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Wiring question for LED flat panels

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jjscott

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I’m getting ready to order 12 flat panel LED lights in my garage and have few questions regarding the wiring. The lights are LumeGen 2x4 72W 9000lm. This lights are dimmable and require a 0-10V LED dimmer switch and a separate low voltage wire pair. Links to the lighting documentation are listed below.

Looking at the limited wiring instructions, I’m assuming the LED driver box is converting the 120V AC line voltage to 10V DC for the dimmer circuit. This assumption is based on seeing the dimmer positive and negative terminals as outputs which I assume would be fed back to a passive dimmer switch to control the current to the LED positive and negative terminals. Would you agree?

Would I be able to wire the dimmer circuit in parallel for all 12 lights? Basically running wires from the DIM + & DIM – terminals on the first light to dimmer wall switch and then jumper wires from the DIM + & DIM – on the first light to the same terminals on the second light and continue the same pattern from the second to the third and so on. Is this the right way to do it?

What gauge wire would you use for the dimmer circuit?

I’m assuming my existing 15 amp circuit would be fine for running 12 of the 72W fixtures as they should be pulling 7.2 amps, right?

My garage currently has three incandescent bulbs that are controlled by two separate switches. One in the house and one on the garage. Neither switches are dimmable. I would like to replace the switch in the garage with a dimmer and on/off toggle and leave the one in the house alone. Will this work or do I also need to get a dimmer for the house and run a separate low voltage circuit to it?

I plan to wire four of the LED’s together from one of the existing wiring runs from the incandescents…basically doing this three times.

Curious to hear your thoughts

https://www.lightup.com/media/downloads/786/Lumegen_Panel_Light_Instructions.pdf

https://www.lightup.com/media/downloads/939/LEDLGHT1000036812.pdf

https://www.lightup.com/flat-panel-2x4-led-light-72w-dim-200w-equiv-9000-lumens-lumegen.html
 
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biggziff

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I was told that is the way to do it. I bought the 10400 lumen lights, but have not wired them all yet.
 
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cybrdyke

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jjscott said:
I’m getting ready to order 12 flat panel LED lights in my garage and have few questions regarding the wiring. The lights are LumeGen 2x4 72W 9000lm. This lights are dimmable and require a 0-10V LED dimmer switch and a separate low voltage wire pair. Links to the lighting documentation are listed below.

Looking at the limited wiring instructions, I’m assuming the LED driver box is converting the 120V AC line voltage to 10V DC for the dimmer circuit. This assumption is based on seeing the dimmer positive and negative terminals as outputs which I assume would be fed back to a passive dimmer switch to control the current to the LED positive and negative terminals. Would you agree?This is correct

Would I be able to wire the dimmer circuit in parallel for all 12 lights? Basically running wires from the DIM + & DIM – terminals on the first light to dimmer wall switch and then jumper wires from the DIM + & DIM – on the first light to the same terminals on the second light and continue the same pattern from the second to the third and so on. Is this the right way to do it?That will work

What gauge wire would you use for the dimmer circuit? 16 solid

I’m assuming my existing 15 amp circuit would be fine for running 12 of the 72W fixtures as they should be pulling 7.2 amps, right? Yes.

My garage currently has three incandescent bulbs that are controlled by two separate switches. One in the house and one on the garage. Neither switches are dimmable. I would like to replace the switch in the garage with a dimmer and on/off toggle and leave the one in the house alone. Will this work or do I also need to get a dimmer for the house and run a separate low voltage circuit to it?That should work....unless something's abnormal

I plan to wire four of the LED’s together from one of the existing wiring runs from the incandescents…basically doing this three times.

Curious to hear your thoughts

https://www.lightup.com/media/downloads/786/Lumegen_Panel_Light_Instructions.pdf

https://www.lightup.com/media/downloads/939/LEDLGHT1000036812.pdf

https://www.lightup.com/flat-panel-2x4-led-light-72w-dim-200w-equiv-9000-lumens-lumegen.html
Click to expand...

Good luck,
CD
 
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spudley

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Depending on your sq ft, I think you're going to have a pretty bright area. Just bought a single shop light @ 4200 lumens and I can't look at it. I'm amazed at the light output of these LED's.
 
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jjscott

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spudley said:
Depending on your sq ft, I think you're going to have a pretty bright area. Just bought a single shop light @ 4200 lumens and I can't look at it. I'm amazed at the light output of these LED's.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's the plan. I want it bright enough to be able to detail my cars and bike. I made sure they are dimmable so I can turn them down for normal use.

Plantonic Solid provided the recommendation. The garage is 33x24 with an 11ft ceiling.
 
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spudley

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jjscott said:
Yep, that's the plan. I want it bright enough to be able to detail my cars and bike. I made sure they are dimmable so I can turn them down for normal use.

Plantonic Solid provided the recommendation. The garage is 33x24 with an 11ft ceiling.
Click to expand...
He da man! No criticism pal, I'm just amazed at the light output of LED's. You"ll be able to do surgery in there.
Using the dimmable types and switching them in banks of four is wise.
Let us know how it works, I'm building a 24 x 38 this spring, so I might be a copy cat.
Good luck.
 
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jjscott

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Yeah, should be pretty bright. I'm going to buy half of them initially just to see what I'm getting myself into. If it looks overkill, I'll end up scaling back.
 
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Platonic Solid

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What you wrote sounds good.

I believe this is the dimmer you want: https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html
0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html with this wall plate: https://www.lightup.com/screwless-decorator-gfci-wall-plate-1-gang-enerlites.html

That dimmer can handle up to 720W = 10 72W fixtures max.

I see no reason you can't keep your interior On/Off switch as is. Just keep the DC wires separate from the AC to avoid interference from the AC magnetic field.
 
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biggziff

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Platonic Solid said:
What you wrote sounds good.

I believe this is the dimmer you want: https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-
0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html with this wall plate: https://www.lightup.com/screwless-decorator-gfci-wall-plate-1-gang-enerlites.html

That dimmer can handle up to 720W = 10 72W fixtures max.

I see no reason you can't keep your interior On/Off switch as is. Just keep the DC wires separate from the AC to avoid interference from the AC magnetic field.
Click to expand...

That's the dimmer I bought. I'm going to use just the dimmer circuit on it and use 3 standard switches to control 3 rows of 4 lights.
 
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garagelogician

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Platonic Solid said:
What you wrote sounds good.

I believe this is the dimmer you want: https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-
0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html with this wall plate: https://www.lightup.com/screwless-decorator-gfci-wall-plate-1-gang-enerlites.html

That dimmer can handle up to 720W = 10 72W fixtures max.

I see no reason you can't keep your interior On/Off switch as is. Just keep the DC wires separate from the AC to avoid interference from the AC magnetic field.
Click to expand...

Link to dimmer is broken, is it this one? https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html

Semi-related question: Is it possible to incorporate an occupancy/motion sensor to turn on a certain bank of lights when ambient light is low? It would be nice to have lights come on automatically when walking into the garage (when it is closed), or driving in at night...but not come on when the doors are open and it is daylight.
 
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HoosierBuddy

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I'm in the process of replacing all of the 2X4 fluorescent troffers in our office with 2X4 LED panels. I went with these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N1FDCB7/?tag=atomicindus08-20

It is a massive upgrade over the old lights. They are brighter by far, the color is so much better, they are cheaper to operate, they don't require constant maintenance AND THE BIGGEST PLUS....they are completely quiet. The old lights gave off a constant buzz that was bad enough some people complained of headaches. The LED panels are completely silent.

What a massive improvement. Good luck with your shop lights. They should be awesome.

Phil
 
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Wrigley

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Platonic Solid said:
What you wrote sounds good.

I believe this is the dimmer you want: https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-
0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html with this wall plate: https://www.lightup.com/screwless-decorator-gfci-wall-plate-1-gang-enerlites.html

That dimmer can handle up to 720W = 10 72W fixtures max.

I see no reason you can't keep your interior On/Off switch as is. Just keep the DC wires separate from the AC to avoid interference from the AC magnetic field.
Click to expand...

So if a person were to use the on off function of this dimmer, are you saying the DC dimmer wires should be run away from the AC wires? If so what is a good distance to keep them seperated? How would a person keep them seperated in the box? Thanks.
 
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ShakeyPuddin55

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Well, I'm running into the same issue about having to run the dimmer wires separate from the 110V AC. I've read the same thing about possible interference from the AC being induced into the low voltage wires. I have 30 lights spanning over 5000 sq fit and the center top of my shop is over 18 feet high. Having to run separate conduit for the dimming circuit would be lots more time and money.
Some options I thought of is to try and get a 300V rated fire alarm wire that is shielded and run it in the same 1/2" EMT conduit. I may do this on one bank of lights for a test.
The other option is just to tie wrap the low voltage dimmer wires on top of the conduit. Sure would be ugly but I don't want to run into any issues with the LED drivers. Has anyone installed these that can speak on this issue?
 
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cybrdyke

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ShakeyPuddin55 said:
Well, I'm running into the same issue about having to run the dimmer wires separate from the 110V AC. I've read the same thing about possible interference from the AC being induced into the low voltage wires. I have 30 lights spanning over 5000 sq fit and the center top of my shop is over 18 feet high. Having to run separate conduit for the dimming circuit would be lots more time and money.
Some options I thought of is to try and get a 300V rated fire alarm wire that is shielded and run it in the same 1/2" EMT conduit. I may do this on one bank of lights for a test.
The other option is just to tie wrap the low voltage dimmer wires on top of the conduit. Sure would be ugly but I don't want to run into any issues with the LED drivers. Has anyone installed these that can speak on this issue?
Click to expand...

Seeing as how the dimming circuit is low voltage, it's not required to be in any conduit or raceway, unless you have some crazy local code saying otherwise. This allows you to run the dimming circuits in a different pattern than you run the power circuits.
Another option is to use MC-LED cable such as this:
MC-LED%E2%84%A2-LIGHTING-CABLE-COPPER-CONDUCTOR-THHNTHWN-2-INNERS1.png

It's UL listed, even with power and low voltage together in one jacket.
If it's better for you to run both power and control together in one EMT conduit, then use 16 or 18 TFN, as it has a 600v rating, same as your power ratings. I've never had an interference problem on a 0-10VDC dimming circuit, so I wouldn't sweat having them in the same conduit. It's no different than having them together in the MC cable.
Good luck,
CD
 
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Wrigley

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Thanks, I did watch the howpeculiar video and it appeared he ran them in the same conduit. I was trying to pause and count number of conductors but could not really tell. He was demonstrating the dimming though and I did not see any other wires outside of the conduit. I would be interested to hear how he is getting along. I will actually be running in wall with romex for power so having the dc separated should not be a big deal for me but at some point I would expect the romex and dc run to intersect somewhere. I did not know if there was a best practice for this application. Thanks again for the info.
 
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cybrdyke

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Wrigley said:
at some point I would expect the romex and dc run to intersect somewhere.
Click to expand...

They'll meet in the dimmer switch box and in the flat panel wiring box, unless you decide to run the dimmer circuit differently than the power circuit.
CD
 
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Wrigley

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Understood. I was speaking in general out in the ceiling. Maybe the interference from the AC being induced into the low voltage is a non issue. Sounds like it might be. I have not started yet but would like to do it correctly the first time. Since I will be running Romex for power I could run the DC wires say one rafter away from the romex if that would negate the possible magnetic field problem some have talked about. Thanks
 
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howpeculiar

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jjscott,
I have two sets of 8 LED panels using a 0-10V dimmable balast on each. You can easily wire them the way you want. Since I ran conduit, I used low voltage bell wire for my Violet and Grey wires (the control signals). Use whatever correctly sized Line, Nuetral and Ground conductors. I ran the bell wire right in the same conduit, and I have no flicker issues at all. Since you are not actually driving anything with the dimming circuit, you can wire an awful lot of lights to them exactly how you wanted. This works nicely. If you also want to setup a three way switch, you can do that as well, but the Grey/Violet only come from the switch with the dimmer on it. I used dimmers from LeGrande, but htere are many of them out there.
 
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Wrigley

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Howpeculiar what size bell wire did you use?
Also, I watched your mounting video again. I just bought a single light from light up that is very similar to yours but not as many lumens, I think it has 10400. Anyway on your fixture where you mounted the brackets I am assuming that the threaded holes that you screwed the mounts to came with the fixture? It was not part of the mounting pacakage you bought? Reason I ask is I have a hole in the same area as yours but mine is not threaded.
 
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Platonic Solid

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howpeculiar said:
jjscott,
I have two sets of 8 LED panels using a 0-10V dimmable balast on each. You can easily wire them the way you want. Since I ran conduit, I used low voltage bell wire for my Violet and Grey wires (the control signals). Use whatever correctly sized Line, Nuetral and Ground conductors. I ran the bell wire right in the same conduit, and I have no flicker issues at all. Since you are not actually driving anything with the dimming circuit, you can wire an awful lot of lights to them exactly how you wanted. This works nicely. If you also want to setup a three way switch, you can do that as well, but the Grey/Violet only come from the switch with the dimmer on it. I used dimmers from LeGrande, but htere are many of them out there.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Maybe it's only an issue on really long runs like over 100ft. To be perfectly clear, when you say dimmable ballast I assume you mean the dimmable driver that is in the fixture which has the 2 dimming control wires (violet and grey).
 
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quattro_sinko

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Wrigley

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Platonic Solid said:
I don't think it's a non-issue or fixture manufacturers like EATON (Cooper, Metalux) wouldn't recommend Class 2 wiring (link).
Click to expand...

Platonic Solid thanks for the link. If I understood the link correctly I just need to keep 1/4 inch distance to avoid interference. That will be very doable in my installation with Romex and a seperated run for the dimming. Sounds like it’s working out for Howpeculiar but I have to run a seperate line anyway so will not be a problem, especially since mine will be behind drywall.
 
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Platonic Solid

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howpeculiar said:
...Since you are not actually driving anything with the dimming circuit, you can wire an awful lot of lights to them exactly how you wanted. ...
Click to expand...
It's important to note that this statement is true only if the dimmer is used for dimming exclusively and not for ON/OFF operation = no HOT and NEUTRAL connected to the dimmer switch. I suspect most installations (howpeculiar's included) prefer ON/OFF at the dimmer switch, thus the max qty of fixtures on the dimmer = dimmer wattage rating / fixture wattage. (Link to LumeGen dimmer wiring instruction PDF)

Example:
Lighup Dimmer (link) = 6A * 120V = 720W Max Load.

720W / 80W (randomly selected fixture wattage) = 9 (Max 80W fixtures Qty per dimmer with ON/OFF operation)
I'd suggest staying with 7 or 8 fixtures max in above example to build in some safety factor.
 
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Platonic Solid

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Wrigley said:
... If I understood the link correctly I just need to keep 1/4 inch distance to avoid interference. ...
Click to expand...
I believe you are correct. I am not an electrician and would love to hear from some experienced electricians on this issue. Since they obviously sell FMC for this purpose, as CD posted, it must be acceptable and functional in some applications. I suspect length of run is the controlling factor, but haven't been able to find anything to detail what length that would be.

My primary focus is military fixtures which must comply with very low EMI requirements. One method I use to limit EMI is never running AC and DC lines in close proximity and physically parallel to each other.
 
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howpeculiar

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Yes, the balast in the light fixture is what provides teh dimming function, and I believe is just a PWM modulator of some sort. The frequency is quick though, has not been noticable.

I bought standard 18 AWG bell wire, mine was red/white sheethed, and was not terribly expensive. 18AWG is more than plenty here. I believe that some fixtures may be more sensitive tot eh 60Hz pickup that will happen when the wires are run togheter, but mine did not seem to be.

On the mounting, I bought the surface mount bracket kits, which were just two folded bits of metal and some bolts. The bolts went into threaded inserts that already were in the fixture. Not all LED fixtures can be mounted close, some need more circulation for cooling, check with the manufacturer there! I know these Aleo units could mount both surface, dangle on chains (which they include) or use pendant boxes.

As for how many on the control lines, yes, a LOT, for how many on the switch, make sure you don't overload it. The switches have a HUGE heatsink built in as well. I was just saying that the 0-10V circuit is not your limit. I used 8 which put me square in safe rating for both the switch and the other 3 way switch I used. I did run 12 AWG, but only because I had it.

As for adding the junction boxes, I could not for the life of me figure out a better way to wire everything, run conduit and be up the scaffold. Breaking the wires out into those boxes gave me a chance to mount the lights, and then deal with the wiring. Not much more work, and made the conduit super easy to run.
 
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cybrdyke

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With common flat panels, it's pretty routine that you can put 40 or more on a 0-10VDC dimmer circuit. Each situation varies, and fixture specs are not all the same, so YMMV. If you are using lots of controllers, sensors, etc. then there are other considerations that will lower the number.
CD
 
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ShakeyPuddin55

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Wrigley

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howpeculiar said:
On the mounting, I bought the surface mount bracket kits, which were just two folded bits of metal and some bolts. The bolts went into threaded inserts that already were in the fixture. Not all LED fixtures can be mounted close, some need more circulation for cooling, check with the manufacturer there! I know these Aleo units could mount both surface, dangle on chains (which they include) or use pendant boxes.

On the mounting, I bought the surface mount bracket kits, which were just two folded bits of metal and some bolts. The bolts went into threaded inserts that already were in the fixture. Not all LED fixtures can be mounted close, some need more circulation for cooling, check with the manufacturer there! I know these Aleo units could mount both surface, dangle on chains (which they include) or use pendant boxes.

Looks like Lightup now has the pendant mount. I dont think I am interested in that but see a possibility to modify it to surface mount. I will have to investigate it more. I did notice that the light is a little heavier on one side than the other so your hangers would probably work better being at both ends. I watched another one of your videos on youtube and got an "ah hah". Those nut inserts you were using for ceiling mounting should work for the 80 watt fixture I bought and the mounting bracket that you used should work I would think. Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
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howpeculiar

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No problem! Once mounted, I could pull pretty hard on those fittings with no issues! I do have one bracket into wood, but the other was always into tin. I was really happy with the nut-serts, and they are very inexpensive.
 
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Wrigley

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garagelogician said:
Link to dimmer is broken, is it this one? https://www.lightup.com/led-dimmer-switch-0-10v-single-3-way-mini-paddle-and-slider-lumegen.html

Semi-related question: Is it possible to incorporate an occupancy/motion sensor to turn on a certain bank of lights when ambient light is low? It would be nice to have lights come on automatically when walking into the garage (when it is closed), or driving in at night...but not come on when the doors are open and it is daylight.
Click to expand...

I was looking for something like you described and found this: https://beeslighting.com/lutron-occupancy-sensor/p/MS-Z101-WH. Not sure if it works with this light but would be interested if someone has used it.
 
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Wrigley

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garagelogician said:
That looks perfect, should work great with any 0-10v dimmable panels or bulbs. I looked though the documentation and didn't see any load rating though. Anyone know?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I am no electrician but did find in technical doc on same site it says max capacity is 8 A electronic fluorescent ballasts or LED drivers. That says 8 amps total to me, it goes on to say the current source compliant to IEC 60629 annex e2, I have no idea about that part? Maybe an electrician can enlighten us on that.
 
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garagelogician

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Wrigley said:
I am no electrician but did find in technical doc on same site it says max capacity is 8 A electronic fluorescent ballasts or LED drivers. That says 8 amps total to me, it goes on to say the current source compliant to IEC 60629 annex e2, I have no idea about that part? Maybe an electrician can enlighten us on that.
Click to expand...
I must have missed that part. So this should be perfect for up to twelve 72 watt fixtures with a little extra headroom. That's definitely the switch I need then. Thanks for the heads up and the link!

Edit: I did a quick Google search and it appears that standard is for the current draw of the ballast or LED driver. 2mA is the maximum current draw per fixture. So if the control is rated for 50 mA, it can control up to 25 fixtures.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 
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