Tree Journeyman 425 CNC milling machine control retrofit

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Thought I’d start a thread about my cnc milling machine.. I’ve wanted a cnc milling machine (and lathe) for a long time. After converting my router to Centroid Acorn, I knew I wanted my other machines to run their control as well. I just got this machine home. Was 150 miles away. Weighs 6000 pounds, CAT40 spindle taper, oiler, coolant, Baldor DC servos, 7.5 HP spindle. I think it’s a perfect candidate for control retrofit and will be a great first cnc mill for my shop. Seller needed it out of his shop. I got it for scrap value or a little under.

I’ve done some searching and come up dry trying to find schematics. Would be helpful for the conversion.

Plan is Centroid AllInOneDC, new VFD, complete rewire, cleanup, etc. I will be using a single phase supply into a VFD for the spindle.

Made it to my shop without incident.

Delta 20 control.

The seller had a 4k forklift. It took everything it had to get the mill loaded on the trailer.

Picked from the top with both forks together. Two straps and a clevis mostly leveled the load.

Lifting it to get the steel bar cribbing out was the limit of the forklift.

Load was in the sweet spot for the trailer.

Tied down secure and ready to roll.

Stopped to check things out. No issues. Drove between 30 and 55 mph on two lane backroads the whole way home.

Made it home just as the sun set. Twelve hours round trip.

Rented a 10k telehandler to unload.

Same rigging as the day before to pick it.

Coming up to the shop door.

We set it back on the 3” square tubing it was on at the sellers shop and picked it up from the bottom and drove it in the shop. It’s sitting on the tubing now. I’ll lower it off the tubing onto round bar with a toe jack and roll it into place on the bar. Once it’s in place the toe jacks lift and set it on the ground.

Looks like good bones. Needs a thorough cleaning and a complete electrical rebuild. Lots of useable parts in the original control. PO said spindle VFD has failed.

Spent several hours and a gallon of cleaner scrubbing the coolant and grime off the mill today. Will need another pass of cleaning. After getting a closer look, I’m still happy with the machine. Should work well for my needs.

Not sure what this motor is on the X axis. It’s not the same as the Baldor on the Y.

Cleaning that dirty old beast was no easy task!

Schematics in hand I set out to test the control. It powered up, all faults cleared and I was able to reference the machine.

The Dynapath Delta 20 control is working. Going to sell the old control.

Received the 10hp HY VFD today. I currently have accel/decel both set at 8 seconds. Single phase supply sees about 20a peak on that acceleration time. Running current, spinning the spindle only, is 6a in, around 5a out.

I don’t expect this drive to perform like a drive that would cost 10x the $300 I paid for it. It is nice to see the spindle move. For the money, I can see why guys like these drives.

I wonder what the old drive’s life was like..

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

The toe jack arrived. It’s a very nice piece. Had no problem moving the square tubing inboard a bit so the toe jack could be used in the pocket made for it.

laser3kw · Dec 21, 2019

Congratulations on your new project! I worked with CNC for many years and always wanted one at home.
Do you have 3 phase in your shop? You mentioned that you ran the VFD on single phase, can the servo amps run on single phase? Or it the new controller made for single phase?

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

I don’t have three phase at this time. The original Dynapath control has DC servos that run off two legs of the three phase input. The new control will power the existing DC servos, off 240v single phase. It’s a drop in replacement. The only three phase components on the machine are the spindle and flood coolant pump. I don’t plan to use flood coolant. I’d I change my mind and want to run flood coolant, I can use a small single phase input vfd to power it.

The spindle will be powered by the single supply via the vfd.

alcorelli · Dec 21, 2019

That is so cool.

Have fun and be safe.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

manwithtools · Dec 21, 2019

Nice, looks like a good platform to work with. Now get out the wallet for all that tooling you are going to want.

You still seem happy with the Centroid, I'd like to replace my Mach3 setup with an Acorn on my mill. Thoughts?

My little mill currently has a Servo spindle so I'd have to swap that motor with a three phase AC motor and run it with a VFD to use the Acorn. Then I'd have to add an encoder to get spindle control for tapping. It's a bit of work but doable.

Are you going to have an encoder on the spindle using the AllInOneDC?

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

I am really happy with Centroid! They continue to develop features and documentation for their DIY product line. It's a huge jump from something like Mach3. I can't recommend it enough. Why can't you use your servo spindle with Acorn? The spindle output is 0-10v. If your servo drive can be controlled by 0-10v, you would be good to go on that. I do think you'd want a spindle encoder. Rigid tapping looks so nice!

I do plan to sort out a spindle encoder on the AllInOneDC once I get the machine running.

Today, I am upgrading CNC12 (their control software) on my router, sorting out my new wireless touch probe and finally getting my air blast setup going.

manwithtools · Dec 21, 2019

My servo spindle is setup to take step and direction, just like a stepper motor. It won't accept 0-10. I would probably upgrade my spindle motor to a higher HP if I replaced it with a 3-phase motor and VFD.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

You can use one of the four axis outputs to run a spindle step/direction with Acorn.

manwithtools · Dec 21, 2019

I thought about that, but I need all four axis for x,y,z and (4th) rotary axis on table.

Strouty · Dec 21, 2019

This thread is very timely, I am getting ready to add a third axis and upgrade my controls on a Bridgeport EZ trak mill and centroid was one of the suppliers I was looking at for parts. I am new to this, but have a friend that deals with CNC stuff, problem is, he uses stepper motors and doesn't know anything about servo motors like what my Bridgeport has. I figure your endeavor will line up fairly well with mine (minus adding the z axis), glad you posted and I look forward to the updates. The mill looks like a stout unit for sure and at scrap price you did really well.

davethorik · Dec 21, 2019

I read this thread and didn't see once what you plan to make with it. But I see you don't want flood coolant...so what is it you're gonna make?

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

manwithtools said:
I thought about that, but I need all four axis for x,y,z and (4th) rotary axis on table.

Copy. VFD with a three phase motor is the way to go with four axis on Acorn.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Strouty said:
This thread is very timely, I am getting ready to add a third axis and upgrade my controls on a Bridgeport EZ trak mill and centroid was one of the suppliers I was looking at for parts. I am new to this, but have a friend that deals with CNC stuff, problem is, he uses stepper motors and doesn't know anything about servo motors like what my Bridgeport has. I figure your endeavor will line up fairly well with mine (minus adding the z axis), glad you posted and I look forward to the updates. The mill looks like a stout unit for sure and at scrap price you did really well.

Centroid's AllInOneDC is literally made for what you are wanting to do. It is a straight forward installation. I'm happy to help if I'm able.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

davethorik said:
I read this thread and didn't see once what you plan to make with it. But I see you don't want flood coolant...so what is it you're gonna make?

I don't like the smell and mess of the flood coolants I have been around. I plan to use mist coolant, at least until I find out I need to use flood for something I don't know about yet.

I will make.. whatever comes to mind. I have a CNC router and laser. Generally speaking, I plan to make whatever my customers ask for and I dream up. I am currently working on a product for a Ferrari customer that will have a lot of 3d profiling in aluminum.

American Locomotive · Dec 21, 2019

You could also use the flood coolant with oil instead of water-based. It does smoke, but works well.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

American Locomotive said:
You could also use the flood coolant with oil instead of water-based. It does smoke, but works well.

I understand. Honestly, flood coolant is the least of my worries at this point. I'm sure I'll be asking more questions when I get there. My original point was, I'm not concerned about the other three phase motor on the mill right now. If I need to power it, a small VFD is an easy solution.

Thank you for checking out my machine build and taking the time to comment. I'm no machinist, just a guy trying to learn how to make some stuff.

Strouty · Dec 21, 2019

Looks like if I reuse my motors and go with centroid I will easily be into $5k for just parts. That is a tad over (a big tad) what I expected. I need to have some discussions with my friend, seems like they are charging a huge convenience fee for a pretty package. I am sure in the scheme of things that isn’t too bad, but I have to justify it on something that doesn’t make me money.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

That's for a closed loop industrial control.

Strouty · Dec 21, 2019

I guess I am not understanding what that means?

manwithtools · Dec 21, 2019

Strouty said:
I guess I am not understanding what that means?

What that means is the difference between a stepper driven setup vs servo.

To over simplify, with a stepper system your control tells the motors to go to a commanded position and has to assume they went to that position because there is no feedback to know otherwise.

With a closed loop servo system, the servo motors have an encoder built into them that gives position feedback. The control system now knows that the axis went to the commanded position. This is more typical of an industrial machining setup and less typical of a hobbyist setup. With a good sturdy mill this can mean you are making very accurate parts every time and the control system verifies that.

Think of it this way - "Servo motor, go 3.75 revolutions clockwise at 1500 RPM" Servo replies "Yes sir, I went 3.75 revolutions at 1500 RPM and am awaiting you next command"

Strouty · Dec 21, 2019

Ok, I was confused because I have servo motors, so that is the system I would be using.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Strouty, he nailed it. The DC servos already on your mill are almost always worth keeping. They are order of magnitude better than any stepper motor setup. The do need a closed loop control to work. Centroid makes it easy with the AllInOneDC. You can reuse a lot of what you have - input power distribution, control power transformers, contactors, etc. While it does (and is) a big cost, you have a machine that's in the five figure class of machine for a lot less. And, the control will last 20 or more years without any issues.

This is why I bought the machine I have.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Moved the mill into its home. The toe jack made quick work of moving and turning the 6000 pound machine. I’m not going to set it on the floor until it’s up and running. I need a machine pry bar to lower it off the bar its sitting on.

Strouty · Dec 21, 2019

That toe jack is sweet, who makes it?

I am not sure I have DC servos, they may be AC, do not have pics of my motors. My machine is not nearly as rugged as yours, but it is all manual and CNC and that is a plus for me as I use it a lot as a glorified drill press.

Finallygotit · Dec 21, 2019

Subscribed! :thumbup:

Just curious, what is the spindle stroke? Might be nice to throw a power feed on that knee. Cranking that puppy up and down will get old if you have to do it much.

:beer:

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Strouty said:
That toe jack is sweet, who makes it?

toe jack

I am really impressed with the quality. Worth every bit of the cost.

This is a particularly heavy knee mill at 6,000 pounds. I can't wait to get the control going!

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

Finallygotit said:
Subscribed!

Just curious, what is the spindle stroke? Might be nice to throw a power feed on that knee. Cranking that puppy up and down will get old if you have to do it much.

Hey Dan! Z is 6". There was a factory option for a power feed on the knee. I'm keeping my eye out for one. I don't think a Bridgeport syle Servo would have enough power. Not excited about cranking the knee up and down.

Thanks for stopping by!

matt_i · Dec 21, 2019

I personally don't think you're losing much without the coolant. Without an enclosure it will make a mega mess. Solid carbides will handle a lot of heat if you don't thermally shock them.

Running on the conservative side of what's possible always helps any kind of edge tools as well. When you're paying out of your own pocket and not trying to crank out product as fast as possible to meet a cycle time its a savings.

Will be following to see how it goes. Getting the spindle working is a great start and hopefully helpful to confidence that everything is OK.

slodat · Dec 21, 2019

My plan is to start out with mist and see where that takes me. The original specs on the machine were up to 100ipm cutting and 250 rapids. I don't plan to push it any faster than that.

I've moved all three axis and the spindle under power. Everything looks good and the little bit of measuring I've done looks great, too. I think it will be a great machine for me. This machine will be for product development and general shop tasks. If I get to making anything with any volume at all, I'll buy a machine for that.

Thanks for stopping by and commenting!

Finallygotit · Dec 22, 2019

matt_i said:
I personally don't think you're losing much without the coolant. Without an enclosure it will make a mega mess. Solid carbides will handle a lot of heat if you don't thermally shock them.

Running on the conservative side of what's possible always helps any kind of edge tools as well. When you're paying out of your own pocket and not trying to crank out product as fast as possible to meet a cycle time its a savings.

Will be following to see how it goes. Getting the spindle working is a great start and hopefully helpful to confidence that everything is OK.

I agree with Matt here. And personally I don't think you need the mist as that will fog up your shop in no time and land on everything. Having worked in a machine shop for years, I can attest that the mist coolant will get everywhere.

What I would suggest is just blowing air at the cutting zone to clear the chips and to help keep the temps down in the cutting zone.

:beer:

slodat · Dec 22, 2019

I should have been more specific. I'm thinking I'll give the Fogbuster a go when I get the machine going. Minimal mess.

zkling · Dec 22, 2019

Centroid is the way to go for a job shop retrofit. I think youbare going to want flood coolant. Look at some of the Atrump mills for ideas on small chip / coolant enclosures. Without a tool changer you aren't going to want to fully enclose it.

As you know you will want to program it for "old school" cutting methods, ie heavy (chip load) and slow. The modern high speed machining idea of light and fast does not apply to that type of machine.

slodat · Dec 22, 2019

A previous owner built this to help contain coolant. I also have the lower funnel style tray that straddles both sides of the knee. I’ll worry more about coolant once it’s making chips.

I understand what you are saying about chip load on this machine. They did offer a 6,000 rpm spindle pulley option. Trying to find a set. It currently is about 3600 rpm at full speed. Factory max cutting speed was 100 ipm, 250 rapids.

Thanks for the info. I have a lot to learn.

matt_i · Dec 22, 2019

On my old Fadal I don't call out more than a 4000rpm S-value (spindle speed) capable of 7500rpm. I also don't machine faster than 20ipm. I don't even use the G0, just call out a feedrate of 50ipm when I want to make rapid moves (which are usually no more than 4"). Its not that the machine is incapable, but why run it that hard? I use it like you where its a couple of parts here and there. I'm no job shop, I don't have "bills to pay" for which the machine is generating the revenue.

E.g. Blow up the spindle and I'm thinking its going to be $3k minimum....

slodat · Dec 22, 2019

Matt, well said. Even if I'm making money on the part it's making, I'm not going to push the machine hard. I don't have to. I'm just excited to have a closed loop control CNC mill with some serious mass. Should make some nice parts.

dagofast · Dec 22, 2019

Many years ago I used to work for Ellison Machinery based in SoCal. They were a dealer for Tree and I believe also owned an interest inTree Machine Tools. Back then Tree Machine Tools was based in Racine, Wisconsin. There is a company that still provides support called Eagle Machine. http://www.eaglemachinetool.com/id12.html They can probably provide the schematic you need for the machine side of things. It is also possible Ellison out in LA still has some documentation available.

slodat · Dec 22, 2019

I got machine schematics and manual from ZPS-CNC. I believe they are the newest owner of all of the remaining Tree spares and such. I read somewhere that Eagle had sold it all.

That’s cool history you have with these machines! Thank you!

dagofast · Dec 22, 2019

I remember ZPS becoming involved back in the mid nineties. I'm long retired from that business but as I understand the timeline, the original Tree machines were produced in Racine. After the original owner passed away, the business suffered under 2nd generation ownership and it was sold to a group that Ellison had a stake in. After the iron curtain came down, ZPS in Slovakia needed work and much of the production was sent there as the costs were ridiculously cheaper. ZPS also built full on machining centers that were sold as Tree Machines as well. Then I think a company in Singapore (possibly Excell?) bought the holding company and moved all production to Asia before going broke during the global financial meltdown of the late 2000's. It is hard to keep up with who owns what anymore. Even longstanding 30-40 year relationships between machine tool manufacturers and distributors are all different nowadays.

slodat · Dec 22, 2019

Removed the Dynapath Delta 20 Control and servo drivers. Hoping I can get a few bucks for it all to help pay for the new stuff. The cabinets were like the rest of the machine. Absolutely filthy. A little better now.

I could put the new control in one cabinet, but I think I’ll stick with the existing layout with the incoming AC supply and spindle drive in a separate enclosure. It’s already laid out that way.

Tree Journeyman 425 CNC milling machine control retrofit

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