Getting Insane Quotes for Running Natural Gas to Garage...Solution?

Stinger · Oct 24, 2009

I poured a slab and installed a house heat/ac unit behind my garage, ran the duct through the wall, etc. Once installed, I started getting quotes from plumbers to run a gas line from the meter on the side of my house back to the garage. It is a run of 163' and goes under a fence, around an oak tree, across 3 other utility lines (cable, phone, electric), and makes two 90 degree turns. One turn is about 6' from the meter and the other is in the middle of the yard about 2/3 the way to the heater. They say I need 3/4" line to properly supply the heater with natural gas.

Here is the problem, I've got 4 quotes so far:
$2860
$3340
$9600
$1700 (If I dig the trench)

When talking to the plumbers, they have all said I've got about $150 in the hookups at each end of the line (whatever the steel line and such is that comes out of the ground) and a couple hundred in plastic 3/4" line. So the supplies total $500-$600 apparently. They all seem to be worried about digging the trench and are charging me accordingly. That's why I asked for the last quote if I rent a trencher and do it myself.

I really expected to not have to pay more than a few hundred dollars labor if I did everything but physically lay the line and hook it up, clearly I was off by about $1500 though. Am I way out of line in my expectations or are the estimates out of line?

Since I refuse to pay this much to run the line, I've looked into other options and keep ending up back at square one:

--I tried getting the gas company to running a second meter for just the garage. It would only cost me about $300 BUT they can't put a second meter on the property unless it is a commercial building. Called the city and there are zoning laws that prevent me from doing that (aside from the tax issues I'd run into). So that option is out.

--Tried running the line directly out of the side of the house instead of from the meter as it would cut some length off of the line but quotes didn't change much at all, that option is out.

Tried getting a permit to do the work myself but they won't issue me one because I'm not a licensed plumber. That option is out.

--Called 4 different divisions within the city asking if anyone had any ideas or any loopholes I could use to my advantage...no luck, that option is out.

--The last option I can come up with is to convert the heater to propane and put a tank in my back yard. This would be much cheaper initially but I don't particularly like the idea of having a big ugly tank in the yard, I know it will cost more to use, and I just feel like it's not the "right" way to do it.

Anybody have any ideas?

I've attached a picture to show what I'm working with. Gas line is yellow, other lines are red:

FireWrench · Oct 24, 2009

Rent a ditch witch and go with your 1700 dollar bidder. And yeah, NG lines are only for qualified technicians. I mean dude its natural gas! Screw it up and you just blew up half your neighborhood!

Think your neighbors dislike you now?! Your really gonna be on their **** list if you cause something like this to happen!

fordcragar · Oct 24, 2009

I'd go with the $1700 dollar bid as well and get it done; then forget about and enjoy the heat.

D.J. · Oct 24, 2009

Check with your local PROPANE company and ask them how much for a 100 gallon tank and if they rent tanks. The 100 gallon size can be put right up against a building and as long as its 10 foot from a property line you should be ok. I see no windows on the back side so that should not be a problem and you could put some of the savings toward your heating system!
________
GM FOODS

GeorgiaHybrid · Oct 24, 2009

Have the first three re-bid with you doing the trenching and the closing on the trench. Tell them to furnish the piping and other required material, lay the pipe only and hook it up at each end.

I can't imagine this running more than a $1,000 at the outside.

nissan_crawler · Oct 24, 2009

can you trench it, lay the line, have htem hook it up, then cover it up yourself?

Kevin54 · Oct 24, 2009

You can always get a "buried" propane tank. That way all you see is a lid and a small vent sticking up.

redsky49 · Oct 24, 2009

The two lower price quotes do not seem excessive. Due to the presence of all the buried utilities, much of the trench will have to be hand excavated, and even where work may proceed with a backhoe/DitchWitch, extreme care will have to be exercised.

Any buried piping should be installed correctly which will likely require a prepared bed of sand in the trench, as well as a wire tracer for future identification. How deep will the trench have to be? There is a price difference between 18" and 36" depth.

Contractor has to include travel time in his estimate, restoring the lawn, sending someone to pick up the required parts, etc. Plus what about any unknown issues that may arise? Shouldn't the Contractor have a 5-10% contingency in his bid for any surprises?

Also, look at how much potential liability the Contractor is facing versus the fee. And finally, the guy deserves to make some profit.

Just something to think about.

As always, offered only as opinion

tdkkart · Oct 24, 2009

Call your utility company and ask them is they can supply the line in the lenghth you need with the proper ends attached. I did this at my last place, called them , told them what I needed, they delivered it and put it on my next bill. I dug the trench, layed in the line and then had the plumber hook up both ends. Not expensive at all.

You are simply finding out how expensive contractors can be. Your high end bids are from guys that simply don't want to do the job.

Digging this in isn't going to be a big deal, the cable and phone will be the biggest PIA. Call your local one-call service, they will come out and mark the lines. The cable and phone will likely be very close to the surface, probably 12-16" down, and the electric will be deeper. Call the electric folks and find out how far down they bury their lines.
Your gas line only needs to be down 18" or so in most cases.

Dig down by hand and find your lines as marked, trench the rest with the trencher. If you called the locating company, dug down and found the lines as marked and then hit something that was not marked you are at least off the hook.

mtwaterguy · Oct 24, 2009

tdkkart said:
Call your utility company and ask them is they can supply the line in the lenghth you need with the proper ends attached.

I hooked my gas line to the shop first. We lived in the shop while the house was being built. When it was time to run the line to the house I dug the hole and then contacted the utility co. They came out, drop the line and did all the hook ups, at no charge. Then I covered the hole to finish the job.

Brad1234 · Oct 24, 2009

D.J. said:
Check with your local PROPANE company and ask them how much for a 100 gallon tank and if they rent tanks. The 100 gallon size can be put right up against a building and as long as its 10 foot from a property line you should be ok. I see no windows on the back side so that should not be a problem and you could put some of the savings toward your heating system!

I would go with the propane idea. You won't see the tank from the house, you won't tear up your yard, depending on the propane company you can do all of the work yourself, pressure test with an air tank(I think $20 at Sears). The propane company will want to leak check again when they bring your tank. At least thats how it worked out for me.

trainer · Oct 24, 2009

I buried an inexpensive poly water pipe in place of the gas line when I built my garage. When the natural gas contractor came, he simply pushed the gas piping through the poly and hooked things up.

fatboy99 · Oct 24, 2009

Is it possible to put steel pipe inside to the back corner of the house by the drive to the shop ?And then run along the side to the back would shorten the run and avoid crossing the power lines. Or go to the front corner and run up into the shop attic and hard plumb to the heater
Just an option

Git · Oct 24, 2009

This isn't rocket science. Gas pressure is usually less than 5 psi

Dig the trench yourself and see if you can find place to sell you the PE type gas line. You then get a couple of 90 degree risers. You would only have two connections in the ground - where the 90's connect to the line. The connection is literally a push on - you chamfer the end of the pipe and push it in. Once your above ground, Home Depot black iron pipe to connect to your meter. Pressure test the whole thing for a day or two

If you cant do it yourself, dig the trench and offer to pay someone by the hour..

Check out these fittings

ConStab

King Me IRL · Oct 24, 2009

I just put in a 1 1/2" gas line to my moms pool heater, 150'. The pipe (yellow poly gas pipe) was less than $100. But the two end connectors were $100 a piece. I didn't need any 90's and with 3/4 you won't need any either, it is very flexible. like everyone said, there is no reason you can't run the line yourself and pay the plumber to make the connections and test.

t. jones · Oct 24, 2009

Nice grass I wouldn't want to tear that up. I had the same problem at my last house,ran a temporary line from the outside BBQ hookup to the shop [1/2 airline] shut it off every night [for the first couple of weeks] . Worked fine for 3 years untill we sold the house. Rolled it up in the spring so I could cut the grass

Iron-Iceberg · Oct 24, 2009

Our gas co ran a line underground to our house with no trench. They used an underground boring machine and came up within inches of the house. Maybe some one other than the gas co has a machine like this and could do it cheeper than tearing up the lawn ect.

cwstevens92 · Oct 24, 2009

waste oil burner or a good ol wood stove?

fireman · Oct 24, 2009

D.J. said:
Check with your local PROPANE company and ask them how much for a 100 gallon tank and if they rent tanks. The 100 gallon size can be put right up against a building and as long as its 10 foot from a property line you should be ok. I see no windows on the back side so that should not be a problem and you could put some of the savings toward your heating system!

That's what I did. They came out, set the tank, pressure tested my piping and hooked everything up, no charge. The rent for 100 gal. tank is $50 a year.

Git · Oct 24, 2009

King Me IRL said:
I didn't need any 90's and with 3/4 you won't need any either, it is very flexible.

You need the 90's to transition to epoxy coated metal so when you come up out of the ground, the pipe would be protected. I don't think your can have the yellow PE pipe above ground???

fireguy · Oct 24, 2009

Are those bidders licensed, insured and do they carry worker's comp?
If so, toss the high and the low. Ask for references, good and bad. Hire that one.

rodm1 · Oct 24, 2009

Kevin54 said:
You can always get a "buried" propane tank. That way all you see is a lid and a small vent sticking up.

+1

Matti · Oct 24, 2009

I did a gas line last year. I dug the trench and bought the PE line. A local shop custom makes the line for me with risers, brackets and valves. I got a plumber to pull the permit and pressure test the line as well as putting together the swing joints at either end. He also ran the flex line into the garage and up to the heater. His bill was $800 and things are expensive up here. The 30 foot line was around $250. You must check with the local codes to see how deep the trench must be. It was 24" here. Roots are a bi*ch. Dial before you dig.

Stinger · Oct 25, 2009

Thanks for all of the info. They all indicated the line needed to be somewhere between 18-24" deep.

You guys are convincing me to convert to propane and put a tank behind the garage. I really don't want to tear up the lawn as it took years to get the grass the way it is (roots are nearly 10" down into the ground at this point).

The heater says it is 82000 btu in and something like 48000 btu out and efficiency was in the 85% range according to the sticker on the side. I need to take another look at it and take a picture to get the exact info (last I looked at it was nearly a month ago).

Anybody have any idea how much the efficiency drops on propane rather than natural gas?

How about how the price of propane compares to gas?

How about how long it would run on a 100lb tank (24x30x8 garage, fully insulated, programmable thermostat to turn it down at night, no need to keep it higher than 60 degrees or so when working)?

Torque1st · Oct 25, 2009

Hank Hill can answer all those questions. -jk
Give the distributor a call.

KenS · Oct 25, 2009

Go with the natural gas and the low bidder. The utility company will want to inspect the installation and see that the new line is properly charged. The job is not difficult, but hooking to the existing meter can be a challenge if you've never done it before. For the aggravation value, I gladly paid my HVAC contractor to do it right.

Long after the installation price is forgotten, you'll have the luxury of a heated garage (I assume you have a nice insulated garage door) and will benefit from the convenience of continuous automatic delivery and lower fuel cost. Seed and straw the trench now, and the lawn will be healed by next summer. A Ditchwitch creates a very narrow trench.

I speak from experience. I keep my garage at 55 degrees all winter and I have barely noticed any difference in my natural gas bill. (The garage is well insulated in both walls and ceiling.)

One hint-- take plenty of photos and measurements during installation. They will help you in the future should you ever decide to do any excavation in the yard. When the plastic line is buried, a metal wire is run above it to help locate the buried pipe, but as the ditch is backfilled, the metal wire invariably will shift away from the pipe.

One more thing to consider-- since you will have a trench open and if code allows it, now may be the time to go ahead and install another conduit to the garage for 220-volt electrical service if you do not already have it, or a conduit for future water/phone/cable/fibre optic lines, etc. The conduit for your run would probably cost less than $50.

sungrove · Oct 25, 2009

If only gophers were trainable. "Ok, boy. Now here's the pipe. Take that and dig straight from here to the shop. When you get there I'll give you a nice treat., But then you have to leave" :bounce:

Stinger · Oct 25, 2009

OK, after doing some more research:
2516 btu in 1 cubic ft of propane
1030 btu in 1 cubic ft of natural gas

82,000 btu/hr furnace will use propane at a rate of 32.59 cubic ft per hr of run time.
82,000 btu/hr furnace will use natural gas at a rate of 76.61 cubic ft per hr of run time.
1 Gal Propane = 91,600 btu

It seems propane is averaging around $1.50/gallon lately. At 82,000 btu/hr of run time, cost per hr of run time on propane would be $1.34

Natural gas is about $14.00 per 1,000 cubic feet currently. This means that $14.00 will purchase approximately 1.03 million BTU's of energy. This would be about $1.08 per hr of run time.

At $1.50 per gallon of propane, 11.26 gallons is $16.89 which is about 18% higher than natural gas. Considering the initial cost differential between propane and natural gas ($2000), at current prices I would have to spend about $11000 in natural gas before I would reach the break-even point between total cost involved in propane and natural gas.

My math may be off because it's late and my brain seemed to go to sleep about half way through this so if anyone sees any glaring issues let me know. Otherwise my calculations seem to indicate propane is the way to go.

motofly196 · Oct 25, 2009

I work for the city in the town I live in ..in Public Works dept...

1. Rent yourself a sod cutter, makes a nice clean cut in your beautiful lawn.
Fold it over to the opposite side that your ditcher windrows your soil.
2. Go to town with the ditch witch....hand dig around the existing lines. Get
the ax ready when you get near the roots...hopefully you have good
earth, and they're deep.
3. Get your contractor to do the rest of the work....hook-ups ect... Your
inspector will like this...trust me...
4. DONT bury the line until it get's inspected!!
5. Rake the soil back in...no rocks around the line...preferably a bed of sand
(Check with inspector....)
6. Flip your sod back into the trench...and roll it in if you have access to sod
roller.

YOUR DONE...no worries.....and you're HEATED! Gas isn't something to mess with if you're not trained...let the pro's do it right! Just for a comparison, I had to have a 5' section of line run to my Big Maxx heater in the garage. I had two compression fittings. I did ALL the prep work...holes in ceiling....drops in line....everything. The lowest bid I could get was $580!!! The new fittings need a license just to purchase them!!! Or else I would of done it myself

GOOD LUCK!!

Scott

redsky49 · Oct 25, 2009

Stinger said:
Thanks for all of the info. They all indicated the line needed to be somewhere between 18-24" deep.

You need to be below the frost line as required for your area's winter design conditions.

The heater says it is 82000 btu in and something like 48000 btu out and efficiency was in the 85% range according to the sticker on the side. I need to take another look at it and take a picture to get the exact info (last I looked at it was nearly a month ago).

Heat output divided by heat input equals unit efficiency. 82,000 btu input at 80% equals 65,600 btu output.

Anybody have any idea how much the efficiency drops on propane rather than natural gas?

Efficiency does not change to any measurable amount when going form natural gas to propane, provided the proper burner modifications are made to the unit. Propane has roughly 2.4 times as much heat energy per cubic foot as compared to natural gas.

How about how the price of propane compares to gas?

Pricing varies a huge amount based on supplier, amount of use, length of contract, etc. Check locally for a price.

How about how long it would run on a 100lb tank (24x30x8 garage, fully insulated, programmable thermostat to turn it down at night, no need to keep it higher than 60 degrees or so when working)?

Impossible to determine without performing a load calculation.

As always, offered only as opinion

HoosierBuddy · Oct 25, 2009

Stinger said:
Thanks for all of the info. They all indicated the line needed to be somewhere between 18-24" deep.

You guys are convincing me to convert to propane and put a tank behind the garage. I really don't want to tear up the lawn as it took years to get the grass the way it is (roots are nearly 10" down into the ground at this point).

The heater says it is 82000 btu in and something like 48000 btu out and efficiency was in the 85% range according to the sticker on the side. I need to take another look at it and take a picture to get the exact info (last I looked at it was nearly a month ago).

Anybody have any idea how much the efficiency drops on propane rather than natural gas?

How about how the price of propane compares to gas?

How about how long it would run on a 100lb tank (24x30x8 garage, fully insulated, programmable thermostat to turn it down at night, no need to keep it higher than 60 degrees or so when working)?

You don't want to go propane. The efficiency is the same, but it will cost a lot more, especially if you are going to try to do it with 100# cylinders. It could easily be twice as much as natural gas.

The risers on each end of the 3/4" wholesale for about $40 each and 3/4" PE gas line runs about 20 cents a foot and a 3/4" gas stop costs about $20 and the 2 stab couplings you need are about $10 each and the tracer wire (14 gauge) last time I bought it was 8 cents, but I was buying 20,000 feet, so I likely got a better deal.

The previous poster that suggested you buy the material from your gas company are right on. Some will let you dig the ditch, measure it and call them with the correct end to end length and put it together for you. If you have them do it, you won't even need the stab couplings, as they'll probably **** fuse it with a heating iron.

If I was closer, I'd do it for you.

As far as the grass? If you really want to, you can remove your sod with a shovel, set it aside, dig your ditch, install your pipe, compact the ditch and then replace your sod. If the gas company buried a new serviceline to your home, DOT regulations would specify a minimum bury depth of 18" (cover over the pipe). So, shoot for 20 to 24 inches and you'll be fine. A small, walk behind trencher won't make a huge mess (like a backhoe would).

To the plumbers' defense, it is TOUGH to quote ditchline, because you hit rock or run into other problems, all of the sudden it can take 10 times as much time as you thought it would. If things go well, it should take an hour or two to dig your trench with a walk behind. Using a larger trencher, you might be able to do it in 10 to 15 minutes. It would take longer to get a big trencher on and off the trailer than it would take to dig it.

ANYWAY...call your natural gas provider. Ask to talk to a field person about running some outdoor natural gas line and ask them (probably a him) if he can help and see what you can find out.

Don't be surprised if they can set you right up.

After all, they want you to use their gas, right?

Oh...and as far as the directional boring machine to install the line? I think you'll find the price to do that will cause a heart attack. I've paid anywhere between $15 and $80 per foot depending upon line size and soil conditions.

Phil

p.s. looked at your picture again. Step 1 is call 811 and ask for utility locates. Step 2 is take down that small section of fence.

tatra · Oct 25, 2009

when i had my gas meter moved, they pushed a pipe to the newlocation...........maybe this is an option?.........

tdkkart · Oct 25, 2009

Many gas companies have a vibrating knife plow that will pull the line in with only a very small hole on each end, hardly makes a mark in the yard unless you've got some really tough soil. Check with them and see.

m289271 · Oct 25, 2009

One thing to keep in mind about propane; burning it generates alot of moisture. I use a propane wall heater when I'm working in my insulated garage and it creates a substantial amount of condensation. I don't think I would wanting it running 24/7. Maybe better ventilation would be the key.

Torque1st · Oct 25, 2009

m289271 said:
One thing to keep in mind about propane; burning it generates alot of moisture. I use a propane wall heater when I'm working in my insulated garage and it creates a substantial amount of condensation. I don't think I would wanting it running 24/7. Maybe better ventilation would be the key.

Burning most things creates a lot of moisture. There is a difference between vented and ventless heaters. The latter throw all of that moisture and fumes into your shop.

Stinger · Oct 25, 2009

I assume that wall heater isn't vented? If so, that's the cause of the moisture...

GeorgiaHybrid · Oct 25, 2009

With an 85% efficient heater, it has to be vented and moisture will not be a problem. A ventles heater is 100% efficient.

If you use a 100 gallon tank (that is what I have) you need to buy at least 2 fills a year and the tank fee is waived for the propane companies in this area. You fill at 25% and they will be filled to 75% or so. Mine lasts a long time at low heat levels. I would have used natural gas when we built the house but it is not available out here in the sticks.

For the $2,000 difference, you can buy a LOT of propane. Just make sure the burners are changed over to propane. It will cost more than natural gas in the long run and it just depends on how long you plan on staying there as to the cost effectiveness.

Stinger · Oct 25, 2009

I've got a relative who delivers propane for a living and he knows of a few tanks for sale currently for a couple hundred dollars. They are 500 gallon tanks though which means I'd only need it filled every couple years most likely. I wish there was a way to estimate how much propane it will actually use so I'd know how small of a tank I could get away with...I'd really like to use a 100 or 200 gallon tank but I don't want to have to call every couple months for a refill either.

Speed-Racer · Oct 25, 2009

Take a look at www.tracpipe.com, really high quality SS gas line. You can purchase this locally if you take a short class or via ebay/online. Our licensed installer showed me how to make the connections, really easy and I would recommend this product, they have a product that can be buried. How did you run the electrical? Maybe look for a shorter run in front of the fence. The last thought is a lot of propane can be purchased for $2000.

They

scottybaccus · Oct 26, 2009

I spent about 6 years of my life operating a company installing underground utilities. I saw one post here having half an idea of what all is involved for a contractor. Have you ever dug a 30" deep trench? If your local or state regulations dictate 24" of cover, you will need 30" deep to ensure adequate coverage with variations in grade across the lot. Trenchers cut as deep as you set them to, but rarely do they actually clean the material out deep enough to lay the pipe. That's why they make trenching shovels. I have never worked in a zone that did not also require sanding the pipe in the ditch before cover. This is to ensure no sharp objects damage the pipe on backfill and that future digging near the pipe has a visual clue that it is there. The sand alone to cover 150+ feet of pipe with 4-6" of clean sand will run a few hundred to purchase deliver and apply. Once sanded, and inspected again, you usually need to backfill to within 6" of grade and add caution tape, get another inspection, then finish the fill, fix the yard and haul out any excess fill displaced by the sand. Then you have the crossing of the other utilities. You can only get so close with a trencher, then you dig by hand. Ever dig 30" deep in a 4" wide trench around electric line, phone line, water, sewer? Do you have trenching shovels, digging bars, maybe you won't need a jackhammer. Now imagine if you break one. Living through the electric would be the big worry, but right behind that is the phone concern. Don't expect that the only lines on the lot are your and your neighbors drops. There are many, many unknown distibution lines under our yards, streets and homes. I cut a 900 pair phone line with a trencher once. Wasn't properly marked. Repair cost was $150K. (sure glad we had insurance, lawyers and lots of pictures) Even if you do have a locator come out, he needs to be very good at marking things. If he is wrong, he will be liable, but you will have to pay the repairs, then get your money back. Have insurance for that? Attorney on retainer? Who will warranty the work if you do it yourself? What if a leak develops undetected one night six months from now? It may light off while you're at work, or it could just cloud in the yard and ashyxiate the kid next door.

I think you were quoted fair prices with an expected range of pricing. Get some references and choose one, or you can play the lotto.

Getting Insane Quotes for Running Natural Gas to Garage...Solution?

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