Workbench legs: 4x4s vs sistered 2x4s

Brinskan · Feb 23, 2011

Just wanted to share something I learned this weekend.

I've spent incredibly too much time researching workbenches over the past two months. I have just moved to LA and I'm in the process of outfitting my new 19x19 two car. Since I am tight on space I am trying to build a bench that serves a ton of purposes.

Anyway, I had originally planned to notch some 4x4s as legs. While I realize that sistering 2x4s is quite easier, I really like the look of a 2x4 frenched into a 4x4.

Now, I knew two 2x4s sistered would be stronger than a 4x4 since you have opposing grains, what I didn't realize is that 4x4s are actually cut from the core of the tree which is the weakest part of the tree (thanks Dad for the lesson in lumber). So a standard 4x4 is actually much weaker than two 2x4s side by side. I bring this up because i have read a lot on this blog and no one has ever mentioned this. The only thing I have seen mentioned about the difference in doing 4x4's vs 2x4s is the ease of sistering vs notching.

So, the moral of the story is sistered 2x4s are much stronger than 4x4s. Granted 4x4s when used vertically are still rather strong for most applications, but should never be used horizontally for something structural.

digdug18 · Feb 23, 2011

sistered 2x4's sounds like something you'd find in a west virginia cathouse

MoonRise · Feb 23, 2011

Also remember and remind yourself (repeatedly, if need be ... ) that two 2x4 is NOT dimensionally the same as a 4x4.

In this case, two 2x does NOT equal a 4x.

(BTDT)

Frank The Plumber · Feb 23, 2011

M' Kay. I'll throw a little **** in your sausage mix. If you slice 4, 4 " wide strips of 3/4 plywood into lengths and do a pressure glue up match plane the faces, and edge router the ends you end up with a laminated post that is roughly 25 times stronger than your 2x4, dimensionally much more stable as it is properly dried and a lot more, shall we say **** to look at.

spongerich · Feb 23, 2011

Brinskan said:
what I didn't realize is that 4x4s are actually cut from the core of the tree which is the weakest part of the tree

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. (Dad might be thinking about "peeler cores") I think if you look at the end grain of a bunch of 2x4's and 4x4's down at your local home center, I think you'll find that that they come from essentially random sections of the trees. It's not like they cut a bunch of 2x4's around the outside and leave a 4x4 in the center.

trbomax · Feb 23, 2011

2 2x6's with a 1/2" plywood between them,glued and then ripped down to a full 4". I would use 1/4x 3x3 angle for the whole thing,but thats me. The wood bench definitly has more "coolness",thats what I had in the old shop,but steel is quicker and more ridged. A wood top assy with steel legs and frame??

Killer95Stang · Feb 23, 2011

I used six 4 X 4 posts as the legs for my 2' X 8' bench... I could probably park my truck on top of this bench without it having any problems supporting the weight.

Either way you decide, is going to be plenty strong for a work bench, so don't over think this. Spent 10 minutes to make a sketch, then go buy some wood and have at it. Two months of planning and to still be at this point, is just too long. You must work for Caltrans?

mp23 · Feb 23, 2011

Killer95Stang said:
I used six 4 X 4 posts as the legs for my 2' X 8' bench... I could probably park my truck on top of this bench without it having any problems supporting the weight.

Either way you decide, is going to be plenty strong for a work bench, so don't over think this. Spent 10 minutes to make a sketch, then go buy some wood and have at it. Two months of planning and to still be at this point, is just too long. You must work for Caltrans?

He's right you are worrying to much. I just built one by using 4x4's for the front and a 2x6 into the wall. used joice hangers for support in the middleI had over 400 lbs on it no problem. Have about a 100 bucks into a 8 foot bench 40 dollars of which is the oak plywood. For that amount if you hate it just re do it.

Lotek · Feb 23, 2011

Frank The Plumber said:
M' Kay. I'll throw a little **** in your sausage mix. If you slice 4, 4 " wide strips of 3/4 plywood into lengths and do a pressure glue up match plane the faces, and edge router the ends you end up with a laminated post that is roughly 25 times stronger than your 2x4, dimensionally much more stable as it is properly dried and a lot more, shall we say **** to look at.

As long as we are flinging the poo, half of the plies in your laminated plywood post do nothing for rigidity or strength, they are going the wrong direction. :dunno:

but if you make a box column out of plywood... :willy_nil

I did sleep in a holiday inn... :beer:

bww_mnm · Feb 23, 2011

Lotek said:
As long as we are flinging the poo, half of the plies in your laminated plywood post do nothing for rigidity or strength, they are going the wrong direction. but if you make a box column out of plywood...

I did sleep in a holiday inn...

but, they keep the "good half of the pys" stable

Lotek · Feb 23, 2011

Killer95Stang said:
I used six 4 X 4 posts as the legs for my 2' X 8' bench... I could probably park my truck on top of this bench without it having any problems supporting the weight.

Either way you decide, is going to be plenty strong for a work bench, so don't over think this. Spent 10 minutes to make a sketch, then go buy some wood and have at it. Two months of planning and to still be at this point, is just too long. You must work for Caltrans?

Nah, if he worked for Caltrans, he would have built it, and had to take it apart again because it was too low. :lol_hitti

bczygan · Feb 23, 2011

Sistered material is weaker than solid stock, even when the same dimension. This is because the fastening method (Bolts , nails or screws) is only at certain places. Gluing would add strength depending on the glue used.
There is 4x4 engineered lumber material. Weyerhauser makes a Timberstrand 4x4 (3 1/2x3 1/2) that is about 1 1/2 times as strong as sawn lumber when used as a column.
Engineered lumber gains strength over sawn stock because it is more uniform and because the narrow strips are glued together with glues that are stronger than the wood material.

SPDMETL · Feb 23, 2011

I used single 2x4's and I'm sure it's gonna be just fine !

semi75 · Feb 23, 2011

I agree with most of your post but disagree with not using 2x lumber vertically for structual support. 4x or 6x posts for example are generally used on 8ft centers for pole barns. They are used because they are strong and quite easy to set and easy and work with. A lot of the engineers will tell you that laminating 4 2x6s together is a stronger support but it is also a pain in the **** and the lumber these days is grown fast, cut and dried fast and prone to not being flat and straight. Plus have you ever watched the new mills and how they beat the **** out of the boards? That makes it a little hard to laminate multiple 2x's together easily in the field.

A number of pole barn builders in my area are going to laminated 2xs and or a mix of 2x and posts. One family of builders that mix will use 6x6 posts on 8ft center, run a 2x8 vertical support on each side of the post tops and have a 6x6 cut of nailed between the supports and then run a 2x6 vertically between the posts with a bottom plate 2x6 virtually giving you 4 ft center supports. Add in 2x6 stringers instead of 2x4 and all large opening doors are framed with laminated 2xs. These guys build great frame post buildings that beats any I have seen by Morton or Walters. I wish I had taken lesson from them before building my
30x40 myself

Sorry I'm getting way off topic.

srmofo · Feb 23, 2011

I cant find a straight 4x4 in a box store these days. The douglas fir post they (HD) sell look nice, But im sure by the time you get them home and into your garage they will twist up like a pretzel in no time.

Either way you're not going to crush a 4x4 (or 2x4 for that matter) vertically on a simple home work bench

Justanoldguy · Feb 23, 2011

MoonRise said:
Also remember and remind yourself (repeatedly, if need be ... ) that two 2x4 is NOT dimensionally the same as a 4x4.

In this case, two 2x does NOT equal a 4x.

(BTDT)

Well in NZ it is.
Makes for good compatibility in framing.
All framing timber is multiples of 2" timber (1 7/8" finished) :beer:

Frank The Plumber · Feb 23, 2011

Lotek said:
As long as we are flinging the poo, half of the plies in your laminated plywood post do nothing for rigidity or strength, they are going the wrong direction. but if you make a box column out of plywood...

I did sleep in a holiday inn...

Make it 3 3/8 wide and cap an end to account for side shear. Lets get really fancy and use certified shoring plywood. OHSA rated, 9 plys of hardwood with a water proof bonding adhesive.

WVBrady · Feb 23, 2011

digdug18 said:
sistered 2x4's sounds like something you'd find in a west virginia cathouse

Hey, watch it neighbor. I know some Pennsylvania jokes too! :bounce:

volvo · Feb 23, 2011

>>>>Anyway, I had originally planned to notch some 4x4s as legs. While I realize that sistering 2x4s is quite easier, I really like the look of a 2x4 frenched into a 4x4.
>>>>

There you go getting all technical on me again.....Just hold up the spread sheet so I can see how much $$ saved. Thanks for the great info.

KrisKustomPaint · Feb 23, 2011

I made mine from quarter sawn 6x6's its all hand notched (not very well, mind you) Its far stronger than it needs to be. Either way two 2x4's or a 4x4 the majority of the strength comes from how the legs are braced and the quality of the joints.

santagary · Feb 24, 2011

semi75 said:
I agree with most of your post but disagree with not using 2x lumber vertically for structual support. 4x or 6x posts for example are generally used on 8ft centers for pole barns. They are used because they are strong and quite easy to set and easy and work with. A lot of the engineers will tell you that laminating 4 2x6s together is a stronger support but it is also a pain in the **** and the lumber these days is grown fast, cut and dried fast and prone to not being flat and straight. Plus have you ever watched the new mills and how they beat the **** out of the boards? That makes it a little hard to laminate multiple 2x's together easily in the field.

A number of pole barn builders in my area are going to laminated 2xs and or a mix of 2x and posts. One family of builders that mix will use 6x6 posts on 8ft center, run a 2x8 vertical support on each side of the post tops and have a 6x6 cut of nailed between the supports and then run a 2x6 vertically between the posts with a bottom plate 2x6 virtually giving you 4 ft center supports. Add in 2x6 stringers instead of 2x4 and all large opening doors are framed with laminated 2xs. These guys build great frame post buildings that beats any I have seen by Morton or Walters. I wish I had taken lesson from them before building my
30x40 myself Sorry I'm getting way off topic.

CLEARY buildings has used laminated 2/6's for years, including my big barn...I watched them build it and there were no PITA issues I guarantee you.

TN_GARAGE · Feb 24, 2011

Killer95Stang said:
Either way you decide, is going to be plenty strong for a work bench, so don't over think this.

I tend to agree

Build this one and give it a good workout so you'll know what changes you might want to make for your next one. Believe me, there will be a next one (doesn't take much time to turn a workbench into a storage locker

)

KenS · Feb 24, 2011

Why do we all over-build workbenches?

c_mccann · Feb 24, 2011

x2- we are talking about sistering 2x6 material to support a table that will support what? 4x4's can hold up a house, benches hold broken motors, small machinery, wood projects and tools. 4x4's are just fine, I suggest finding nice dry, clear 4x4's. If the weight is an issue, ie: keeping the table stable while negotiating items in a vice or messy disassmbly tasks, weigh the table down. But, a 8'x30" table with a 1 1/2" top and 4x4 legs and a couple of shelves is probably easily a 175# table..

srmofo · Feb 24, 2011

KenS said:
Why do we all over-build workbenches?

For years of abuse,

srmofo · Feb 24, 2011

KenS said:
Why do we all over-build workbenches?

For years of abuse,

therealwormey · Feb 24, 2011

KenS said:
Why do we all over-build workbenches?

srmofo said:
For years of abuse,

and because some of us dont just sit heavy stuff on the bench,we bolt vises to them and beat and fram and twist the **** out of stuff.i would rather have overkill than a bench falling or twisting or moving when i need it to stay put.i like em attatched to walls, angled braces and just overkill in general

58Yeoman · Feb 24, 2011

Horizontal surfaces just collect dust and junk...shouldn't have any in a garage.

srmofo · Feb 24, 2011

58Yeoman said:
Horizontal surfaces just collect dust and junk...shouldn't have any in a garage.

Sounds like this guy can actually park a car in his garage :lol_hitti

bczygan · Feb 24, 2011

I like a lot of the ideas on the journal relating to storage and work surfaces. I can see how a combination of surface types, fixed and movable storage and work benches and carts could make for a very usable space that can easily transform to accommodate a variety of tasks. I want to design and build a workbench that is very sturdy, movable (But able to be locked in place)and has enough mass to resist heavy loads and work. I'm thinking that large lockable casters that can also be somehow raised so legs will rest on the floor? Is there such a thing? A massive top formed by 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 maple boards on edge that are glued and drawn together with threaded rods and recessed nuts. Maybe a 3/8"steel top that can be lowered onto it for welding?

chase237 · Feb 24, 2011

Other than the corner where you might mount a vise, none of the really matter as much as the horizontal frame and or top. IMO. It never ceases to amaze me when I see so much effort put into legs only to see a 2X4 nailed thru drywall for a ledger and topped with 1/2" plywood cuz it was cheaper.
Soon as you start hammering on that birdhouse you're building and all your little brads bounce onto the floor, you see what I mean.
Moral of the story, build it like you need to park your car on top of it.

Brinskan · Feb 24, 2011

chase237 said:
Moral of the story, build it like you need to park your car on top of it.

Yup!

spongerich said:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. (Dad might be thinking about "peeler cores") I think if you look at the end grain of a bunch of 2x4's and 4x4's down at your local home center, I think you'll find that that they come from essentially random sections of the trees. It's not like they cut a bunch of 2x4's around the outside and leave a 4x4 in the center.

Yes, I realize all 4x4s are not made from cores, but it does seem that the majority of the ones you find at the box stores are. Though it seems the 10ft lengths are often a better selection.

Killer95Stang said:
Either way you decide, is going to be plenty strong for a work bench, so don't over think this. Spent 10 minutes to make a sketch, then go buy some wood and have at it. Two months of planning and to still be at this point, is just too long. You must work for Caltrans?

HAHA... I've spent so much time planning because I have been traveling ever since I moved to LA, which equals too many nights lurking on Garage Journal in hotels.

bill9860 · Feb 25, 2011

I agree that using single 2x4 wold be plenty strong. I did use "sistered" 2x4's on mine. It was easy and plenty strong. Agree with comment that 4x4 may be stronger, but I can't think of anyhting I will do that this won't hold.

DRP6833 · Feb 25, 2011

spongerich said:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. (Dad might be thinking about "peeler cores")...

I saw an item in a magazine a few months back in reference to pressure treated lumber. According to the article, 8' long 4x4s are generally "peeler cores" that are have been used for plywood veneer. The concern here wasn't strength as much as warpage. It suggested buying 10' 4x4s and cutting them down.

As mentioned, a quick look at the end grain will tell the tale...

JohnMcD348 · Feb 26, 2011

Thanks for that insight. I hadn't heard that before on the differences in 4x4's. I'll remember that when I go buy my wood in the coming weeks. The only problem I find is that my local Lowes only seems to sell the 8' lengths other than the dark pressure treated lengths. I want to finish and varnish my bench when it's all done.

Workbench legs: 4x4s vs sistered 2x4s

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