M18 Mid Torque or M12 Stubby for suspension work ?

MrNatural · Jan 31, 2019

Hi,

I just work on my family cars/vans. Which would be a better choice for under chassis work? I certainly encounter rusty fastners. Do you ever find that the mid-torque is just too physically large to get to some underchassis fasteners, say for example caliper bolts.

If so, would I be better off getting a m12 stubby and accepting that some ( many ? ) bolts will have to be cracked with a bar first. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

pelletman · Jan 31, 2019

Get both, they are both great for different things

mackie232005 · Jan 31, 2019

The M12 is worth its weight in Gold! Ever since I’ve gotten one, I haven’t had to use my m18! Even takes the lug nuts off of an 450 box truck!

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MrNatural · Jan 31, 2019

Thanks. Have you encountered any bolts that the m12 couldn’t crack?

mackie232005 · Jan 31, 2019

MrNatural said:
Thanks. Have you encountered any bolts that the m12 couldn’t crack?

Not yet

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Tonyuk · Jan 31, 2019

I use the compact M18 1/2 the majority of the time.

The mid-torque is massive for the power it puts out, compared to a air tool with similar power. You'll probably find it difficult to fit it in a good few places.

Good tool though if it does fit.

Formula · Jan 31, 2019

I have the m12 stubby, the 1/2" mid torque and the 1/2 high torque.

I wouldn't even think about grabbing the m12 stubby for suspension work, unless you're working on a matchbox car. Don't get me wrong, it has decent power for what it is. I use mine mainly for under hood engine work.

The 1/2 mid torque is much better for suspension work, but there are times I still have to run and grab the high torque.

aussiek2000 · Jan 31, 2019

I use my 3/8 M18 compact and mid torque for suspension work. There are still times I have to drag out the 1/2 air gun when things are really rusted

Mr_B · Jan 31, 2019

Formula said:
I have the m12 stubby, the 1/2" mid torque and the 1/2 high torque.

I wouldn't even think about grabbing the m12 stubby for suspension work, unless you're working on a matchbox car. Don't get me wrong, it has decent power for what it is. I use mine mainly for under hood engine work.

The 1/2 mid torque is much better for suspension work, but there are times I still have to run and grab the high torque.

I'm with this guy, I have the 1/2" IR and even that not always up to suspension/chassis work . I got work in timely fashion and when in shop I got airline right at the bay so use it as gives me a tool smaller than the battery stubby yet hits harder than the battery mid 1/2" .
I wouldn't go stubby battery for your initial post intended use and more so if working on older rusty type stuff .You want the hardest hitting compact gun you can get and also will want decent extension range and swivel sockets to get most use out of a battery impact as even a mid torque is a lot of cocking about to get socket on fastener good, seeing lot of cammed out fastener heads these days where tech just gunning it half cocked till socket cams out and just call it good, not great for customer as sometimes too loose and not great for next tech as if tight seized the cammed head won't hold any torque when trying remove it, getting this a lot on caliper bracket bolts and hub bearing bolts from sloppy work these days .

pbon · Jan 31, 2019

May depend on where you live. In NH, the roads are salted in winter and the undersides of cars suffer corrosion. A bolt originally torqued to 90 lbs may need a 400 lb or higher impact tonloosen. Or a breaker bar. If you are just DIYing and don’t mind using a breaker bar to break a bolt free before doing the rest with a less powerful impact, the stubby will work for you. I have the full range of impacts. I use the big one the least but it’s nice to have when you want it.

Shehzada · Jan 31, 2019

In terms of head size (dimensions) is the 3/8 m12 stubby more compact than 3/8 m18 compact?

I only have the m18 high torque 1/2 with friction ring. I love it but want to purchase something that with get behind calipers

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Tallpilot · Jan 31, 2019

Part of this discussion has to do with hammering time. Many consider it successful if the fastener spins off regardless of how long it takes. I hammer about 10 seconds then go get a bigger impact unless it won’t fit.

I usually start with the mid torque but use my Nano if it won’t fit. I certainly wouldn’t recommend the M12 as a first and only impact but I don’t own one either since the Nano is far stronger for the same size.

2ndGearRubber · Jan 31, 2019

I have a 3/8 m12 impact. It regularly struggles with any bolt above 12mm. M8x1 caliper bolts also stop it. It's nice for reassembly, but you're not pulling struts with ANY 3/8 anything around here. I have to assume those using m12 stuff to do suspension work, live in Texas or cali.

MrNatural · Jan 31, 2019

Thank you all very much for your prompt and considered replies: there is much wisdom there.

In pragmatic terms, my thoughts seem to be going this way at the moment. I work from a driveway. The cars up on ramps and there are bolts up there that have not been off in years ( we certainly salt heavily, though not slurry.)

Is it perhaps going to be more realistic to purchase a portable compressor and nano 1/2 air impact and just get it done? If so what compressor and what Nano? In the UK our readily available portable compressors seem a lot more modest in size than those stateside.

Or: is the cordless sweet spot perhaps: just enough power to get it done, and, just small enough to fit in there: The M18 1/2 compact?

I guess that I am thinking that a portable compressor/ 8ft airline/ nano 1/2 impact is still a portable solution?

dacan23 · Jan 31, 2019

The M12 Fuel Stubby on paper is the same power as the M18 Fuel 3/8 (2754) & 1/2 (2759) compacts, and more power than the old M12 Fuel 2454. For any large bolt thats been on there for a while in the rust belt you really need the mid or high torque. The mid torque is bigger than the older compact Fuel M18s, but a swivel extension or socket should get you into most places.

JVB · Jan 31, 2019

I only use my air for my nailers and to dust things off anymore.

I work from home on various projects. I would recommend the large high torque 1/2” drive as well as a stubby cordless 3/8” drive. I have found that with these 2 I can complete all tasks and not have any size or power constraints. If price is an issue and you already have a compressor by all means the 1/2” air impact will be your cheapest option.

I have switched all my impacts and ratchets to cordless and have 0 regrets.

Professional Tool User · Jan 31, 2019

As long as nothing is seized and you don't have to use a swivel, you should be fine with a M12 stubby. The mid torque might not fare well against obstructions and still might not have the extra power needed to lower your chances of pulling out a torch, breaker bar, and air hammer. Bottom line, if it is really seized, you'll want a full sized 1/2 dr air impact gun, breaker bar, air hammer, and torch. As for stubby air impact, they're great for tight spaces, but they are not powerful enough if something is really seized.

ChrisLS8 · Jan 31, 2019

It depends what you're working on. For sub and compact cars to maybe midsize I'd use the stubby for most things.

I can so far do every single bolt with the exception of the axle nuts with mine on my Nissan and with ease for the most part. I just installed a prototype set of coilovers and adjustable control arms and it didn't bust a sweat

Mohawk Dave · Jan 31, 2019

Unless you are rusty I'd get the M12 and sometimes you may need to break by hand...nbd if you are a weekend warrior.

I have all the M18 and M12 stuff and very seldom break out the M18. (My off road rig excluded as there's 1/2" stovers everywhere, but that's apples and oranges)

MrNatural · Jan 31, 2019

Thank you to everyone. What a depth of practical experience, I am grateful to you all.

Despite having maintained my own vehicles for decades I have never actually used an impact: so this will be a great help to me, in terms of making work easier and quicker.

Because my vehicles are known and limited in numbers, difficult bolts are either replaced or where loctite isn’t required, then refitted with just a hint of ceramic anti-seize. So next time is easier.

If this was a year or so ago, I think my choice would have been an M18 1/2 compact, with an option of possibly adding an M18 high torque at a later date. That M18 1/2 compact sounds sweet for the vast majority of chassis work (Especially on replaced fasteners the second time around.)

Today: it looks like the m12 compact is a game changer as it gets the available torque, in many cases, right onto the bolt without torque-robbing swivels/extensions. It also allows adding the M12 ratchets as an affordable option at some point.

Research shows that the 6Ah battery can make the difference between go/no-go. Noting that: will the bigger anvil, and higher kinetic energy of 1/2 impact sockets make a similar go/no-go difference over 3/8.

Impact sockets, including stubby nano-sockets are not expensive: If it’s to be an M12 stubby impact, backed up with my 3ft breaker bar: should I go 3/8 or 1/2 ( and live with the fact that 1/2 may be less than ideal for any work within the fwd engine bays?

My vehicles ( not including axle bolts ) tend to max out at 19mm bolts or the equivalent eTorx for chassis work.

Yarpo · Jan 31, 2019

MrNatural said:
Or: is the cordless sweet spot perhaps: just enough power to get it done, and, just small enough to fit in there: The M18 1/2 compact?

This is a great gun, but its certainly not enough for "suspension work" in the rust belt. You can do brake caliper slide bolts with this, as well as probably most brake caliper bracket bolts, but you'll never do axle nuts with it, and rarely would you be able to do control arms, tie-rod or swaybar links. Besides, even tho its a great gun I'd replace this gun with the M12 stubby just for its size, its kind of old and obsolete at this point. For suspension stuff I use my mid torque most of the time, and even then there's times I wish I had the high torque, tho I've just opted for breaking things free with my really long wrenches and running them out with a gun or my M12 ratchet, almost easier than fighting a big gun into places.

PoorOwner · Jan 31, 2019

The brake caliper bolts are usually going to be accessible with a breaker bar, as a similar sized torque wrench is used to torque it. Most are not actually that tight.

If you are using an impact wrench it may need a swivel socket bent at an angle to reach it the bolt. You lose a lot of torque by doing that. I had the older M18 fuel and was not able to loosen it.

A Breaker bar gets it turning in a couple seconds. My cars only have 2 caliper mounting bolts per axle.

I have replaced my M12 and M18 fuel impacts with just one M12 1/2" stubby (with a realistic expectation that it is a SMALL tool), Why I chose 1/2", because I go in with both breaker bar and the impact, I won't need to go back and grab a 3/8 socket.

visionguru · Feb 1, 2019

MrNatural said:
Hi,

I just work on my family cars/vans. Which would be a better choice for under chassis work? I certainly encounter rusty fastners. Do you ever find that the mid-torque is just too physically large to get to some underchassis fasteners, say for example caliper bolts.

If so, would I be better off getting a m12 stubby and accepting that some ( many ? ) bolts will have to be cracked with a bar first. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I don't quite get it: accepting loosening bolts first with a bar? What can you possibly benefit from such a tool?
You could just go ahead and remove the bolt with a ratchet or wrench already. Let's say: it takes 1min, with the impact 5 seconds. It's meaningless for a DIYer.

Under the chassis, I found that clearance seems not a big problem even for bigger guns, because there is plenty of room to use extensions/swivels.

I'd rather buy tools that can extend my ability. Get the high torque impact first, then mid torque. Forget about 12v tools, not very useful for any bolts larger than m8. They may be great to speed things up on a assembly line, but for DIY, useless.

Mr_B · Feb 1, 2019

This is why we still use high end nano air tools in the shop, we got compact nano size and over 650ft/lb in the one tool which does well for most stuff except the real crusty mess .
Indeed you want things that expand ability, The 12v impact is 1st release, I would be waiting for a gen 2 or 3 before buying into that .
Using impacts is not purely a speed thing, big reason is the impact tool used wisely removes things you bust or damage by bar or simply don't have the swing arc use a bar .
As soon as you use extensions and swivels you lost massive impacting power so bigger tool needs some reserve to counter this .
reality is current smaller battery impacts still on the weak side be all round useful and big ones too bulky.
They still great tools and can do a lot but not yet a 1 tool solution .

Tonyuk · Feb 1, 2019

Shehzada said:
In terms of head size (dimensions) is the 3/8 m12 stubby more compact than 3/8 m18 compact?

I only have the m18 high torque 1/2 with friction ring. I love it but want to purchase something that with get behind calipers

Sent from my mobile device

The M12 is shorter but a bit fatter overall. However it's more compact especially with you take the difference in battery size into account between the two lines.

MrNatural said:
Thank you all very much for your prompt and considered replies: there is much wisdom there.

In pragmatic terms, my thoughts seem to be going this way at the moment. I work from a driveway. The cars up on ramps and there are bolts up there that have not been off in years ( we certainly salt heavily, though not slurry.)

Is it perhaps going to be more realistic to purchase a portable compressor and nano 1/2 air impact and just get it done? If so what compressor and what Nano? In the UK our readily available portable compressors seem a lot more modest in size than those stateside.

Or: is the cordless sweet spot perhaps: just enough power to get it done, and, just small enough to fit in there: The M18 1/2 compact?

I guess that I am thinking that a portable compressor/ 8ft airline/ nano 1/2 impact is still a portable solution?

Great solution in theory, however in practice i think you'll be sorely disappointed.

Smaller compressors are great for blowing up tyres, blowguns, staple guns etc.. However since an impact has a constant flow while the trigger is held you'll deplete the pressure very quickly. Therefore if you don't loosen the fastener in the first few seconds it'll likely not come off since the tool is just getting weaker and weaker.

I wouldn't want anything less than 14-15 CFM and a 100L tank for running an air impact, and even then its just enough imo.

Electrics are great for the DIY since they'll always produce the same amount of power until the battery dies, however the con of this is the physical size of the tool.

I would start with the M18 1/2 compact, a kit with the tool and battery + charger ideally. Anything too tight for it loosen with a breaker bar then finish it with the tool.

Mine will take off probably 80% of the fasteners i come across in work off, including wheels pretty much every day so long as they were torqued correctly.

Mr_B · Feb 1, 2019

I guess if you have a shed/workshop near your drive a wheeled compressor could be an option, it brings a lot of capability with it and with 240V UK mains you can run a modern 3hp motor from 3pin plug no drama and via extension if suitable gauge but best kept minimal . 100ltr tank be best but 50 would do and if buy one hitting 155psi and tweak it to good 160 on the cut off it have pretty good reserve and tool performance .
Really depends on depth and volume work you intending do but air hammer and proper nano impact like ns1600f are game changers in making impossible not just possible but dead quick and saves injury/damage over faffing about .
Really only you going know what best for you use and work area scenario, battery is simple but it got limitations and doesn't bring the vast capability air can .
If going battery you certainly don't want the 12v as first purchase .

f121 · Feb 1, 2019

Maybe consider a 18v high torque and a 12v stubby? What battery ranges are you already bought into? I use a makita dtw1002z which undoes EVERYTHING but is too heavy to use all-day, a smaller makita which undoes most stuff but runs out of puff at times, and a dewalt 3/8 which is just a nut runner. Working on a driveway, battery tools make life a lot easier than air, and you dont have to worry about compressor noise if you have neighbours (nothing like forgetting to turn off the compressor and it kicking in at 3am to charge up).

I’m convinced there is a case for a nut runner and a breaker bar, in a lot of cases I crack something loose and then use the 3/8” impact to spin the bolt out - things like cam covers, fender(wing) bolts, etc. It may be pointless but it feels like it saves me a bunch of time, which I am extremely short of.

MrNatural · Feb 3, 2019

“ The reality is current smaller battery impacts still on the weak side be all round useful and big ones too bulky. They still great tools and can do a lot but not yet a 1 tool solution.“

Many thanks to everyone that offered advise. I think the above comment sums up the state of the art at the moment. These smaller impacts are sometimes going to work as an impact wrench, and sometimes as a nut runner, and I guess that’s where we are on the evolution ladder: I grudgingly accept those limitations.

The M18 compact 1/2 or 3/8 seems a fine tool, though I feel it must be close in line for an upgrade: therefore now is probably not the time.

The M12 Stubby impact wrenches are state of the art at the moment, so now is a good time to get on that platform ( also like the ratchets and 1/4 impact as future expansion options.)

I think I will go for the M12 1/2 impact with 6Ah & 2ah batteries and then add a 3/8 ratchet when I can. I know that at least some of the time, this means it will be a nut-runner following the breaker bar. I am ok with that as that in itself is a great time saver.

The next step will of course be more power, and I will be giving a lot of thought to the option of a compressor and air impacts. Thanks again to everyone for their excellent advise.

visionguru · Feb 3, 2019

MrNatural said:
....
The M12 Stubby impact wrenches are state of the art at the moment, so now is a good time to get on that platform ( also like the ratchets and 1/4 impact as future expansion options.)
....

You are buying too much into Milwaukee's often misleading marketing claims.
The M12 stubby has similar power as older 12v products. That's why Milwaukee only mentioned "nut busting" torque, not real torque.

Based on my experience with 600ft-lb -ish nut busting mid torque impacts, the M12 stubby maybe good for low torque bolts in the engine bay and work as a nut runner, but it's definitely too weak for anything that needs an impact to remove, such as suspension/brake bolts.

DFB · Feb 3, 2019

Ya just remember the tagline with ALL models is "UP TO" whatever the rated the torque claimed for that specific tool. Doesn't actually mean you get that maximum performance with all standards. You can find online youtube tests show the variable's such as nut size and thread count to attain certain values.

Good observation on M18 compacts whether or not there will be any current upgrade anyone's guess right now. I often tend to think more usable power can sourced through a M18 tool though, and that's just my opinion on it.

I still use a 2655B M18 compact wrench and I like it. Has served me well over the years and the newer Mid Torque has become especially handy but all do have their max point I have easily found out

As long as someone understands the limits of their tool choices they generally won't be disappointed. M12 stubby and a M12 ratchet overall are fine tools and a great place to start.

Yarpo · Feb 3, 2019

visionguru said:
You are buying too much into Milwaukee's often misleading marketing claims.
The M12 stubby has similar power as older 12v products. That's why Milwaukee only mentioned "nut busting" torque, not real torque.

Based on my experience with 600ft-lb -ish nut busting mid torque impacts, the M12 stubby maybe good for low torque bolts in the engine bay and work as a nut runner, but it's definitely too weak for anything that needs an impact to remove, such as suspension/brake bolts.

Unless theres an issue squeezing power outta the 12v stubby(250?) as opposed to the 18v compact(220?), he should have no issue with brake slides, but may have issues with some caliper bracket bolts. I use my 18v compact on both all the time and it works well. I agree with suspension as I stated above, pretty useless if hes in the rust belt.

ChrisLS8 · Feb 3, 2019

visionguru said:
I'd rather buy tools that can extend my ability. Get the high torque impact first, then mid torque. Forget about 12v tools, not very useful for any bolts larger than m8. They may be great to speed things up on a assembly line, but for DIY, useless.

That may have been the case in the past but my Stubby doesn't even break a sweat on lugs torqued to 120 ft lbs.
It won't suprise me to see stubby cordless compacts with over 500 ft lbs in the near future

2manytools · Feb 3, 2019

I have a 4runner in rust country. Did my front brakes a couple weeks ago, and doing rears today ironically. The M12 stubby took my lugs off, but just did not have enough to break my caliper bolts free. Then went to the M18 mid-torque, but that didn't do it. So onto the High-torque with a swivel. They came off with an impact, maybe 2. I really hoped I never needed the HTIW for my brakes, but every situation is different. Just super glad I had them all on hand.

I do always keep the 3/8 in my truck, as it should handle most work, especially side of the road kind of stuff.

I could almost see a new mid-torque coming out, which would be the best. HT is on gen2, so perhaps a little higher rated mid-torque is around the corner.

cajunfirehawk · Feb 3, 2019

I have both, YMMV (PS sold my big M18 impact, no need now)

mackie232005 · Feb 3, 2019

I Found this video by Deboss Garage to give a great comparison

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pioneer1 · Feb 3, 2019

Well, That Stubby is impressive. Still going back and forth on the Mid Torque or Stubby. :headscrat

visionguru · Feb 3, 2019

pioneer1 said:
Well, That Stubby is impressive. Still going back and forth on the Mid Torque or Stubby.

That's largely due to Milwaukee's misleading marketing. "250 ft-lb nut busting torque". It's real torque numbers shouldn't be much more than 150-ft lb.

The following are the "real" specs of M18 impacts:
M18 Compact 1/2" --- 220 ft-lb
M18 Mid Torque --- 450 ft-lb
M18 High Torque --- 1200 ft-lb

The stubby is impressive mostly because of it's compactness, not power. About 1" shorter than M18 Compact, but less powerful. The Mid Torque is about 3x more powerful, even the Mid Torque is not a guarantee for suspension work.

Yarpo · Feb 3, 2019

visionguru said:
That's largely due to Milwaukee's misleading marketing. "250 ft-lb nut busting torque". It's real torque numbers shouldn't be much more than 150-ft lb.

The following are the "real" specs of M18 impacts:
M18 Compact 1/2" --- 220 ft-lb
M18 Mid Torque --- 450 ft-lb
M18 High Torque --- 1200 ft-lb

The stubby is impressive mostly because of it's compactness, not power. About 1" shorter than M18 Compact, but less powerful. The Mid Torque is about 3x more powerful, even the Mid Torque is not a guarantee for suspension work.

Where you getting these numbers from, or whats this revelation with their marketing gimmicks. Got any sources?

DFB · Feb 3, 2019

In this Workshop Addict video they downgrade the actual torque of the stubby to about 175ft lbs.

There are also some interesting comments in it that relate to other threads on chrome plated sockets/accessories vs impact rated equipment.

f121 · Feb 3, 2019

visionguru said:
The stubby is impressive mostly because of it's compactness, not power. About 1" shorter than M18 Compact, but less powerful. The Mid Torque is about 3x more powerful, even the Mid Torque is not a guarantee for suspension work.

Its impressive because of what it undid, did you watch the video?

M18 Mid Torque or M12 Stubby for suspension work ?

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