results of my research on Made in USA / California law

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

Ok, so I called and talked at length with Snap on and Leatherman, both companies I recently purchased significant amounts from (considering my small time status as a hobby wrencher).. Anyway..

It seems that there is a California law on the books that has been upheld in court in a challenge as it relates to labeling items "Made in USA".. The law requires that 100% of the items, and material be of US origin. This is (as we all know, nearly impossible).. Companies like Fender Guitar (which I have two ) make a guitar 100% in the US, using US made screws, wire and most of the woods, but if they source the rosewood neck wood from Brazil or Africa, it's technically not legal to mark it "made in USA"

This is Dumb.. (pardon the simple term).. :lol_hitti

I am the first to defend that we need to make more here, and certainly a lot less in China.. but for Leatherman to source a two items from Switzerland and Austria, and finish the Pliers in Mexico, but be unable to put down "Made in USA" on their tools, when 80%+ of the time invested in making it is US, is a bit much... The law should be amended to be 75% or even less... so long as the "majority" of labor is US, that should be good.. Just require that the rest of the content also be listed.. I.E. Made in USA, of 90% US, 5% Swiss, and 3% Mexico and 2% Austrian parts/labor. This kind of information is readily available for all items a company makes as a part of their "Cost accounting" procedures and would cost them next to nothing to print on a box.

My Snap on CT6850 and CDR6850 (both power tools) are also similarly not marked Made in USA for the same reason, as are my openend/ratcheting SOEX and 80 tooth ratchets.. Even though the majority of the tool, and it's assembly is of US origin, the fraction that is not is the cause of the lack of a USA label..

What do you all think? Am I being overly naive in thinking that it's a bit too much?

I personally don't care if there is some EU or Japan content to a tool, it's the China and Mexico that I get a bit upset about, and if it's disclosed as a small %, I am ok with still marking the tool USA.

Discuss..

Monte · Dec 7, 2009

MD11 said:
I.E. Made in USA, of 90% US, 5% Swiss, and 3% Mexico and 2% Austrian parts/labor.

could be difficult.... How do you want to calculate the percentage ?? Percentage of the amount of parts ? percentage of the value of the parts ??
And what about complicated products like cordless drills ?? So you receive the motor from japan. Then the Motor itself must also state where the copper is from, the brushes, the bearings etc. So this info you`ll also have to display on the sticker on the outside of the tool... could be large stickers then.... 20 x 20 cm ...

.... and when the screw supplier change you have to throw all printed stickers away and print new ones, or the manufacturer of part "x" forget to inform you that the source changed and then you have to recall 1000000 drills because the stickers are wrong so you don`t get sued.......... In real life it wouldn`t work i think......

Mike83 · Dec 7, 2009

I think it would be difficult to assign a percentage to the domestic material and labor put into the product. Would you do it by weight? By cost? By hours? There are so many factors that affect the "percentage" of USA made in an item.

tonydanzah · Dec 7, 2009

I disagree, for an item to be badged made in usa, then it need to be made in usa. From start to finish. An item that is assembled in mexico doesn't sound like it is made in the usa.

srmofo · Dec 7, 2009

they could just label it "mostly made in usa" .i would be ok with that.

tpolley · Dec 7, 2009

i think thats why we are now seeing "made in usa of global components"

Zrexxer · Dec 7, 2009

MD11 said:
It seems that there is a California law on the books that has been upheld in court in a challenge as it relates to labeling items "Made in USA"..

Neither Snap On or Leatherman is a California company, so I'm at a loss what that has to do with them. Both however are regulated by the Federal Trade Commission requirements for labeling their products... To wit:

"For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.
What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content."

Ref: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

Well, first off.. don't misunderstand, I'm not saying we can call it made in the USA if it's only assembled here.. That would be "Assembled in the USA"... I'm saying that if a large percentage is (say 75%) or more, then it's labelled.

Also, companies keep detailed "Cost accounting" records of the content and labor cost, etc of everything they make. When I studied Finance in school 20 years ago, I took two classes on Managerial Accounting and Cost Accounting, both of which are specialized branches of finance (that all companies employ) to keep track of costs to the 1/1000th of percent..

Yes, you would have to draw the line as to the motor being from Japan in the US Made drill, but the wire in the motor might be from China, or Germany... but that could all easily be worked out as part of a more "Common sense" based labeling law.

Finally, Zrexxer, they may not be CA based companies, but they sell in CA, and as with car makers having to meet CA Emissions when they design a car, same applies... their other choice is to not sell in that state, but then they'd be shutting out the largest economy by far of the US States, and at last I checked, 7th or 8th largest in the world.. not gonna happen.

chevy302dz · Dec 7, 2009

If something is labeled made in the USA it should be made here period. I will however grant you there should be a exception when a product is made here but made out of a natural material that dosen't grow here such as in your guitar example.

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

chevy302dz said:
If something is labeled made in the USA it should be made here period. I will however grant you there should be a exception when a product is made here but made out of a natural material that dosen't grow here such as in your guitar example.

ok, fair enough, so you agree with the California Law.. I guess it's why we have freedom, so we can all disagree.

I'm just being a bit more pragmatic I guess, with the reality of the global economy, it's going to be near impossible for anything of any complexity to be 100% US made... A hammer, sure.. even a knife, but when you start going into many parts and especially electronic parts, it means nothing will be labeled Made in USA.. With that said, I support maybe a "Mostly Made in USA" or "Made in USA, of US and foreign parts" etc.. but the current way of doing things, such as the Snapon and Leatherman examples I gave are odd to me.. (and yes, I don't expect that they'll stencil or imprint "Made in USA of mostly US Parts" onto my wrenches!

tonydanzah · Dec 7, 2009

A little off topic but along the lines. A few years ago mercedes stated changing their vin code so cars made in the us plant had the same code as cars made in the german plant. Their reason of thinking was the cars made here had the same quality of build as the cars made in Germany. The federal government stepped in and said woah woah woah. You cannot do that. So it works both ways.

mkdive · Dec 7, 2009

I think "made in USA" should be a 100% all or nothing term. If any parts came from elsewhere...... then in my book it shouldn't qualify to have the stamp, decal engraving etc.

my ......

X1 Mike · Dec 7, 2009

I'm just waiting until the first tool I see with USA in big bold letters, then right above it "Shipped to a port in the" :lol_hitti

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

tonydanzah said:
A little off topic but along the lines. A few years ago mercedes stated changing their vin code so cars made in the us plant had the same code as cars made in the german plant. Their reason of thinking was the cars made here had the same quality of build as the cars made in Germany. The federal government stepped in and said woah woah woah. You cannot do that. So it works both ways.

Except (and as a Mercedes and BMW owner, one of which is US built and the other German build).. I want my German car made in Germany if I can help it, but it's not a deal breaker if it's US or even Canadian or other EU made.

No offense to American car buffs (I love the 60's and earlier American's as much as the next guy btw); besides a Pickup truck where we still make the best, I won't buy anything from the Detroit makers for a lot of reasons that are outside the scope of this thread...

I think the quality "can" be the same however with US and German production (in today's world where Germans are using 50% migrant labor anyway).. and my BMW proves it, made in NC, while my Benz is German, and both have impecable fit and finish, chassis, and power plant... that's not because the assembly line worker wills it so, its' because in Germany at least for now, Engineers still call the shots in car design, not bean counters.. :wtf:

But this is a prime example of "Globalized" markets and labels.. SURE, my X5 is "Made in USA" but its' made 99% of German parts... so is it German or American? I say its' German.

wellstig1 · Dec 7, 2009

I just noticed today that all my dual 80 ratchets do not say USA on them. However, 1 of them does. Pretty disappointed at this, i would really like to know what or how much of these ratchets are made in another country.

metal1313 · Dec 7, 2009

one of the things i never seen anyone bring up in these threads is if your so into american made only, from start to finish, would you be happy if they built a massive plastic or tool plant up wind from you? now i love to buy american when i can , and can afford to do so, but there are alot of items i feel have been pushed off shore by greed and public out cry.

now if the majority of something is made here, and especially if its a proprietary process it should be american made, and yes there are some things we just should not import..case/point US flags should not be made in china.

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

Well I think there are two schools of though on this Metal..

-Buy American only

-Don't buy from 3rd world, especially China

I belong to the 2nd one, as I don't have a problem doing trade with other nations that pay their workers well and treat them with dignity.

I highly respect the buy USA crowd, but I think it's unrealistic for me to do since I like to get the best I can afford, and sometimes that means Germany, France, or Japan.. etc.. But even if the item is perfect and I have a choice, I won't buy it from China.

Get it?

Monte · Dec 7, 2009

MD11 said:
(in today's world where Germans are using 50% migrant labor anyway).

So you`re saying only germans should work or put things together and then its german ?? Is a german passport enough to qualify or a bloodline which can be traced back to the 17th or 18th century ? :headscrat

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

Monte said:
So you`re saying only germans should work or put things together and then its german ?? Is a german passport enough to qualify or a bloodline which can be traced back to the 17th or 18th century ?

well, I understand the complex history of Germany, Germania and the Holy Roman Empire.. Austriohungarian Empire, etc.. So no we're not going to go down that road... BUT... I would simply say, German citizen..

However, I know for a fact (or so my dealer tells me), that MB had a problem with wiring harnesses on the W211 (E class, of which I have one) that was traced to a Romanian assembly line worker who instead of feeding the wiring harness thru the firewall carefully and slowly, was yanking them thru (causing all kinds of problems due to chafing, etc..) that lead to the recall of more than 10,000 cars.. This worker apparently hardly understood German and didn't understand the instructions of how to feed the harness... Whether this is true or not; I take the word of my dealer's service rep, but I know it's the story my dealer gave me when they had to take my car apart for two days to replace this harness..

But like I said, this can happen anywhere ... even in NC.. it's up to the engineers who design the cars and the production process to make it so the assembly line worker has little work to do in order to build the car "correctly"..

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

btw, if anyone wants to specifically ask a SO executive where something comes from, I would this this is a perfect place to start:

http://www1.snapon.com/display/DocMgmtDisplayFile.aspx?fileid=8908

7echo · Dec 7, 2009

Having the Made in US logo is nice but I wonder what percentage of things would qualify if the rule is 100% sourced and assembled. And maybe that is OK, but going forward there will be less and less things that qualify. Major manufacturing is not going to make a big comeback here in the near future, and maybe never. To be competitive a business will have to purchase the least expensive part/material that meets their quality standard(could be low or high) and lots of that will involve 'grunt' work that does not happen here any longer.

China and other Pacific rim countries will soon be replaced with cheap labor from elsewhere. The next place will likely be Africa-lots of cheap labor there.

mkdive · Dec 7, 2009

MD11, I'm the same way I guess, I wouldn't want our M5 if it wasn't made in Germany....period.

MD11 · Dec 7, 2009

mkdive said:
MD11, I'm the same way I guess, I wouldn't want our M5 if it wasn't made in Germany....period.

ESPECIALLY an M5! :drool:

Merkava_4 · Dec 7, 2009

These days if I see "Assembled in USA of Global Components," I'm usually pretty happy with that.

I'll give you an example:

My SkilSaw says "Assembled in USA of Global Components" on the box, and then it has a "Made In USA" sticker on the saw. Long story short, I found out that only the blade is made in China.

My definition of "Made In USA" should mean that all the materials used to make the product as well as all the labor to make the product should be done on USA soil.

My gut feeling tells me that the Snap-on F80 has some or all of its internal parts made in Japan with the body being 100% made in the USA. That's ok by me.

oldtools · Dec 8, 2009

metal1313 said:
.....there are some things we just should not import..case/point US flags should not be made in china.

That is so ironic. It would be even more ironic if Chinese flags are made in the US with "Made in USA" on it.

ericg · Dec 8, 2009

MD11, I was hoping that you could clear up some confusion for me. I went to the FTC website and it really makes the waters muddy. They use an example of a bar b que grill that has everything except the knobs and tubing made in the USA. They say that since the knobs and tubing are negligible therefore
a claim of Made in USA would not be deceptive. Now as an example, if the SO Dual 80 ratchet does not say Made in USA, can we assume that more than a negligible portion of the ratchet is imported? What confuses me is that all of the other SO series of ratchets are stamped Made in the USA. What could be imported in the Dual 80's? I think that you have brought a sense of awaeness to everyone by your survey. I just purchased a SHLF80 from SO and I made sure to look at the country of origin before I made the purchase as many SO and Blue Point items have China as a country of origin. I guess I learned something today, that a country of origin being USA means nothing but a way for SO and other manufacturers to scam us. It is truly a shame. Thank you for your efforts.

Eric

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm#Other Statutes

MD11 · Dec 8, 2009

ericg said:
MD11, I was hoping that you could clear up some confusion for me. I went to the FTC website and it really makes the waters muddy. They use an example of a bar b que grill that has everything except the knobs and tubing made in the USA. They say that since the knobs and tubing are negligible therefore
a claim of Made in USA would not be deceptive. Now as an example, if the SO Dual 80 ratchet does not say Made in USA, can we assume that more than a negligible portion of the ratchet is imported? What confuses me is that all of the other SO series of ratchets are stamped Made in the USA. What could be imported in the Dual 80's? I think that you have brought a sense of awareness to everyone by your survey. I just purchased a SHLF80 from SO and I made sure to look at the country of origin before I made the purchase as many SO and Blue Point items have China as a country of origin. I guess I learned something today, that a country of origin being USA means nothing but a way for SO and other manufacturers to scam us. It is truly a shame. Thank you for your efforts.

Eric

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm#Other Statutes

Thanks first off for the compliment, but I've read places where others here tried to dig this up as well, I just happened to be lucky to get someone on the phone that was somewhat honest!

The FTC regulations are looser than the California regulations... such that if a "negligible" part of a tool is not US made, it can still be labeled USA. Were this the law in all 50 states, the Snapon 80 tooth ratchets would likely be labeled USA.. HOWEVER, in California, there is a state law that requires 100% of the item to be made in USA of US materials and as such, since Snap On can't make a set of wrenches for California and one set for the other 49 states, they must meet the most stringent law, which is the CA law.

I think these laws are great btw and I'm surprised in the EU they're not more common. The outrage that is generated by consumers might just save someone's job! Even if its' at the cost of a CEO's bonus check! :spit:

Monte · Dec 8, 2009

Actually in the EU they wanted to put "made in EU" on everything instead of a country so everybody has the same chance on the market.

american lockpicker · Dec 8, 2009

I'm glad the definition for made in USA is so strict. Look at Swiss made its rather vague.

Jaguar Fan · Dec 8, 2009

On Black Friday at the mall I saw leather jackets for sale where each very large tags (maybe 5" by 5") with a large US flag & it said 100% American in large lettering.

I was curious... and then saw in tiny lettering "100% American Cow Hides" but that it was manufactured overseas.

Pretty sleazy IMHO.

Monte · Dec 8, 2009

PS: If something says "Made in America" does it mean always USA ??? Because Canada and Mexico for example are also in America.......and there is a south america too......

Jaguar Fan · Dec 8, 2009

Sometimes taxes get in the picture. The following isn't tool related, but it illustrates the issue.

The IRS taxes manufacturing activity differently from assembly activity. So, it is very common for more complex products to have components "manufactured" in one tax jurisdiction and then shipped to another for "final assembly" (even if all the labor costs etc are the same) so as to optimize for taxes.

Take semiconductor manufacturing - a very complex process but it can be broken into two major chunks:

a silicon ingot is sliced into 300mm diameter very thin wafers, and each wafer goes through complex processes to imprint billions of transistors on them.
the wafer is shipped to a plant that uses ultra precise techniques to cut each wafer into slivers of silicon the size of your fingernail called "die", each of which is rigorously tested (only a fraction pass), and the good die are then put into a ceramic chip packages that have have all the necessary wire connections attached, etc etc.

Because the IRS taxes the result of "manufacturing" differently from the result of "assembly", the wafer fabs are in places like Ireland and New Mexico and the rest is done in "assembly & test" factories in places like Malaysia.

In this case it is almost all driven by the USA tax code.

The IRS will go after a company if, for tax purposes, they "assemble" something when in their marketing material they say it is "made".

american lockpicker · Dec 8, 2009

I seen some super glue yesterday with a US flag on the package on the back it said "packaged in USA".

MD11 · Dec 8, 2009

american lockpicker said:
I'm glad the definition for made in USA is so strict. Look at Swiss made its rather vague.

Not so sure about that... I know at least with their watch industry, it's VERY strict.. The Swiss don't want "Swiss made" slapped on just anything... they have a reputation even the Germans envy for workmanship to preserve!

tube_guy · Dec 8, 2009

I think that it is quite important for the future of US based manufacturing that the most strict guidlines be adopted for marking a product with the Made in USA label. If that label gets diluted, and it becomes easier to mark a product Made in USA, companies that really do make their product 100% in the USA are at a significant disadvantage in the marketplace. When a customer is comparing two products labeled Made in USA, they won't know that a more expensive product was made here in its entirety and only a much smaller portion of a cheaper product was made here. They are both labeled Made in USA. Diluting requirements to label a product Made in USA would tend to promote less and less USA manufacturing by forcing companies to offshore some items so they can remain cost competitive.

If a manufacturer wants to label their product with various percentages, or list parts and their country of origin, that's fine with me. But to simply mark something Made in USA, should mean that it was Made in the USA in its entirety, and that's it.

american lockpicker · Dec 8, 2009

MD11 said:
Not so sure about that... I know at least with their watch industry, it's VERY strict.. The Swiss don't want "Swiss made" slapped on just anything... they have a reputation even the Germans envy for workmanship to preserve!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made#The_50.25_Rule_for_Swiss_Made_Watches

t100 · Dec 8, 2009

just to extend this topic a bit further. what qualifies "Assembled in U.S.A." is there a certain minimum percentage involved?

for example, regarding reply #47 in this thread:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49561&page=3
"When I was in the recruiters for the US Army last year I noticed their dell computers said Assembled in USA. "

there re probable 50 parts in a common desktop computer, none in my knowledge is made in U.S., you can assemble every parts here, that requires about 45 minutes of American labor to finish the assembly. or you can have everything assembled overseas, then leave just the screws out on the case, which requires about 20 seconds of American labor.

are they both good for "Assembled in U.S.A."?

Monte · Dec 8, 2009

so 50% of the watch movement must be made in switzerland, and the watch be assembled, rest can be imported ?
In Germany we have the well known "Glashütte" origin mark for watches with similar regulations to "swiss made".

norry · Dec 8, 2009

american lockpicker said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made#The_50.25_Rule_for_Swiss_Made_Watches

Very interesting - that "50% of the value" seems open to debate, given that you could say that for a basic watch costing $20 to assemble:

- $10 worth of labor in China (pretty much the entire assembly)
- $10 worth of labor in Switzerland (a few final steps)

Eek!

BTW, for whoever was asking about the F80, Snap-on is still listing country of origin for those as USA. Would be interested to know the details behind their decision to remove the COO marking, though.

ericg · Dec 8, 2009

MD11, as a mid fifty year old, I find myself more and more frustrated with companies that supply not just tools, but any other commodity as well. I have no problem paying for a good quality item but it is obviously not an issue of money anymore since the deception is so wide spread in all trades. I would still like to know what parts of a SO Dual 80 ratchet are outsourced. I love the Dual 80 ratchets and considering what is out there, they are still a great tool. Thanks again for all of your help. Like Sy Sym's says and I quote "An educated consumer is our best customer." You have gone a long way to educate the members of this forum and I thank you for that.

Eric

results of my research on Made in USA / California law

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