, my Grandfather (long departed but the authority on all things tool related) always referred to this pattern as a ‘Billings adjustable’ despite his being made, as far as I’ve found, by King ****.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 29, 2018

Dave455 said:
With regard to the original origins of the design, my Grandfather (long departed but the authority on all things tool related) always referred to this pattern as a ‘Billings adjustable’ despite his being made, as far as I’ve found, by King ****.

A very honorable habit. Thanks for the extra background, Dave.

LoveSniff · May 4, 2018

Just picked up this Billings, no Spencer. Was this before they merged? Or did they split at some point?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Oldtuleguy · May 4, 2018

Must be a later version

Old billings and Spencer wrench

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member