Are double pawl ratchet mechanisms ideal?

MaximRecoil · Mar 7, 2011

Fine tooth ratchets seem to be all the rage these days, but it seems to me that a fine tooth ratchet mechanism would be weaker than a course tooth ratchet mechanism, all else being equal; plus I've read that you need to use light oil in them because grease interferes with their operation.

With a double pawl you can have the strength of course teeth, use grease, but have the small degree of arc that fine teeth have. For example, I count 82 distinct clicks (give or take; not sure if I counted perfectly) on my Blackhawk 34945A ratchet, with every other click sounding slightly different (because the clicks alternately come from two pawls). That gives 4.4°, which is about the same as the Snap-on Dual 80's 4.5°, but it accomplishes it with about half the number of teeth, and it also accomplished it ages ago.

GeorgiaHybrid · Mar 7, 2011

Modern fine tooth dual pawls do not engage on just one or two teeth and often have 6 to 8 or more in contact. That makes them a lot stronger than the older "coarse tooth" designs for the most part.

You can also use grease in the new fine tooth ratchets (a lot of us on here do) and Super Lube Synthetic Grease is the factory lube in Snap-on's 80 tooth series.

MaximRecoil · Mar 7, 2011

GeorgiaHybrid said:
Modern fine tooth dual pawls do not engage on just one or two teeth and often have 6 to 8 or more in contact. That makes them a lot stronger than the older "coarse tooth" designs for the most part.

Who makes fine tooth dual pawl ratchets?

By the way, having more ridges on the pawl(s) contacting the teeth does not necessarily make a fine tooth mechanism stronger than a course tooth mechanism. To find that out, one would have to do some math (assuming equal materials and design). It comes down to a matter of size (i.e., one large engagement area may be bigger than several smaller ones).

You can also use grease in the new fine tooth ratchets (a lot of us on here do) and Super Lube Synthetic Grease is the factory lube in Snap-on's 80 tooth series.

Is that a lighter grease than typical bearing/chassis grease like you would use on cars? Either way, I've read several accounts on this forum from people who have had problems with grease in fine tooth mechanisms, but I don't recall all the details (like what type of grease specifically or what type of ratchet).

kc-steve · Mar 7, 2011

MaximRecoil said:
Who makes fine tooth dual pawl ratchets . . .

I just bought a couple of Wright's 3/8" ratchets that are dual-pawl fine tooth. They feel awesome. Haven't used them yet though. The stamp on the handle says, "Oil Only."

Steve

MaximRecoil · Mar 7, 2011

kc-steve said:
I just bought a couple of Wright's 3/8" ratchets that are dual-pawl fine tooth. They feel awesome. Haven't used them yet though. The stamp on the handle says, "Oil Only."

Steve

Yeah, I noticed that Wright recommends light oil only, though I'm sure it would be fine with ordinary grease. It is only a 41 tooth mechanism, same as my Blackhawk (and my Blackhawk feels smoother and quieter with grease than with oil). The double pawls allow both the Wright and the Blackhawk to function as 82-tooth mechanisms, without having to resort to fine teeth.

tuzzy · Jun 26, 2012

Favorite ratchet, My blackhawk 34549a dual pawl 41 tooth is nowhere near as smooth operating as a fine tooth tooth ratchet but it is much better than a single pawl 46 thooth and its design does work giving me nearly as small a swing arc to engage the next tooth as a HF 72 tooth ratchet.

twincam00 · Jun 26, 2012

fine tooth ratchet are not necessarily weaker than coarse tooth ones. the casual observer thinks "oh this one is rough so it must be really strong"

Snap-on dealers have been saying they warranty less dual-80's than the previous 36 tooth design

As mentioned before Snap-on uses Super Lube grease in their ratchets, thats all I use and have had no problems

superautobacs · Jun 26, 2012

Fine-tooth, particularly round heads, offer the highest resistance to failure. The drive end would shear off before the mechanism itself fails.

The inherent negative feature of a double-pawl, round head ratchet is their height, and the back stroke drag.

Outlawmws · Jun 26, 2012

MaximRecoil said:
Who makes fine tooth dual pawl ratchets?

By the way, having more ridges on the pawl(s) contacting the teeth does not necessarily make a fine tooth mechanism stronger than a course tooth mechanism. To find that out, one would have to do some math (assuming equal materials and design). It comes down to a matter of size (i.e., one large engagement area may be bigger than several smaller ones).

Is that a lighter grease than typical bearing/chassis grease like you would use on cars? Either way, I've read several accounts on this forum from people who have had problems with grease in fine tooth mechanisms, but I don't recall all the details (like what type of grease specifically or what type of ratchet).

There were quite a number of companies selling the same mechanism as the Craftsman RHFT ratchets from the early 70's on. Handle styles may have varied, but the unit inside the head was the same basic unit.

Most grease issues are from OVER greasing, even packing the head with grease. A light coating of a reasonably light grease is all you need. most any High shear/pressure oil would do the same.

GeorgiaHybrid said:
Modern fine tooth dual pawls do not engage on just one or two teeth and often have 6 to 8 or more in contact. That makes them a lot stronger than the older "coarse tooth" designs for the most part.

You can also use grease in the new fine tooth ratchets (a lot of us on here do) and Super Lube Synthetic Grease is the factory lube in Snap-on's 80 tooth series.

Neither do the RHFT craftsman ratchets (and others of that design...) So to say the "modern" FT ratchets are stronger isn't necessarily so. Most ratchets have a failure point other than the Pawls or teeth anyway. If the teeth fail it was likely because of dirt/grit inside that did not allow the pawl to fully engage.

superautobacs said:
Fine-tooth, particularly round heads, offer the highest resistance to failure. The drive end would shear off before the mechanism itself fails.

The inherent negative feature of a double-pawl, round head ratchet is their height, and the back stroke drag.

Any ratchet has that issue, depending on the spring tension used, which is why spring clipping is a popular mod.

otis66 · Jun 26, 2012

GeorgiaHybrid said:
Modern fine tooth dual pawls do not engage on just one or two teeth and often have 6 to 8 or more in contact. That makes them a lot stronger than the older "coarse tooth" designs for the most part.

You can also use grease in the new fine tooth ratchets (a lot of us on here do) and Super Lube Synthetic Grease is the factory lube in Snap-on's 80 tooth series.

This is why I like Wright ratchets.

TwoInch · Jun 27, 2012

superautobacs said:
....The inherent negative feature of a double-pawl, round head ratchet is their height, and the back stroke drag.

my JH williams B-52 has nearly zero back stroke drag, less than any of the other 20 something ratchets i own. im assuming this is a trait of the B and S superratchets, unless i got a fluke.

bcradio · Jun 27, 2012

superautobacs said:
The inherent negative feature of a double-pawl, round head ratchet is their height, and the back stroke drag.

My Wright 3/8 dual pawl definitely has the most drag out of any ratchet I own. This is by a long shot too. It just sits in the ol' toolbox doing nothing now.

SMKS · Jun 27, 2012

bcradio said:
My Wright 3/8 dual pawl definitely has the most drag out of any ratchet I own. This is by a long shot too. It just sits in the ol' toolbox doing nothing now.

My Wright 3490 does have more back drag than some other ratchets, but not a lot more. But it has never caused any issue for me when I'm using it.

Have you had any issues using the ratchet because of it, or do you just not like the back drag, so you choose not to use it?

andywander · Jun 27, 2012

Multiple teeth in mesh will always be a compromise-it is much more difficult, if not impossible to have them all in contact at the same time.

One big tooth is more likely to have the whole surface in engagement.

5mall5nail5 · Jun 27, 2012

Can you guys explain wtf a dual pawl is? Pics may help.

HandyManny · Jun 27, 2012

MaximRecoil said:
Fine tooth ratchets seem to be all the rage these days, but it seems to me that a fine tooth ratchet mechanism would be weaker than a course tooth ratchet mechanism, all else being equal; plus I've read that you need to use light oil in them because grease interferes with their operation.

With a double pawl you can have the strength of course teeth, use grease, but have the small degree of arc that fine teeth have. For example, I count 82 distinct clicks (give or take; not sure if I counted perfectly) on my Blackhawk 34945A ratchet, with every other click sounding slightly different (because the clicks alternately come from two pawls). That gives 4.4°, which is about the same as the Snap-on Dual 80's 4.5°, but it accomplishes it with about half the number of teeth, and it also accomplished it ages ago.

As long as you are using a ratchet for what it was designed for you shouldn't have to worry about weaker or stronger. Ratchets are for faster losening of snug threads when installing or removing nuts/bolts, etc. Anything that's really tight should be first broken free with a breaker bar or box wrench. Same for final tightening if you want to snug it tight without any torque specs. For specific torque there are some different choices, beam or clicker styles of wrenches. I think too many people today may not know any better, but a ratchet isn't designed or intended to be torquing down or breaking lose really tight fasteners, though many ratchets do take on that load very well. Better get my flame suite on now

TwoInch · Jun 27, 2012

5mall5nail5 said:
Can you guys explain wtf a dual pawl is? Pics may help.

usually a dual pawl ratchet is a fine tooth ratchet, without having "fine teeth". they have a smaller number of teeth usually in the 40 tooth range, but have an odd number of teeth. the odd number (41t example) keep the two pawls out of synch with each other. as one pawl is coming out of engagement, the other pawl is starting to engage. one pawl is on the points of the teeth as the other is actually engaged into the teeth. this effectively doubles the tooth count, without making fine teeth on the gear.

here is a break down of a dual pawl ratchet in detail, and explanation.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36498

Are double pawl ratchet mechanisms ideal?

MaximRecoil

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GeorgiaHybrid

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kc-steve

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tuzzy

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twincam00

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