c. 1920's Gray Tools Toronto Canada Socket Wrench Set

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

Thinking the nice shade of olive green on the box meant it was military, a friend of mine tipped me off to this early Gray Tools Toronto Canada socket wrench set being auctioned on eBay very inexpensively, and I grabbed it.

It’s 1/2-inch drive. The ratchet, No. 602, is female non-reversible with a removable (not push-through) drive plug. The sockets, which have a band of serious knurling, and no branding, are marked with sizes only. Two anomalies: the size marking on the 5/8” socket is stamped upside down, and the size marking on the 7/16” is stamped with a fractional hyphen (“7-16”) instead of a fractional slash mark, and it’s stamped sideways.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

Studying the set has been fun and I am not sure it's military.

First of all, it's too late for WWI. While Gray was established in 1912, that was Gray Manufacturing & Machine Company Limited and they were making steam and power pumps and special machinery. Their first hand tools catalog was printed in 1922, and while I don't have a glimpse inside, I'd be surprised if the sockets were forged. The US Army didn’t have any detachable socket wrenches in WWI, and I doubt the Canadians did.

On the other hand, I think it's way too early for WWII, because they are heavy-walled cold-forged and cold-broached sockets, and the ratchet is the pressed-steel type.

Speaking of the ratchet, I am thinking it may have been made by the Frank Mossberg Company.

Here it is between a Mossberg and a Blackhawk.

Mossberg made re-branded ratchets like this for Syracuse, Sears, Roebuck & Co, and many others, and it has a Mossberg type model number. Despite the military look of the stenciling, even the number on the box ("No 130") follows a Mossberg set numbering pattern. And the color of the box matches the olive on my c.1926 Mossberg Professional Edition set No. 82, linked here.

I could be wrong. Just doing some sophisticated spitballin' here. I'm not holding my breath, but I have contacted Gray Tools to request some 1922 catalog page scans, and to inquire if they have any other catalogs from the 1920's. We'll see what happens. Either way, whether Mossberg was the ratchet OEM or Gray made it in-house, I love the whole look of this set.

The decal on the top of the box matches the logo on the 1922 Gray Tools catalog.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

A few extra pics...

3baygarage · Apr 19, 2019

Congraytulations. That’s a pretty unique set. I was hoping to see it firsthand but it’s apparent you outbid me, so I’ll have to settle for a good writeup.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

3baygarage said:
Congraytulations. That’s a pretty unique set. I was hoping to see it firsthand but it’s apparent you outbid me, so I’ll have to settle for a good writeup.

Haha. Thanks, 3bay, and sorry about that. I guess it shows how little I shop on eBay that this is literally the first time that has happened to me and another GJ member, and that goes back to 2012! Finding other examples of early Gray tools is as difficult as finding information on early Gray tools.

twertsy · Apr 19, 2019

Really cool set Greg! So, rat from Moss and Milwaukee sockets?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

3baygarage · Apr 19, 2019

It’s just funny, definitely not the first time I happened to lose out to another member. Anyway, a couple years ago I scored a huge assortment of Gray socketry and other tools at a sale up in Niagara County, just a couple miles up the road from Lake Ontario. Later stuff,
nothing as old and cool as that set though.

3baygarage · Apr 19, 2019

twertsy said:
Really cool set Greg! So, rat from Moss and Milwaukee sockets?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I was wondering about a possible Mossberg connection, and the sockets being US made as well.

Millwrong · Apr 19, 2019

The folks at Gray are a friendly bunch, and I bet they'd be happy to tell you whatever they can about the set...:

http://www.graytools.com/contact/

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

twertsy said:
Really cool set Greg! So, rat from Moss and Milwaukee sockets?

Thanks. I didn't look into the sockets yet. As soon as I saw the rat, even before it was here, I thought it was possibly Mossberg and that's been my focus so far. The sockets don't compare well to Mossberg sockets of that era, I can tell you that. The knurling reminds me of Bog more than MTF, but I only have one MTF socket.

3baygarage said:
I was wondering about a possible Mossberg connection, and the sockets being US made as well.

If you missed it, I did some quickie comparison shots with a Mossberg and a Blackhawk upthread.

Millwrong said:
The folks at Gray are a friendly bunch, and I bet they'd be happy to tell you whatever they can about the set...

Good to know, Millwrong. As I said in post #2, I already used the contact form to reach out to them, so maybe I'll have some news and information to share after Easter.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 19, 2019

Here are some socket comparisons...

Pic 1 is a Gray and a Mossberg (from my No 82 Professional set). No similarities.

Pic 2 is the same two sockets, service openings.

Pic 3 is a Gray and an MFT. The MFT is machined. This is the only MFT socket I own. I don't know if the knurling on all sockets is light, like this, or this socket is worn down, but the knurling doesn't look as deep as the Gray.

Pic 4 is the same two sockets, service openings. They do look A LOT alike from this view.

Pic 5 is a Gray and a Bog. The knurling looks very similar to me. Taller socket, but that could be a year thing.

Pic 6 is the same two sockets, service openings.

woody 73 · Apr 19, 2019

Have a talk with he folks at Gray and maybe they can shed some more helpful information about any possible connections between Gray and Mossberg.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 20, 2019

As I said in post #2, and again in post #10, I already contacted them, Woody. Hopefully they'll get back to me next week.

2oolhound · Apr 22, 2019

Nice score! and thanks for the research!

Private Lugnutz · Apr 23, 2019

"Hello,

Thank you for the email below.

In response to your inquiry, please note there is no one remaining at the company with knowledge or history of the company dating that far back. The founding Gray family sold the company many years ago. As such, they are no longer involved in the business.

The original catalogues dating back to before the 1980's are not available.

Regards,
Gray Tools Canada Inc."

2oolhound · Apr 23, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
"The founding Gray family sold the company many years ago."

Wow! Sounds like a young person response. No romance there, why do I get the feeling it's only about the money and anything will be sacrificed to that end. Seems to be the way of the world today.
Alex Gray sold the company in 2012 and stayed on as chairman for a while so not really that "long ago". There was a post about it here on GJ at the time.

Oldtuleguy · Apr 23, 2019

Bummer

twertsy · Apr 23, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
"Hello,

Thank you for the email below.

In response to your inquiry, please note there is no one remaining at the company with knowledge or history of the company dating that far back. The founding Gray family sold the company many years ago. As such, they are no longer involved in the business.

The original catalogues dating back to before the 1980's are not available.

Regards,
Gray Tools Canada Inc."

At least they responded......try contacting MAC about such things.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Private Lugnutz · Apr 23, 2019

Needless to say, I was disappointed, but not shocked. As I said upthread, I wasn't holding my breath. I was a little confused, though, and I still am. The "Our story" page on their website, linked here, still includes a letter from Alex Gray, as the chairman and owner of the company. I'd also like to know how, if they don't have access to any catalogs before 1980, they have a cover of the 1922 catalog on their website, linked here. I followed up the letter with a phone call, but couldn't reach a human being, and ended up leaving a voice mail.

Oldtuleguy · Apr 23, 2019

It would not shock me if they had the old cats somewhere.

twertsy · Apr 23, 2019

Oldtuleguy said:
It would not shock me if they had the old cats somewhere.

I agree wholeheartedly. They are ALL just lazy. I've contacted virtually all of them and if they replied, it was similar to what Greg got.

I don't know if I told you guys this but I actually got a "Cease & Desist" order from Cornwell based on my debunking of their "Family Owned since Day 1" mantra. I told them to "F-Off" since everything I posted was in the public domain...…….never heard another word.

Private Lugnutz · Apr 23, 2019

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!" :bounce:

I decided to try customer service. The first woman I talked to passed me to Jennifer, someone else in customer service who, by the sound of her voice, had been there a long time. I gave her my spiel, and even before I was finished I could tell I was getting somewhere. She passed me to a Kim D, who was very receptive, interested ("What is the set number?"), and honest ("If you send me some photos I will see what I can do. I may have to share them with an employee who has been with us for quite a long time.") Which is exactly what I was hoping for. No dedicated historian or archives, but at least one of those oldtimers who probably fields all these kinds of questions.

Stay tuned!

Private Lugnutz · Apr 29, 2019

Update:

After not hearing back from Kim for a week, I sent her a note asking if there was any progress. I got an email this morning explaining that she spoke to her boss, Frank, and, "the information that he sent to you would be the same information that I would have given you." The information she is referring to is the original email I shared upthread, which is no information at all, a second email in reply to my follow-up email thanking me for alerting them that they still had a letter from Alex Gray on their website, and saying, "If we had anything to share, we would," and an even ruder email in reply to my email to Kim, saying, "I have already twice addressed your request."

I think it's safe to say that any genuine interest I thought Kim showed on the phone was squelched by her boss, Frank, who seemed annoyed that I tried what he mistook as an end-run.

I think it's telling that in two similar finds and forays like this in my past, the companies have asked for the set for their museum or archives.

With no interest, and no historical information forthcoming from the current incarnation of Gray Tools, I will be turning to other sources.

2oolhound · Apr 29, 2019

Thanks for the update. Sad news though. I wonder if the current ownership will try to maintain their own form of company history or if they'll just delete what little accumulates at the end of each year.

Tasmanian Developer · Jun 10, 2021

Hello all,

At Private Lugnutz's suggestion, I am posting photos of a Gray socket set I found very recently at a local "repurposing" store. The store is a non-profit that takes in items by donation in an attempt to keep anything and everything out of landfills.

i started looking for vintage Gray tools a week prior to finding the set - I want to build a vintage set as my Dad used to keep Gray tools. I was lucky enough to find this set.

I am missing the 3/4" 6 point socket and need to replace the 1/2" and 11/16" 6 point sockets as they are damaged. Private Lugnutz has commented that it may be tall order finding them (and I agree after spending a few weeks at it), but I would appreciate any further advice or suggestions.

Tasmanian Developer · Jun 10, 2021

A couple more photos.

The paint was completely worn off the metal case inside and out and everything was coated with a layer of congealed grease. Unfortunately the decal on the case was completely gone at the time I found it, but the remaining diamond shaped residue pattern helped me to identify it as Gray.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 10, 2021

It's a gorgeous set, Taz! The natural dark steel finish on the sockets is beautiful ,and I have never seen that T-bar before. All T-bars are neat, but T-bars with rotating grips are extra nifty and rare. The coolest part is how big the kit is. That's a serious master nut spinner set. Twenty (20) hex sockets and eight (8) square sockets is a significant number and range of socketry.

In one sense you could be happy the box is roached. It is just yearning to be faithfully restored. If there was some paint left, you might be tempted to preserve it. And you can have a decal made. I will send you a squared-up shot of mine. There's a guy on eBay - jimsenginedecals - who might make one for you. If not, I have another option for you.

Tasmanian Developer · Jun 10, 2021

You know - I probably will restore that case.

Thanks for the help with the image of the decal.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 10, 2021

I forgot that I attached one in post #2. It's not in very good condition, unfortunately.

Tasmanian Developer · Jun 12, 2021

Gray Decal restored.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 13, 2021

That looks terrific.

LukeOresk · Jun 25, 2021

Here’s some pictures of a gray no. 160 socket set I have. Everything is marked mossberg other than the box. I’m very happy to have found it even though all the sockets aren’t perfect

LukeOresk · Jun 27, 2021

If anyone is willing to make that gray decal as a sticker pm me please

Private Lugnutz · Jun 27, 2021

That's a cool set, Luke. I had no idea that Gray was using Mossberg for third party reproduction like that early on.

Steven 33 · Feb 24, 2023

Private Lugnutz said:
Here are some socket comparisons...

Pic 1 is a Gray and a Mossberg (from my No 82 Professional set). No similarities.

Pic 2 is the same two sockets, service openings.

Pic 3 is a Gray and an MFT. The MFT is machined. This is the only MFT socket I own. I don't know if the knurling on all sockets is light, like this, or this socket is worn down, but the knurling doesn't look as deep as the Gray.

Pic 4 is the same two sockets, service openings. They do look A LOT alike from this view.

Pic 5 is a Gray and a Bog. The knurling looks very similar to me. Taller socket, but that could be a year thing.

Pic 6 is the same two sockets, service openings.

What's funny is after seeing these I am convinced that the unmarked "snap on" socket on alloy artifacts is actually a gray socket I have and have had many unmarked S/O sockets and none of them looked like it as far as font style goes but your 25/32 looks like the exact one actually

Private Lugnutz said:
Here are some socket comparisons...

Pic 1 is a Gray and a Mossberg (from my No 82 Professional set). No similarities.

Pic 2 is the same two sockets, service openings.

Pic 3 is a Gray and an MFT. The MFT is machined. This is the only MFT socket I own. I don't know if the knurling on all sockets is light, like this, or this socket is worn down, but the knurling doesn't look as deep as the Gray.

Pic 4 is the same two sockets, service openings. They do look A LOT alike from this view.

Pic 5 is a Gray and a Bog. The knurling looks very similar to me. Taller socket, but that could be a year thing.

Pic 6 is the same two sockets, service openings.

So after looking at these I'm pretty much positive it's a gray socket that they used in alloy artifacts as an example of an unmarked snap on socket. I've had more than a few and the styles are definitely different here's a couple examples

Stubby1743 · Jul 23, 2023

I have had this this special Gray ½” drive deep socket for good few years. Can anyone suggest its intended use?

It’s 12 point 1” across the flats size. 3 7/16” overall length. The last 1 1/8” is reduced in diameter to 1.316” thus giving a very thin wall. This reduction was done in the factory, not afterwards. The square drive recess only extends down to just below the tommy bar holes. That gives the inside of the socket the appearance of a spark socket, but I’m not aware of any plugs that have a 1” hex.

The Markings are: GRAY WL 161 9-16 BSW 5-5 BSF.

The plating is not chrome and looks like the Craftsman cadmium plated tools of the early 1950s.

Stubby1743 · Jul 23, 2023

Apologies, I meant to post the above in the general Gray thread and now i don't seem to be able to delete it.

matthew · Jul 23, 2023

This is speculative on my part - I don’t have any particular knowledge of Gray or that sort of socket -

It’s Whitworth sized. So not 1” across flats, but rather 1.010”.

If it actually is cadmium plated, that would imply 1940’s, give or take.

WL doesn’t really mean anything to me, but I’ve seen it observed in other threads that cadmium plated tools on defence contracts in the US were often marked WF (war finish?). Could WL be a similar marking for Canadian or British procurement?

I think I’ve seen the hole in the top of sockets before, but to my recollection mainly for plug sockets.

I don’t know that the taper is unknown on standard sockets, but could it be specially for something like RR Merlins? (There’s a thread on Merlin tool kits if you’re interested)

Private Lugnutz · Jul 23, 2023

Stubby1743 said:
Apologies, I meant to post the above in the general Gray thread and now i don't seem to be able to delete it.

No worries.

matthew said:
I don’t know that the taper is unknown on standard sockets,

It's not. Plenty of deep well sockets have it. Having said that, it could be a spark plug socket. There were nominal 1" applications in bigger trucks.

matthew · Jul 23, 2023

Gray-Bonney Catalog No. 55 : Gray-Bonney Tool Co., Ltd. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

84 p., illus., 27.2 cm, trade catalog

archive.org

WL161 is on page 68 of the 1955 Gray catalog. It doesn’t indicate any special purpose.

It may be in earlier or later catalogs. I’m not sure when they started or stopped marking Gray-Bonney, so just being marked Gray doesn’t really indicate anything to me.

c. 1920's Gray Tools Toronto Canada Socket Wrench Set

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