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Two post lift - plumbness

tufffordtruck

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Jul 21, 2008
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Charleston, WV
How plumb does a two post assymetric lift need to be? How critical is it to be perfect? I bought a used lift which did not come with shims. I anchored it down without shims to check for plumb. One post may be out 1/2"-3/4" or so from top to bottom. Does anyone see why this would be unaccaptable?
 
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rburke65

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Nov 10, 2007
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Canfield, Ohio
I would think plumb is good. Shim with something like a paint stick get you close, just so you get a better idea of the thichness that you need to get it plumb...then you should at least be able to go to Home Depot or where ever and buy some flat stock to get the job dome............IMO
 

walrus

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Maine
Does anyone see why this would be unaccaptable?

I would say yes, you want the center of gravity pushing directly down on the floor, if its not plumb I don't see how that happens. You also don't want the lift arms moving in or out as the vehicle goes up
 

JSK

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Southern CA
This is always an interesting discussion. Here’s my two cents.

What’s more important, level columns or level pads? I adamantly advise the latter. In the event your floor is perfectly level, then by all means, make sure the columns are plumb. However, what if there is a slight pitch in (or is it on?) the floor? Many, if not most garage floors will be sloped. I recently visited a shop with a newly installed two-post lift standing. While one installer was gathering up tools, the other was standing by proud of the job they just finished. The boss man ran and grabbed a 48” level and threw it on the side of the columns, gleaming with pride. I took a peak down at the lift pads and noticed that the left pads were about 2” higher than the right pads. Sure the columns were plumb, but the pads sure weren’t. There was a slope in the floor.

If you plumb your columns to a sloped floor, your pads are going to be unlevel. Not really smart. The columns need to be parallel and the pads should be as close to level with one another as they can be.

In the case above, I would loosen the anchors, push, then shim the left column inward ever so slightly to lower the left pads HALF THE DIFFERENCE. I would then push OUT and shim the right column to elevate those pads to meet the left pads.

Try this…
• Shim the columns until you get the pads level with one another.
• Check to see how plumb the columns are but don’t be too critical as long as they are PARALLEL.
• To double check that they are parallel, lower the lift to the floor, spread the front arms to full extension so that they are pointing directly at each other. Take a measurement from the center of the left front pad to the center of the right front pad. Let’s call it 12”. Raise the lift to full height and check to make sure the 12” is retained.

THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR FLOORS THAT HAVE CONSIDERABLE PITCH AND/OR REQUIRE MORE THAN ONE-HALF INCH OF SHIMS.

Jeff
BendPak
 

larry_g

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oregon
This is always an interesting discussion. Here’s my two cents.

What’s more important, level columns or level pads? I adamantly advise the latter.

If you plumb your columns to a sloped floor, your pads are going to be unlevel. Not really smart. The columns need to be parallel and the pads should be as close to level with one another as they can be.

In the case above, I would loosen the anchors, push, then shim the left column inward ever so slightly to lower the left pads HALF THE DIFFERENCE. I would then push OUT and shim the right column to elevate those pads to meet the left pads.

Try this…
• Shim the columns until you get the pads level with one another.
• Check to see how plumb the columns are but don’t be too critical as long as they are PARALLEL.
• To double check that they are parallel, lower the lift to the floor, spread the front arms to full extension so that they are pointing directly at each other. Take a measurement from the center of the left front pad to the center of the right front pad. Let’s call it 12”. Raise the lift to full height and check to make sure the 12” is retained.

THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR FLOORS THAT HAVE CONSIDERABLE PITCH AND/OR REQUIRE MORE THAN ONE-HALF INCH OF SHIMS.

Jeff
BendPak

Jeff

I have a problem with your advise in that you you are confusing level, plumb, and perpendicular. Level and plumb are referenced to gravity and have nothing to do with the floor. When you say "If you plumb your columns to a sloped floor" you are actually refering to perpendicular to the floor I think. The posts need to be plumb to keep the floor bolts from being put in excess tension as I'm sure the system is not designed for this. The posts do need to be parallel to each other as you say and also have to coplaner to each other, or not leaning forward or backward to each other. Now it the posts are set plumb in two directions the lift arms should be level provided the arms are adjusted correctly and move in sync.

lg
no neat sig line
 
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rasit

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I gotta agree with Larry. The goal should be to get the posts plumb both ways and parallel to each other regardless of what the floor is doing. Once that is accomplished the last thing I would do is provide full bearing shims under each post. Another more precise method (which I'm sure many here will disagree with) is to use all-thread, epoxy anchored into the floor, and double nut the post. By this I mean one nut under and one nut on top of the posts at each anchor point. Adjust and tighten the nuts to get each post plumb and then fill the gap (1"+-) at the floor with non-shrink grout. Millwrights use this method thoughout the construction industry to set everything from 100' flagpoles to 100 ton precision machinery in factories. There's my 2 cents..........
 

JSK

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Nov 16, 2007
Messages
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Location
Southern CA
Gentlemen,

Good comments, but I was talking in general lift installation language. I understand the difference between the terms level, plumb and perpendicular, but field language has a way of evolving.

The majority of lift installers will use the term level when talking about runway type lifts, runways level, cross tubes level etc., and plumb when talking about two-posts. Perpendicular is rarely used. When plumb is used, it's usually both directions, with a level, and the bubble neatly between the lines, gravity.

Perpendicular columns to a sloped floor would result in un-plumb columns and unlevel pads just as plumb columns on a sloped floor will also result in unlevel pads (relative to left and right pads respectively) – assuming you did not raise the low side column.

Let’s assume our subject floor has a one-inch slope east to west with the high side being on the right column. (My comments are not related to floor sloping from front to back or vice versa. Mainly lateral slopes that have a way of dramatically affecting pad height due to the lateral outreach of the lift arms). We’ll assume the overall width on our subject floor is 12-feet at outside of base plate for the floor plan. That would be less than 1/8” of slope every foot. Could easily be perceived as a normal floor.

We have three options…

• Install the lift directly on the surface and shim only as necessary to plumb the columns. In this case, your lift pads would be one inch off – right to left. Assuming where your arms are positioned on the vehicle and the distance between pads, that one-inch could translate to dramatically sloped loading.

• Install the high side (right) column directly on the surface and elevate the low side (left) column an additional one inch with steel shim plates and Quikrete. Plumb both as required. In this case, even though the floor is sloped one inch, the columns would be installed plumb and the lift pads would be equal. This may be considered the “correct” way to do it, however you now would have 25% less embedment on the anchor bolts assuming longer ones were not purchased, and you would have different pad heights relative to floor surface with respect to vehicles sitting on the floor. You may squeak a lift pad under the right side of the car, but find out the left side pad is too high for your ground hugger.

• Third way – as I attempted to describe in previous post with final outcome being level pads and parallel columns.

I reviewed some engineering calculations assuming a 12,000-pound capacity two-post floor-plate model (with no top beam) – a kind of worst case. A ½” shim on the outside edge (or inside edge) of the base plate would cause the base plate to be at a 1.35-degree angle with respect to the floor. Lifts with smaller base plates more – maybe 1.75 degrees. A shim that thick would adjust the pad height position considerably - at least 2” of vertical movement just on the one column side. That is why in most cases, shims no thicker than 3/16” are all that is ever required to adjust pad height.

Assume a 12K two-post floor-plate model has been shimmed ½” on just one edge of the base plate only and is angled about 1.35 degrees based on the dimension of the typically sized base plate. Assume it has an arm that measures 45.1” to the center of the lift pad from the main column centerline when loaded. NOTE: The arm may be longer, but when positioned as it would be during vehicle lifting, the pad would be approximately 45.1” from the main column centerline = moment. The column will also be tilted 1.35 degrees with respect to vertical. When fully raised, the lift head is 75.6” above the floor and the arms move horizontally 1.78" from their original position. The moment arm has increased from 45.1” to 46.9” which is an increase of 4.0%. Due to the moment arm increasing 4%, the column bending moment arm will also increase by 4 %. Therefore, the moment applied to the column and transmitted to the base plate will increase 4%. A 4% additional moment load would increase the anchor bolt tension load from 2772 lbs to 2882 lbs. A single Wej-It 3/4” anchor bolt embedded 5” deep in 3000PSI concrete would have a rated tension capacity of 12,000 pounds or more. Two post lifts with a top beam would have less of a bending moment penalty due to shimming. Main lift structural components would be virtually unaffected by this slight increase in moment loading.

Bottom line, raising vehicles not perfectly centered between your columns will add more stress on the column, base plates, and anchors, than shimming out of plumb a degree or two. Either case, the stresses are very minimal. (At least on ETL certified lifts or those designed with similar criteria.) Two-post lifts rarely need shims greater than 1/4" thick, but you would be surprised what affect even the slightest shimming has on pad height adjustment.

Jeff
BendPak
 
Last edited:

larry_g

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"If you plumb your columns to a sloped floor, your pads are going to be unlevel."

Jeff
I got hung up on the above statement you made. After years of erecting machinery that statement screamed BS to me. I now realize you may know what you’re talking about but you have to be careful that the audience you’re talking to may not know "general lift installation language" and have other backgrounds. A degree out of plumb would fail a lot of installations I have worked on.

lg
no neat sig line
 

JSK

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Southern CA
"If you plumb your columns to a sloped floor, your pads are going to be unlevel."

Jeff
I got hung up on the above statement you made. After years of erecting machinery that statement screamed BS to me. I now realize you may know what you’re talking about but you have to be careful that the audience you’re talking to may not know "general lift installation language" and have other backgrounds. A degree out of plumb would fail a lot of installations I have worked on.

lg
no neat sig line

Larry,

I can see how some could get confused - my bad. As always, the readers on this forum impress the heck out of me with their knowledge. You're another great example - great contribution. Opinions and suggestions from so many different industries, skill sets and point of views. It’s quite literally a great big smorgasbord of talent. That's why I wanted to take a little more time and try explaining a little more thoroughly this go-around. As I’m writing this, I’m humoring myself over the famous words of wisdom…”I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”

JSK
 

willymakeit

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Apr 27, 2009
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Springfield Mo.
As was mentioned above the non shrink grout and double nuts in my area is the most common. If the pads are welded to the columns square they will be parallel with the grout/ floor. This based on a plumb application.
 

rasit

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SE Pennsylvania
Gentlemen,

Perpendicular columns to a sloped floor would result in un-plumb columns and unlevel pads just as plumb columns on a sloped floor will also result in unlevel pads (relative to left and right pads respectively) – assuming you did not raise the low side column.

Let’s assume our subject floor has a one-inch slope...........

Jeff
BendPak

Thanks for digging into it. I never would have put that much thought into it and don't normally make too many assumptions. I'm a simple guy so ... install the vertical posts plumb, parallel and perpendicular to each other regardless of what the floor is doing. If you accomplish this, the force from the weight of the vehicle will be directed evenly to the bearing surface of the floor plates. By anchoring the plates with all-thread and double nut method and filling any gaps under the bearing plates with a non shrink grout the load will then be evenly distributed to both the nuts installed under the bearing plates and the floor. The length of all-thread can be adjusted to ensure proper embedment into the floor. Hilti has a complete epoxy resin anchoring system with stainless steel rod that works great. Keligrout is another high strength polyester resin anchoring material.
 

saabman

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Oct 8, 2009
Messages
594
Location
Sebago Lake, Maine
The effect of the slope on the pads will depend on the orientation of the slope to the orientation of the columns. Also, wont the cable equalizers be adjusted to take care of micro side to side height disparity on the arms/pads. On my floor when the arms are fully down one of them binds on the floor. NTW, once they lift the lift begins are all even and more importantly when the car is in the air they are level. A big level can be used from front arm to back arm and from left arms to right arms. I still hold the if the columns are plumb (this is relative to a gravity plane) then they should be a uniform distance from each other at bottom, middle, and top. Plumb does not tell you if each column has the same setback (from the garage opening for example)

Disclaimner: I am not an installer, just a race car/hobbyist mechanic.

Chris
 
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