Stealth JIS hiding in cheap screwdriver/bit sets?

Danglerb · Dec 22, 2017

I say JIS, but might be DIN 5260, which is an improved backwards compatible standard. Snooping around looking for JIS screwdrivers I found a thread on the Goldwing forum that said the 32 pc $8 set of HF screwdrivers don't mention it, but the PH bits fit JIS screws just fine. This has me wondering if some of the cheap manufacturers have drifted to the DIN 5260 standard, but don't say anything to avoid license issues.

I love a puzzle so I plan to eyeball some of the tips next time I am in HF or other places with bits and drivers and see if any have the characteristics of JIS or DIN 5260 (57 deg angle on tip sides, and no taper to the engagement parts).

I would link to the HF set Goldwing forum mentioned, but HF changes vendors all the time and what was true six months ago may have changed, best to look at what they have now.

earlthegoat2 · Dec 22, 2017

A regular Phillips can work. In fact it even seems like it fits just fine to the average untrained ape.

Lot of buzz lately on JIS compatible whatsits....

Danglerb · Dec 22, 2017

A regular PH on a JIS doesn't fully engage as the tip bottoms out, ends up with a lot of damages screws.

OTOH JIS screwdrivers work fine on a standard Phillips, as long as you keep the driver straight, fit is too tight for any angle.

bwringer · Dec 22, 2017

I have a set of name brand JIS screwdrivers (Pratt-Read). Once you've experienced the difference it's pretty obvious.

However, I've also noticed that most screwdrivers made in Taiwan or China also fit JIS screws just fine.

Some of the cheeseball El Cheapo screwdrivers at Horror Fright are actually astonishingly good. I don't know how, I don't know why. It doesn't make any sense. I've had two sets of the ones with the ugly clear yellow handles with black motorcycle grips. About $5 a set on sale.

earlthegoat2 · Dec 22, 2017

bwringer said:
I have a set of name brand JIS screwdrivers (Pratt-Read). Once you've experienced the difference it's pretty obvious.

However, I've also noticed that most screwdrivers made in Taiwan or China also fit JIS screws just fine.

Some of the cheeseball El Cheapo screwdrivers at Horror Fright are actually astonishingly good. I don't know how, I don't know why. It doesn't make any sense. I've had two sets of the ones with the ugly clear yellow handles with black motorcycle grips. About $5 a set on sale.

What Pratt Read set is that?

bwringer · Dec 22, 2017

earlthegoat2 said:
What Pratt Read set is that?

I got them years ago from McMaster-Carr -- just basic black plastic handles with gold lettering. You don't get to choose a brand at McMaster -- you get what they send you. In this case, it was Pratt-Read.

Right now, it looks like they might be Vessel. Which is also very, very nice.

rpcraft · Dec 22, 2017

Most Japanese car tool sets (a few have them, Subaru for one) have a JIS screw driver in them. Also any tool kits from a Japanese motorcycle will usually include a JIS bit, most are like an interchangeable set with a straight and JIS but that go into a socketed handle. I'm not 100 % sure where the physical difference is with the bits but I know the JIS screws are suppose to have a dot on the head of the screw near where you insert the screwdriver and from my experience JIS screwdrivers seem to work universally. I work on enough bikes to where I just got tired of not paying attention and stripping out carb screws and bought a set of Vessel and Hozan JIS screwdrivers for about 30 bucks and that is pretty much all I use in the shop now days across the bikes, cars, and trucks I fiddle with.

gdpolk · Dec 22, 2017

I have the bit set from Harbor Freight and yes there are some bits in there that fit JIS heads. They are not ground with super precise tolerances but work and work better than a cheap Phillips driver in a JIS head. I've even used them on some of my very expensive 10m rifles without any adverse affects.

earlthegoat2 · Dec 23, 2017

Yeah I went straight to the McMaster website after reading your first post and saw the same drivers which appears to be Vessel.

I have a set of Pratt Reads but no JIS ones and I would like some.

I really don’t need JIS anything. I work on a lot of Asian equipment and as long as your careful, the screw is not to tight, and your driver has a grippy tip, usually you can get away with it. I’ve never stripped out one myself but I have tried to remove already stripped out screws. Probably would have had better luck with a JIS driver on that stripped head which is why I have a few. I just want some Pratt Reads to go with my other set.

bwringer · Dec 23, 2017

Having true JIS screwdrivers does make a difference when working on Asian stuff -- it's well worth having a set around, or at least scaring up some bits.

Even if you manage to get by with a Phillips, you'll inevitably damage the fastener slightly, so it makes things a little less likely to go well the next time around.

I Googled around a good bit, and couldn't find any Pratt-Read JIS drivers out there. You can find listings showing the "black pearl" handles in "normal" screwdrivers, but they're discontinued. There are some live listings for Pratt-Read screwdriver sets featuring some cheesy-looking clear handles.

Danglerb · Dec 23, 2017

Yellow handle with black rubber, maybe these https://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/2-philips-x-4-blade-screwdriver.html

Sine Swept · Dec 23, 2017

No regrets having the right tool for the job!

Danglerb · Dec 24, 2017

Tired of "research" I ordered a Vessel bit set off Amazon, $9.70 but shipped from japan free and slow. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VB89GE/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Paco Pena · Dec 24, 2017

I just grind a wee bit off the tip of the phillips screwdriver and it works just fine for me.

Paco

cheechi · Dec 24, 2017

link

one review from 5 years ago is the only mention of Japan or JIS, there is no mention of any DIN standard

The screws that look like Phillips on old Japanese motorcycles are actually JIS standard. Phillips screwdrivers don't fit JIS screwheads well. But these screwdrivers fit them perfectly and work OK in true Phillips screws also. I looked at JIS standard screwdrivers and they are quite expensive so these are a welcome alternative. The straight blade screwdrivers are well made also.

I believe this is the set you want to look at. Others may also be JIS, but to your point this set has been the same part # for at least 5 years based on the age of the reviews and is often recommended here.

I took a look over at KC Tools to see if they had any sets that explicitly stated they were either of the two mentioned standards, they don't so I sent them a message to find out if they knew or could label them as such. No info on the Wiha US page either, as that's what I'd buy if they were offered.

SO sells 3 JIS drivers each of them described as 'miniature' driver I doubt any is the equivalent of P2 let alone larger. My guess is PH00 PH0 PH1, as I haven't seen a JIS PH000 from any brand.

this link might also be useful in explaining why it's hard to find drivers labeled as JIS.

Mechanical Noise · Dec 24, 2017

I have the set Cheechi pictured and they fit JIS screws well. They're sold as Pittsburgh Pro. I also have a set of different handled inexpensive Chinese made screwdrivers I bought at a Sears Outlet store which seem just as good. In both cases the screwdriver shanks are stamped "CHROME VANADIUM". The shanks look identical and likely either came from the same source or are made to the same pattern.

markw365 · Dec 25, 2017

I've had great luck with the Vessel Megadora screwdrivers. Picked up a full set last time I was in Japan. They definitely fit much better on my Miata, Honda and Subaru.

Mark

TigerDude · Dec 25, 2017

Vessel says it no longer makes "JIS" screwdrivers, and that the JIS standard was abandoned for screwdriver several years ago because all manufacturers were beating it. I think any quality modern driver will work, certainly any German or Japanese: Vessel, KTC, Wera, Wiha, PBS, etc.

Mechanical Noise · Dec 25, 2017

Danglerb said:
I This has me wondering if some of the cheap manufacturers have drifted to the DIN 5260 standard, but don't say anything to avoid license issues.

Speaking of licensing, I'm wondering if anyone who wants to call their screwdriver a Phillips screwdriver is required to make their screwdrivers to the EXACT Phillips pattern.

cheechi · Dec 25, 2017

Got a reply back from Tekton and their drivers are not JIS compatible. So basically that HF set, Vessel or Hozan from Amazon are 'known' JIS drivers.

Tiger, I read that too, but I think you have to interpret some of the engrish. They are saying that all Japanese cross point screwdrivers are at or better than the JIS standard. You often see sockets and drivers labeled as meeting or exceeding ASME torque specs, etc etc. Same thing, JIS has been effectively replaced with DIN 5260 from what I can tell, and that's the reason brands are not using the term anymore. this link explains some of it better. But to your point nearly all Phillips drivers in the US are Phillips and NOT JIS compatible.

I am pretty sure that Phillips is something that had to be licensed but has been around so long that it might not be anymore. I don't know for sure on that one. Pozi still does I think. May be why it's never really been used in the US.

Mark, how comfortable are the Vessels? Can you compare them to either SO hard handles, Wera soft finish, Klein, or something common in the US? The main reason I reached out to KC and to Tekton is the handle. This thread is all about the business end, but there are so many places to get good drivers that the handle almost becomes the more important buying decision.

Mechanical Noise · Dec 26, 2017

cheechi said:
I am pretty sure that Phillips is something that had to be licensed but has been around so long that it might not be anymore. I don't know for sure on that one.

I don't know specifically, but I'd think the patents on the Phillips design ran out years ago. But the trademark will run forever so I'm thinking that if some manufacturer wants to label their screwdrivers "PHILLIPS" then whoever owns the rights to the name can make it a condition that the tips get manufactured to the original Phillips specs.

Seems the screwdrivers I'm happyist with are labeled P1 or P2 or whatever. Phillips, not so much.

cheechi · Dec 26, 2017

Probably right.

Got a reply back from KC tools. You're going to love this. I searched their site for 'JIS' and 'Japan' and got nothing pointing me towards JIS drivers, but check this out

Specifically optimised for Asian PH-screws

superautobacs · Dec 26, 2017

TigerDude said:
Vessel says it no longer makes "JIS" screwdrivers, and that the JIS standard was abandoned for screwdriver several years ago because all manufacturers were beating it. I think any quality modern driver will work, certainly any German or Japanese: Vessel, KTC, Wera, Wiha, PBS, etc.

Stealth JIS hiding in cheap screwdriver/bit sets?

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