Small Metal Lathe/Mill Experience, best bang for the buck?

enginerd · Mar 2, 2007

I've only had experience with higher end large cnc/nc/manual mill/lathes, but i'm looking for something for a home shop for auto-racing related machining, so nothing too crazy needed. Also interested to see what people have for small Mills, again Hobby style application, so nothing crazy needed.

Manufacturer/distirbutor experience?

I like what Grizzly has. They have this new lathe, under $1k and it looks pretty good.

Anyone have experience with a comparable small metal lathe?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0602

And here is the Mill from Grizzly I was looking at, just over $1100, 2hp.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G3358

chad s · Mar 2, 2007

I have a 1932 8" Jr. South Bend, and I love it. I also have a tiny Sherline, which was my first lathe, and its quite accurate, but amazingly, the 75 year old South Bend is even more accurate. Are you looking for new or used? Used lathes can be a great deal, or a total headache. Condition is extremely important, and bed wear, spindle wear, ways wear are all factors, and having ways re-scraped is pricey. Wind up with a bad machine, and you will be miserable. I have never used any of the imported machines, but it seems some are terrible and some are quite nice. I have heard good things about the Grizzly line. I would definately do some research on ww.practicalmachinist.com .

-lecroix- · Mar 2, 2007

You can take this with a grain of salt, but I sell machine tools for a living. My advice is:Save your money and find yourself an older South Bend lathe and a Bridgeport knee mill.

enginerd · Mar 2, 2007

Well, moreso looking for a "table top" style, aka hobby size, Mill & lathe, like the ones I posted.

I was forced to use a Smittybuilt Lathe/mill combo at a former employer for prototype work, and it was pretty lame. Machine worked fine, just a pain to use and maintain.

Not looking to take up much space (even though its a huge garage/shop), but I just don't need any huge machines for the work I'll be doing. I outsource my CNC needs to friends shop when needed. The Mill will see a lot less use than the lathe...Lathe would be used a lot more use for bearing cups/bushings/etc.

I am looking to buy new, not used.

Any other personal experience with these machines?

-lecroix- · Mar 2, 2007

For what it's worth, the Grizzly, Smitty, and Harbor Freight stuff is all made by the same company in China.

wilbilt · Mar 2, 2007

enginerd said:
And here is the Mill from Grizzly I was looking at, just over $1100, 2hp.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G3358

It's the same as HF, or Enco, or anyone else.

Put your hand on one, and see what you think about the backlash in all axes.

-lecroix- · Mar 2, 2007

Wilbit is right, but there is no real need to even put a hand on one of the handles, just grab the table and pull front to back ... it's NOT suppose to move AT ALL ... they do ... a LOT.

enginerd · Mar 2, 2007

Yep, I assumed they were "chinese quality", unfortunately, I don't want to spend $10k for something for this application.

Even with the smitty, if you work slow, you can get the tolerance you need. For the price, I think it would definitely do the job.

More concerned about the lathe than the Mill. I would not expect that mill to be anything more than a glorified benchtop drill press. However, for doing simple mill work when needed, majority would be rough cuts, and I'd fudge stuff for precision parts.

Price gets quality, and I doubt anything is out there in this price range (under $2500 for both) that would have even mediocre quality...but again, this is for the home/hobby shop/garage, not the .00001 precision equipment needed for he engineering work I do

If I need precision stuff done I just make the part in SW, and send it to friends CNC shop. These small machines in the home shop would just be used for small spacers, bushings, brackets, etc. Other than these couple very small CNC projects, 99% of the racecar I am doing in house. Only other part that is being outsourced is the carbon rear aerodynamics (wing assembly).

For some of the precision Suspension components I am designing for my racecar I farmed them out to a friends CNC shop. Here is an example, inner tubeframe control arm mount for the rear susp.

I also designed a Delrin Race Shift knob for BMW's that I had the same company make, for which they now are the distributor and manufacturer for. Fun small side project.

eschoendorff · Mar 3, 2007

Enginerd,

Sounds like you have already made up your mind. Let us know how it works out.

enginerd · Mar 3, 2007

Well, I have not made up my mind, but I know I am not getting very large expensive machines

I'm trying to see if anyone knows of a source for, well, "the best low quality" units haha. I know I won't be getting anything fantastic, but thats the point...no need to spend a fortune on something that won't be used for the applications its not made for. Maybe there is a company out there that I have not seen that makes a decent unit that happens to be affordable and fit for my application.

So, getting back to the original question: Does anyone have experience with such lathe/milles, and if so, please share. Thanks.

How about JET?

cranker · Mar 3, 2007

Have you looked at Taig yet? They are made in Arizona I believe. I have both the mill and the lathe and they work very well. I got them to make parts for one off Nitro powered RC cars when i raced them. I was very satisfied with them. www.taigtools.com

Crank

enginerd · Mar 3, 2007

I know about Taig, not right for this application. Need larger/beefier machines.

oldcarfart · Mar 3, 2007

-lecroix- said:
You can take this with a grain of salt, but I sell machine tools for a living. My advice is:Save your money and find yourself an older South Bend lathe and a Bridgeport knee mill.

do you sell used or just new?

-lecroix- · Mar 3, 2007

New -> Haas CNC

enginerd · Mar 3, 2007

I've used several Haas machines, they are very nice for the money...not sure about how the big production companies like them compared to some other top contenders, but they are definitely nice pieces of machinery, especially for the smaller, prototype shops.

Anyone know of a small (~7x14,>9x20) precision lathe thats made by a high end manufacturer, such as the one posted below?

I'd be willing to trade higher quality for a smaller machine, for slightly more money for this application.

Anyone ever heard of Top Tech or Super?

How about something like this, small but seems much higher quality, made in germany, but are those plastic gears?!

A review: http://www.ismg4tools.com/proreview.html
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=4796

Here is another one that looks "better" than those generic chinese models, any experience with Busy Bee? (Canadian)

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?&NETID=1936390303071366213&NTITEM=CT039

-lecroix- · Mar 3, 2007

I have several big production customers who have switched from Mori Seiki, Mazak and Okuma to Haas for their production parts. And love them.

I worked for the Southeastern U.S. Okuma distributor before leaving and going to work with Haas. Don't get me wrong, Okuma is a great machine, but the switch I made was the best thing I ever did career-wise.

Concerning the picture above ... no offense, but I wouldn't consider a machine that used plastic/poly gears to be "high quality." Regardless of where it's made.

enginerd · Mar 4, 2007

Yea, I agree. Thats why I questioned it above, thats horrible if it uses plastic gearing.

I'll keep looking around. I'm also going to talk to some friends large machining centers and see if they are getting rid of any machinery, maybe I'll get lucky.

Thanks

wilbilt · Mar 4, 2007

My neighbor has a lathe that looks exactly like the "Busy Bee" you posted. His is from HF and is a pretty terrible machine. He got it cheap from a gunsmith that gave up on it.

I'm pretty sure the "A" grade parts are used for Jet and Grizzly machines, so they would probably be the best choices among the Chinese contenders. On the other hand, it would seem that Cummins gets their lathes out of HF's dumpsters.

-lecroix- · Mar 4, 2007

Keep an eye on Ebay/Craig's List/Local auctions/Classifieds for an Atlas/Craftsman lathe ... small, bench top and an all around good hobby lathe. Spare parts are bountiful and fairly inexpensive.

Not much help on the small knee mill. I wouldn't waste my time or money on anything other than a Bridgeport ... but that's just me.

enginerd · Mar 4, 2007

Well, when the real biz shop is being outfitted with machining equipment, it'll most likely get a high end Lathe/Mill setup, however, this for home shop that only needs to have small parts made.

SO, again, without dragging this thread on for pages with repetitive posts saying the same things, people with EXPERIENCE with the setups or similar that were mentioned, would appreciate your info.

So far i've spoken to two people with the JET 9x20's and have also read similar experience's from various websites, and basically they all have their issues haha

Any German or non-chinese manufacturer, or maybe even a high end chinese unit, just trying to see whats out there. Thanks

-lecroix- · Mar 4, 2007

enginerd ... numerous people here have already given you really good advise and information.

No offense man, but what exactly is it you want to hear?

Just being honest when I say that there are NO high quality table top machine tools. There is useless junk and then it gets worse from there.

Regardless of country of origin.

enginerd · Mar 5, 2007

Ok, well from experience, first hand, i'm looking for the best of the **** than

I use CNC equipment for the parts that need to be CNC, but when in a pinch, the night before leaving for a race, having a small table top lathe/mill is nice. Plus, it can be put in a big trailer for race events, very handy.

-lecroix- · Mar 5, 2007

dunno ... can't help ... good luck.

enginerd · Mar 6, 2007

No problem, thats why I asked the forum, b/c a lot of people read it.

I've found some forums dedicated to small machines like this, pretty impressive the following these chinese POS have. There are websites dedicated to modifying them for some pretty ******** use, kind of funny. All that effort for a little table top peice.

I just need to basically turn alum parts for racecars, nothing crazy.

Uncle Buck · Mar 6, 2007

Get an old USA made lathe, a South Bend, Sheldon, Logan, Clausing, Hell, even a well maintained old Atlas or Craftsman would be the best way to go in my estimation. Be patient when buying used, and sooner or later the good stuff will show up

1320stang · Mar 6, 2007

You must have run across the Practical Machinist website and/or mini-lathe.com. It's my understanding that, although the Grizzly tools are made overseas, they are inspected for quality and reworked over here. I too have looked at those Grizzly tools myself, I would be using them in a similar manner as yourself. Some people get it in their mind that there is only one solution to a problem with no alternatives. If you do find the nicest POS lathe and mill, please post about it for the rest of us that aren't going to be making aerospace parts that will go to Pluto either.

cc_rider · Mar 6, 2007

I'd also consider finding a local outfit that has REAL machine tools, and work a deal with them. They can probably make parts for you, especially if your tolerances are open. If they know they can count on X amount of work from you, they might be willing to adjust their rates. Or even see if one of their guys will moonlight for beer money, you never know.

Especially if you're flexible on schedule; if they can fill down-time with one of your jobs, even if it pays them less, they'll take it.

Just an idea.

c.

1320stang · Mar 6, 2007

I think he's wanting quick and easy access to machines for simple things. My buddy started out building drag car chassis. He has a good sized lathe and a mill now, but he didn't originally have either. They don't get used everyday, but they're indispensible when he needs them.

cc_rider · Mar 6, 2007

yeah, I know he'd LIKE to have quick access, but too small/too cheap machine tools aren't worth the trouble. Once you've bought some toolholders, cutters, etc. you've got quite an investment.

c.

enginerd · Mar 6, 2007

Alright, I guess this is going nowhere.

Looks like I'll have to pickup a Haas OL-1/MiniMill.

Purpose of this post, as originally stated, was to get first hand, personal experience with these machines, not debate what my personal needs are, I know what they are.

Thanks for the help though

P.S. I'm a MechE, and design parts to be machined on the big boys (mutlimillion dollar machining centers)...I know what a good manufacturing environment requires. Last minute clamps and bushings for a Circuit Clubrace car does not require a 40"+ $5k+ lathe from 2-3 decades ago. Plus, those are not to friendly when you try to load them into the rig for a road trip...

-lecroix- · Mar 6, 2007

enginerd said:
Alright, I guess this is going nowhere.

Looks like I'll have to pickup a Haas OL-1/MiniMill ...

Check out the Haas TL-1 and TM-1 first ... your money would be waaay better spent there.

enginerd said:
Purpose of this post, as originally stated, was to get first hand, personal experience with these machines,

And that is EXACTLY the advice you have been given ... from people with "first hand experience."

enginerd said:
P.S. I'm a MechE, and design parts to be machined on the big boys (mutlimillion dollar machining centers)...I know what a good manufacturing environment requires.

umm-kay ... so why are you asking for machine tool advice on an Internet forum that is geared towards hand tools? :wtf:

P.S. M.E. here too. :bounce:

enginerd · Mar 6, 2007

Tl-1, Tm-1....Whatever falls off the back of the truck will work

OT: I'm actually venturing out of engineering because I want to make a lot more money. Realized early engineering just is not going to cut it.

-lecroix- · Mar 6, 2007

Same path I took approx. 7-8 years ago ... best move I ever made concerning my personal happiness ... not to mention my finances.

enginerd · Mar 7, 2007

Yep. Thankfully I've grown up around extremely successful people, and have seen what makes people happy.

Money definitely plays a big part, but family does moreso.

Also, I'm still very young, and I'm not regretting the engineering degree (especially since its from a top university), it comes in very handy, and is a very nice base for other careers in the way it makes you "think outside the box" and really step back and analyze everything.

Right now I'm learning about Investments and getting some big biz ventures together.

Can those small Haas machines be used "efficiently" for machining one off parts by hand?

wilbilt · Mar 7, 2007

One thing that's always bothered me about engineers...too many of them have never got their hands dirty learning how "tab A" fits into "slot B" before they go out designing bridges and such.

They send me a proposal, and I send them back the questions about how and why. Their response is generally "blink...blink" like a deer in the headlights. They don't have a clue about actual physical reality.

Engineers and architects with their degrees. Bah. Sometimes you find one that has done actual work in the field. A rare find, indeed, and quite valuable.

-lecroix- · Mar 7, 2007

wilbilt said:
One thing that's always bothered me about engineers...too many of them have never got their hands dirty learning how "tab A" fits into "slot B" before they go out designing bridges and such.

They send me a proposal, and I send them back the questions about how and why. Their response is generally "blink...blink" like a deer in the headlights. They don't have a clue about actual physical reality.

Engineers and architects with their degrees. Bah. Sometimes you find one that has done actual work in the field. A rare find, indeed, and quite valuable.

Totally understand your point and agree FULLY. I worked in a machine shop, under many engineers, for 16 years before going back to get my degree. I can honestly say that my "practical experience" has opened way more doors career-wise for me than my sheep skin.

enginerd · Mar 7, 2007

-lecroix- said:
Totally understand your point and agree FULLY. I worked in a machine shop, under many engineers, for 16 years before going back to get my degree. I can honestly say that my "practical experience" has opened way more doors career-wise for me than my sheep skin.

Thats a big benefit of being a motorsport nut

There is no way to NOT get your hands dirty!

I worked for a defense contractor in 2005 designing Mobile Command Centers, and they required the engineers (all 5 of us lol small firm, huge projects) to interact daily with the inhouse fabrication shop and get involved with each project they complete. Was a fun contract position, but I need to do something to give me finances to pay for racing and a lot different lifestyle that I want.

dbleskey · Mar 8, 2007

Not to highjack the thread, but I'm an engineer as well. Plenty of criticism either way for engineers and the trades. I have over 31 years in the business and the one thing I see in a truly successful project is the engineers and the trades doing it together. IMHO there is no other way. I have experienced the train wrecks created by arrogant engineers as well as arrogant tradesmen. My brother is a welder and my other brother is a steel worker. What’s great, besides the jokes and hard times we give each other, is that they as well as many other craftsmen, equipment and facility operators is that they can do more to perfect my design than any Masters Degree ever could. What’s great is we are all a bunch of self-proclaimed handymen who get more from each other than each of us alone. I have many times had clients, engineers and politicians, want an “engineered” solution when all that is needed is to go out to the site and ask the welder or the electrician and than just have the engineer make sure it meets the codes (although the trades know the codes anyway) or to check to make sure it can be done on paper, the old CYA for the customer. It is a collaborative effort and success is based on this more than anything. But I gotta admit, it troubles me to no end that education away from the trades in high school, vocational school, especially in this Country is hurting our ability to do the job right. There is no doubt that engineer’s that have been in the trenches are far better that the high degreed theorists. The other thing is trust, it just seems to me that there are a few idiots with the people skills of a stone that will leave a terrible impression on people and that is something that is not only counter productive, expensive but also a missed opportunity to enjoy creating something. It is a team effort. Sorry for the rant, but IMO it’s the combination that make it worth it. Oh, and yeah I think the trades are getting the screw and I am a fiscal conservative. Fair dollar for fair work.

Gosh I gotta stop. The bridge is not getting designed!!

With apologies to those that are offended (not)

bmwpower · Mar 8, 2007

Don't know if this is a consideration or not, but I figured I'd post it anyway just in case. Not familiar with the differences between lathes.

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/290162274.html

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/289327173.html

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/289318942.html

-lecroix- · Mar 8, 2007

Either of those South Bends would make great home shop lathes. The Rockwell may be a little harder to find replacement parts for.

Small Metal Lathe/Mill Experience, best bang for the buck?

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