Help design my Boiler Panel

papp101 · Aug 22, 2019

Howdy all!

I've finally gotten my garage up with radiant tubing installed, gas line plumbed and inspected, and boiler purchased.

24x26 garage, 1.5 story.
2*4 walls with fiberglass insulation, plus 1" foam exterior envelope.
2" foam under concrete and up the sides below siding.
Insulated garage door.

Basic heat loss calc with Windows @ 28000 btu

Boiler- Navien NCB-180e 80k boiler with a 5 to 1 turndown ratio, modulating Condensing.

Manifold: 4 port (1 extra) RHT manifold

http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/807/rht-ss-hf-stainless-steel-high-flow-manifolds
Originally, I was going to buy one of these parts kits for a single zone panel from blueridge systems.

3 loops of 1/2" o2 pex, all roughly 280' long. 8" spacing.

1 zone.

However, now that I've chosen this boiler, I called up and they are recommending this product- a column pump panel:

http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/797/rht-prefabricated-column-pump-panel

I'm sure it's great, but I wasn't budgeting for that when the basic 1 zone panel parts kit was $500ish.

Where do I start? :/

See the attached tubing plan. I also included one image from the manual that shows how I would picture the components to appear in a basic 1 zone setup.

Thanks!

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papp101 · Aug 22, 2019

Additional pics. And by the way, you're never too old to let your dad show you how it's done!

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Jackfre · Aug 22, 2019

What they are telling you is that you need to pipe this as a primary/secondary system. Your boiler will rarely get off low fire as the system is currently set-up. The P/S piping relieves a lot of pressure on the boiler. The Navien is a nice boiler and you have done a nice job on the slab. The translator between the two is your piping lay-out. Their panel is a "closely spaced Tee" lay-out. You can also buy or build a low-loss header for the same affect, but the CST. Does the boiler have an internal circulator? If so, you can go with a single system circ. Definitely use the Spirovent air eliminator on the system.

Jackfre · Aug 22, 2019

I just went back and looked at the price sheet. Didn't scroll down before. Does the Navien have the internal circ? Does it have an internal capability to drive the slab circ as well as its boiler circ? If so you do not need the pump relay. You can build this for a hell of a lot less, if you can sweat copper. You need the Watts or same pressure reducing/relief as shown in the drawing, expansion tank, Spirovent, system circ, relief valve, and tubing/fittings to make this up yourself.

papp101 · Aug 22, 2019

Thank you Jackfire!!

Below is the internal diagram which shows the F designation as an integrated boiler pump- I was wondering if that could support the duty for all 3 loops?

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yeldogt · Aug 22, 2019

Don't they have some piping diagrams w/ the boiler instructions ? -- typically the boiler circulator is just for the boiler -- the other circulator would drive the water to the loops.

As Jack has pointed out with your heat load and boiler size -- it's going to be on low all the time. This is a problem with lots of system today -- all the boilers are too big.

I owed have done the piping a bit different to get the hot water around the edges and less in the middle ... it really depends on overall maintained temp.

On the blue loop -- I would reverse the flow so the hotter water is on the edge .. The back corner will be the warmest area

Kaizen · Aug 22, 2019

Don’t know why they suggest zones as the three loops are really one zone.

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fitter30 · Aug 22, 2019

Are you going to use this boiler for domestic hot water and if not why this boiler? Water temp for radiant heat runs at 5-10* over your thermostat setting. Manifolds can be made out of cpvc, copper or screwed brass with pex adaptors.

Mancino · Aug 23, 2019

I'm definitely no expert, but a few things I can recommend and give as input, since I'm doing my boiler install now...but I have a 4 loop system. I went with a Navian NHB55.

That boiler seems oversized. And like fitter30 said, why the NCB model? Do you need the DHW option? I do know that the NCB-210 I use in the house has an internal circulator for the P/S loop system they suggest. So I just used zone pumps.

And I don't think you need that pump panel. You can buy the pre-fabbed manifolds Navian sells that has the P/S system in mind. It's like $200. That's the route I went. Makes plumbing simple. You could check out my system for an idea.

Jackfre · Aug 23, 2019

QUOTE "I was wondering if that could support the duty for all 3 loops?"

No it cannot. The internal circulator is only for the boiler loop itself. The purpose of a primary/secondary system is to eliminate the pressure drop of the boiler itself from the radiant loop. You then need a circ for the floor.

papp101 · Aug 23, 2019

Thanks for all the great info!

I ended up with this boiler from a great deal of New in Box on Craigslist for $1300, so it really helped the budget. I won't use the DHW, and yup, it's about 50% larger than it needs to be! If someone had a new NHB-55 they wanted to trade, i would be interested. :0) Anyone? This is nice that it has the integrated circulator, so I guess one less thing to buy.

I'm liking the idea of the quick setup primary loop, or replicating one, then a simple loop of components as found in Mancino's Image.

Does that seem like the most straightforward setup?

Jackfre · Aug 24, 2019

I would suggest that you at least pipe the dhw loop to a hose bib. I think you will be surprised how often having hot water will fit your needs.

papp101 · Aug 24, 2019

I definitely would love to have hot water in the garage, but it's disconnected from the house with no water source. :/ I thought about doing something with a reservoir and a waste basin/slop sink, but we'll see. Plenty of option to improve in the future!

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fitter30 · Aug 24, 2019

What type of pex did you use? Oxygen barrier or plain.

papp101 · Aug 24, 2019

Oxygen barrier from blueridge company.

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fitter30 · Aug 24, 2019

Taco pump 009 1/25 hp should work. For dhw could put a gutter on garage and a rain water barrel with a pump.

papp101 · Aug 24, 2019

fitter30 said:
Taco pump 009 1/25 hp should work. For dhw could put a gutter on garage and a rain water barrel with a pump.

Awesome idea! And thanks for the pump recommendation!

Anyone have an idea on how to size the expansion tank? I haven't looked into that yet.

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Jackfre · Aug 25, 2019

Fitter, the 009 is a lot of pump for this. It is a 1/8 hp. The 007 is the 1/25.

https://www.pexuniverse.com/how-size-circulator-pump

fitter30 · Aug 26, 2019

280' pex .03x 280'= 8.4' + 2' for related piping 10.4' of head @3gpm and if he decides to run 30% propylene glycol head jumps to 14'. I rather pick a little larger pump than one that is closer to the curve for piping that were not seeing. A 2 gallon bladder expansion tank would be large enough.

papp101 · Aug 26, 2019

I found a good diagram below, so I'll probably follow that with a primary secondary system.

3 questions:

What size would you all use for the boiler to manifold piping? 1 inch? 3/4"?

What base temp and Delta t should I be shooting for, or how would I go about identifying that?

Should I run my system /expansion/ at 12 psi?

Thank you!

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kj_mustang · Aug 27, 2019

You did a heat loss calc with what? Looks like a LoopCAD drawing, if so, that software will give you all the info you need.
Run 1" pipe to the manifold.

fitter30 · Aug 27, 2019

Navin piping diagram i would add one more valve for a drain for servicing the loop pump and expansion tank. Gauge 0-30lb on the system return side. You can run 12lbs. System pressure should be the same as ex tank pressure cold.

papp101 · Aug 30, 2019

Finally got things started, thank you all for the help!! right side will come down and elbow to the right into the return of the manifold. left side will continue down turn right to the pump then on to the end on the manifold.

Expansion tank will come from the supervent down below the bottom path next to the outlet there will be a drain petcock there.

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fitter30 · Aug 30, 2019

On your manifolds supply----> a- b -c
c-b-a<----- return
This is called reverse return all three loops should be balanced. First in last out

papp101 · Aug 30, 2019

Thanks Fitter! So, it should be abc on top, and cba on bottom then, correct?

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fitter30 · Aug 31, 2019

Looks good!

papp101 · Sep 6, 2019

iTS ALIVE!!!!!!

Big thank you to everyone who provided feedback and guidance at the right time!!

Filled it with Hercules 100 (55% glycol originally, diluted with distilled down to 35% glycol as specified by the boiler.) Used a little drill pump with worked great and even pressurized to 12 psi.

Heated the slab from 76 to 80 degrees in about 5 hours.

I used a wall thermostat to control, but then was wondering if I should switch to slab temp? I'd love to use an ecobee to get runtime data, but they don't have an input for slab temp sensor. However, I could put one of their remote sensors on the ground under a bucket which would probably get the same result. Not sure here.

Bring on the winter.

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86turbodsl · Sep 6, 2019

Good job using antifreeze. You do nice work. Good looking panel.

Enjoy the floor heat! I love mine!

Jackfre · Sep 6, 2019

Expansion tank?

papp101 · Sep 6, 2019

Yeah, green one below the pump. Got by with the smaller 2 gallon one.

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fitter30 · Sep 6, 2019

What thermostat are you using? Model #.
The condensing water coming out of boiler is very acidic. You can purchase a neutralizer or make one out of a plastic bucket with lid and two bulk head fitting and some chat ( rock) . Chat is lime stone that is neutralizer. Line from boiler enters low drain line out exits high. Just change the rock at the beginning of the season.
If you never had radiate heat and your house has a furnace you will want to move into the garage when it gets very cold. There is no better heat.

papp101 · Sep 6, 2019

Aube TH135-01-B. Bought it at Menards just to get me started, but may return it.

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Mancino · Sep 17, 2019

Let me know what you end up choosing for a thermostat, papp101. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to use...I hear conflicting info on whether to use the slab sensor or not. Or that the PWM type stats make the system short cycle. Some people say the simplest thermostat is the best for these systems.

papp101 · Sep 17, 2019

Mancino said:
Let me know what you end up choosing for a thermostat, papp101. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to use...I hear conflicting info on whether to use the slab sensor or not. Or that the PWM type stats make the system short cycle. Some people say the simplest thermostat is the best for these systems.

Will do. I definitely feel the one I have was short-cycling going off air temp, +-2 degrees, and i feel it would be more beneficial with a slab temp as it would take longer to catch up. However, I'd like something like my ecobee that lets it drop 5 ish degrees before kicking on, then it pumps in heat until it gets there in turn running for longer periods.

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PNWguy · Nov 7, 2019

I'm close to pulling the trigger on a system from Blueridge - how did you like dealing with them?

papp101 · Nov 8, 2019

I thought they were good. I realized I could get everything I needed at Menards locally, and after I learned what I needed from this site I then disagreed with some of their recommendations. However, their prices and website were good, shipping was realistic, and the original people I worked with a year and a half ago were very kind and knowledgeable.

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Help design my Boiler Panel

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